Understanding the metaphysics of presence can assist in this effort.
— Mikie
So, metaphysics of presence as opposed to what?
— L'éléphant — 180 Proof
:fire:As opposed to what is absent, hidden, concealed. Which is far greater than what’s merely present before us.
I like to think of it as studying unconscious (absence) behavior as opposed to conscious behavior. — Mikie
:sparkle: :roll: wtfI'm "reading" Energy" in a "Metaphysical way" instead of a Physical way. — Gnomon
Understanding the metaphysics of presence can assist in this effort. — Mikie
So, metaphysics of presence as opposed to what? — L'éléphant
:up: :up:Philosophy has all too often been an assault upon everydayness. Originally in the ancient West, though, it was vitally concerned with the best way to live our lives. I think that's a worthy inquiry. I don't look to an unrepentant Nazi like Heidegger for guidance in that regard. — Ciceronianus
Wisdom. :fire:We live in and are part of an environment. Our minds are part of it because we're part of it. All we know, all we feel, all we do results from and are part of our interaction with it. That is what's "natural" to me.
To the extent our interaction with the rest of nature indicates certain conduct and information is useful and beneficial, we may come to rely on it and it may become customary. But we should always be willing to accept that our judgments and conduct are subject to change when what is learned through further interaction establishes change is appropriate. What's customary may become inadequate or undesirable. I consider that to be common sense. — Ciceronianus
:roll: Misplaced concreteness? Occam's Razor?So why not reify that which is invisible & intangible? — Gnomon
... those who assume "there are two kinds of people" and those who don't.Why? Because there are two kinds of people ... — Constance
To what end? :chin:by ignoring what everydayness and its sciences has to say, in order to discover the essential structure of this everydayness
(Emphasis is mine.)Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity. For the crowd believes that if it cannot see to the bottom of something it must be profound. It is so timid and dislikes going into the water. — Freddy Zarathustra, TGS
:up: :up:I wouldn't 'reify' energy as I wouldn't reify any other physical quantities. — boundless
:up: à la Spiniza's substance (natura naturans (i.e. "the Whole" ~ physical laws)) and modes (natura naturata (e.g. universes, bodies, minds)).... the Whole of which we human persons are a minuscule particle. It's as-if the metaphorical One is an ocean and I am a sentient molecule [drop] of water, ignorant of its own all-encompassing habitat. — Gnomon
In other words, whatever is "asserted ... relies on" grammar (Ludwig W., Freddy N.).“Only contingency is necessary,” when asserted universally, already relies on theunconditionedintelligibility it claims to exclude. — Esse Quam Videri
:up: Yes, "an intelligible order" more or less is a grammar for discursive practices (or like language games within a particular form of life).Think of an intelligible order as a scheme or system of rationality. Within that order or map, things work a certain way, according to certain criteria. — Joshs
Please clarify the difference between "conceptual" and "metaphysical" in this context.This only establishes conceptual possibility, not metaphysical possibility. — Relativist
Exactly. :up:I take the OP as asking if there are any necessary individuals - things. Not "are there necessary propositions?" or "Are there necessary truths?".
So set aside "Meillassoux's "Absolute" and look at
every existing thing... can be conceived of as not existing... without contradiction (i.e. negating a "necessary thing").
— 180 Proof
...which can be seen as an informal version of my more formal argument. — Banno
Btw, this (implicit) reification fallacy – ergo, substance duality – is merely reminiscent of Plato's question-begging (thereby unparsimonious and proto-Gnostic) "Theory of Forms" that as a consequence is imho more mythical than metaphysical.... metaphysical necessity. The very act of conceiving ~X presupposes a stable intelligible order — Esse Quam Videri
There's a small notion of necessity as that which must be the case in order for something else to be the case - If you would read this post, it is necessary that you read English. There is a broader notion of necessity as what is true in all possible worlds - that two and two is four. They are not the same. — Banno
:up: :up:I don't agree that those terms do most coherently refer to representations or perceptual experiences. They don't refer to appearances but rather to what appears. — Janus
Two questions:On this view, the persistence of objects or the world does not depend on individual observers, but on mind-at-large itself. — Tom Storm
.... describes or does not describe an objective state of affairs?have subjective and objective aspects — Joshs
No. Only contingency is necessary (Q. Meillassoux's "Absolute") insofar as, without exception, every existing thing / fact (X) can be conceived of as not existing, or not being the case, (~X) without contradiction (i.e. negating a "necessary thing").Is there anythingthat exists necessarily? — QuixoticAgnostic
... which is or is not how things are objectively (re: noumena)? :chin:materiality is agential or ‘subjective’ in itself — Joshs
Welcome to the club! :up:↪Wayfarer Since you seem to be incapable of cogent discussion in good faith, I'll leave you to wallow in your confusion. — Janus
Exactly. :100:All our thinking is dualistic anyway. As soon as you start talking about all experiences of things being the experiences of a subject, you have already entered Cartesian territory ... Even saying that we do not see reality as it is in itself is a product of dualistic thinking and cements the dualism even further. — Janus
:up: :up:Consciousness does emerge from structural relations of non conscious entities, and consciousness is the precondition for identifying those relationships in the first place. This circularity results in the hard problem, but the hard problem, like all problems, is epistemic. We, as conscious beings, may face an insurmountable barrier in explaining consciousness itself. But from this apparent epistemic barrier it cannot be concluded that consciousness has no naturalistic explanation. Just that we might never get to it. — hypericin
Wooooooooooo :sparkle: :lol:My point was simply that Energy is not a tangible material substance, but a postulated immaterial causal force (similar to electric potential) that can have detectable (actual) effects in the real world : similar to the spiritual belief in ghosts. — Gnomon
So what's your point?However, the subject is not. — Wayfarer
"Transcendence" to what end or for what purpose?My understanding of what Wilber means by contemplation is both of speculative reflection and experience of a mystical nature [ ... ] suggesting that meditation is 'a sustained instrumental path of transcendence'. — Jack Cummins
And yet "Wilbur argues", which you cite, "sense and scientific reason cannot grasp the Absolute"?! Apophatics makes much more sense to me, Jack.His understanding of the absolute is ...
Yes, because "subjectivity" (like e.g. humanity or infinity) is merely an abstraction. Subjects, however, are concrete objects and directly or indirectly perceiveable as points out.subjectivity is not a possible object of perception — Wayfarer
I think de-individualization is more precise than "immersion" describes what Heidegger is after.There is a desire for immersion at play here — Paine
No, sir, that's quite fair actually. :smirk:doubt this the work of this despicable, loathsome excuse for a human being had anything signi[fi]cant to do with the creation of Nazism. Rather, he supported it as best he could because it was consistent with his twisted romanticism and mysticism, and in the hope he would be considered its philosopher.
Is this too over the top? — Ciceronianus
It would seem so.Are right and wrong understood as indirect indicators of taking Being seriously ["authenticity"]? — Tom Storm
As if Schopenhauer was a rambling, antisocial mystagogue ...The problem for the misanthrope is to figure out how to survive the realization that Heidegger is your brother. — frank
:up: e.g. 'Make A-holes Great Again'.It always struck me that populists don’t really do ideas, they do slogans. — Tom Storm
In the wake of the catastrophic defeat of Kaiser's Germany, Heidegger's amoral (Levinas, Adorno) bifurcating of beings into "authentic" and "inauthentic" (Dasein and Das Man ... us and them) seems to have set up the latter as readymade scapegoats for redeeming (or 'purifying') the former. Imho, 'ir-rationality' did not cause mass murder so much as its willing stupification (Arendt) ironically made it much easier for "The They" to not question / not resist Das Führerprinzip (i.e. banality of evil).The question is: did this longing to ditch rationality turn into in-humanism that set the stage for the Holocaust? — frank
Explain what you / Wilbur mean by this.the nature of the contemplative experience — Jack Cummins
A mere truism. Even if this weren't the case, what cognitive or existential significance would "the Absolute" to non-absolute beings like us?Wilberargued[asserted],
'Kant did not say God doesn't exist_ he said that that sense and scientific reason cannot grasp the Absolute.
Ken Wilbur's "new paradigm" isn't "new" at all. The above vaguely reminds me of Spinoza's three kinds of knowing (which he derives from his distinction of inadequate and adequate perceptions (or ideas)): imagination, reason and intuition – elaborated on in the article below:... three eyes, or modes of knowledge: the sensory or empirical mode, rational thinking and contemplation.
:100:In what sense is our experience not part of the natural world? Why is there any problem with us learning about consciousness in others through inference? Much of scientific knowledge is gathered indirectly and without direct observation. Why is this situation any different? Speaking personally, I don't see that conscious experience is all that special. It's just one more thing for us to learn about. One more thing we encounter as we live our lives. — T Clark
:up:I do see language itself, as opposed to the world, as inherently dualistic. — Janus
:up: :up:My main point was that there is no incoherence or inconsistency in thinking that the physical world existed prior to the advent of consciousness. Science informs us that it did. The fact that such judgement is only possible where there is consciousness (and language for that matter) I see as a mere truism.
:100:Chemical treatments for mental illness seem to show that consciousness is not primary. — frank
:smirk:
It means 'the map(maker) =/= territory' (i.e. epistemically ascribing has (a) referent(s) ontologically in excess of – anterior-posterior to – the subject ascribing, or episteme).The question isn’t “Did the world exist before consciousness?” but “What does it mean to assert existence independently of the conditions under which existence is ascribed at all?” — Wayfarer
:100: Yes ... Merry Xmas.In the same way, energy is not a substance that composes matter. To make an analogy is like saying that coins (physical objects) are made of money (energy). — boundless
:roll:union with spirit
— Ken Wilbur — Jack Cummins
:roll: :rofl:EnFormAction : the power to transform potential Form (design, essence, information) into actual Shapes (structure, matter, hylomorph) and vice versa.Which is what Einstein's equation spells out : (E = MC^2).
What we experience locally as Mass (matter) is proportional to the speed of light, which slows-down to form particles of rest-mass-matter. — Gnomon
:up:
Your appeal to popularity here seems quite lazy.[H]arming others makes me feel shit. It seems to do the same for the majority of people. That's good enough, and the best we can wish for imo. — AmadeusD
