Your welcome, and thanks for your further info. I've heard plenty of these before, and have attempted some. It's a useful list, though; I'm inspired to do more of my own research.

Perhaps I misread it, my bad.

Also be sure to recall the chiastic structure of Hebrew Poetry. "Seven times seven, indeed, Seventy times Seventy." The structure of Job is almost chiastic in a way, and this would indicate that the "intensification" lies in the middle of the book.

Depression is nothing more than lack of self-esteem and identity. The depressed doesn't believe in themselves, they don't believe they have a destiny, they have no faith - nor do they work at creating it. — Agustino

These are definitely some causes of depression. But there's also the "dark night of the soul" that somebody mentioned; the general, unidentifiable existential dread. I wouldn't make the assumption that that shade of depression is caused by low self-esteem. I'd venture to say it's the purest form; a depression born from searching for a meaning in the world and finding none.

What causes depression? Expectations that you deserve X or Y to be given to you. — Agustino

Wait, so low self-esteem (your definition of depression) is caused by unrealistic expectations? Couldn't low self-esteem just as easily be caused by a lack of the receiving of proper care as a child, or any other form of abuse? Neglect, etc? I'd say it's more accurate to say that those childhood abuses lead to low self-esteem, which leads to feelings of depression, for instance. Unrealistic expectations about the world are often a result of that process. They feed depression, and depression feeds them, but I wouldn't assume that the unrealistic expectations are the cause of that cycle. They could be, or they could not be, from case to case.

Who the hell are you to complain and ask why you're suffering, etc.? — Agustino

Tough love has it's place and use, and is a form of wisdom, but the other half of that wisdom is knowing when it to use it, and knowing when to offer someone a gentler form of love. Not all depressed people respond well to tough love, in fact, most probably don't. There's a different prescription for everyone. I can see why this would be your approach, because you think depression comes from unrealistic expectations of what someone deserves, which would be the appropriate time to use the "get your ass in gear" approach. Jesus over-turned the money changers tables, but he also poured oil on the feet of the prostitute.

God told Job no point arguing with me. Who are you to question my decisions? I am the Lord your God, and if I decide to let you suffer, then you will suffer. — Agustino

I don't interpret Job that way. It's meaning is certainly hidden (I think of that Rabbinic tradition of asking questions, not giving answers). People tend to focus on God's epic soliloquy at the end, as you quoted, but why is the vast majority of the book a discussion between Job and his friends, and some soliloquies from Job, etc? The focus of the book is on Job's "unjust" suffering, it would seem. But that's just the thing; the reality is that no suffering is unjust, because suffering comes to the morally blameless and the morally repugnant alike; indeed, suffering is exactly like the great beasts, the huge winds, the storms that God evokes at the end; suffering is heedless, mindless; it's the great tsunami of the human condition; it spares no one, it heeds no cries for help. And why? Because God does not judge based on moral standing. This is the whole crux of the Gospel; indeed, Job is a prophetic book in it's own way. God is a God of unconditional love. No moral perfection that I can attain can put me in or out of good standing with God. God is only ever a being of open arms.

This is a very radical position; one does not normally require that a doctor suffers from every complaint he treats, let alone a philosophical enquirer. But there is certainly some validity, to the extent at least that those who pontificate without either experience or listening will probably miss the mark. — unenlightened

True. Maybe I don't mean for it to be radical; the listening bit is certainly what I was getting at more so. I think with depression, a professional needs to practice open listening, which would be analogous to a medical doctor being thorough in their assessment of a physical malady. I do see too much "pontificating" about depression without first-hand experience. Maybe not so much in this thread.

This is a very clear characterisation that immediately suggests to me a way of understanding depression in terms of an active response to an intolerable and inescapable situation. One creates a dissociated identity as a refuge to preserve oneself from an overwhelming world. 'I' take refuge in the safety of an inner world that cannot be touched by the outer world, only to discover that I have become isolated and cannot in turn touch the world. And from there, one can see at once that there is no help for this dissociated self, either from itself or from the other in the outer world, and the only solution is for it to die.

Fortunately, this psychological death can be accomplished without physical death; indeed physical death does not do it at all. The inner self cannot by any means reach the outer world, but the inner self can end, and then one finds one is already in and part of the outer world. This is a terrifying prospect, to become, as one once was, completely vulnerable to the world, and this terror is what makes it seem impossible. — unenlightened

Thanks, and yes, this is all very accurate I think.

Some people develop quirks and kinks and screwy ideas about the way life is, and these quirky, kinked, and screwed up ideas just don't work in the real world. Trying to dislodge these ideas is very difficult -- and here we're not dealing with some vague disorder as depression. — Bitter Crank

But what exactly are we dealing with, then? At this point, it seems as if the word depression has lost it's meaning, but that's because we keep applying it to a CBT-type definition. What if living in a dysfunctional world and raging against that disfunction is the definition of depression? Cognitive or otherwise?

Are you deeply alienated, in a state of anomie, loneliness, and abandonment? — Bitter Crank

Yes.

Per above, the depressed are not in a good position to analyze their depression. — Bitter Crank

But I addressed my thoughts on that directly above.

Miscommunication continues ad absurdum because (to some extent) there can not be a definitive analysis to which all will readily agree. — Bitter Crank

And this is key. This is the "language", if you will, of depression. A piece-meal conglomeration that is derivative of the experience of depression itself. It's an experience that doesn't avail itself to scientific descriptions because it's an experience of experience itself. This is where the limits of diagnosis come in.

The observable symptoms of depression are not sure signs of depression. There are other reasons for people experiencing these reportable symptoms. — Bitter Crank

What are statements like this even based upon? They're based upon the idea that it's a treatable cognitive malady.

So, for someone like myself who relates to all but a handful of the statements, where does that put me? in the major depressive camp, supposedly. But what does that even mean? Again, it's an an experience of experience.

Talk therapy by a good therapist would seem to be in order. — Bitter Crank

I did this for awhile, and I found it unfulfilling. The therapist just asked me leading questions that seemed to push his own agenda of what my problems were. Of course, I would hope there are better therapists out there. But the experience left me uninterested.

The fact is, the people who might tell us the most about depression (the people who are depressed) are observing their condition with impaired skills. — Bitter Crank

The point I was trying to make to Sapentia is that experience is key. Whether dealing with depression, or mania, or any other mental state...experience is what tells about that state. Those who haven't experienced that state can only observe data. So, this is an age-old conundrum, as I'm sure you'd agree. But, who's word do we take? Sure, the mental state of the depressed is skewed, but, on the other hand, the mental state of the (not) depressed is insufficient, experientially. So, who's word do we take?

People who are deeply alienated, in a state of anomie, loneliness, and abandonment are probably not going to be very articulate about the details of their unhappy state, either. — Bitter Crank

Let me give it a shot. It's like the feeling of being outside of the world, in a glass box, observing "real people" live "real life", while I sit outside, floating in space, observing life and imagining what it would be like if I was "inside"; living real life. It's like I'm a scientist in an observatory, observing far-off life forms enact a theoretical world that I (theoretically) think I want to be a part of.

You know the truth of why therapy works. Because you think it does, — Wosret

No, I don't think that.

Truth is, that you can make someone fall in love with you by asking each other fifty deeply personal questions, answering honestly, and responding positively. — Wosret

Would we really be "in love", though? Would we really love one another in a deep sense? This doesn't pertain to the OP subject, though.

No... I'm afraid that it's nothing you haven't already heard a million times before... that's why it's hardly worth saying in the first place. — Wosret

Right.

You're not going to think of something new. Fine some secret, get an aha moment, or in any way think and suppress your way out of it. — Wosret

I'm unsure what you mean here.

It won't be finding something new, it will be breaking down and accepting something you already know. — Wosret

So, you're saying I should break down and accept the thing that I already know, which is "everyone gets down sometimes"? "No one is truly happy"? And, by breaking down and accepting this, I will have dealt with my depression?

Perhaps this dependency rests of your desire to maintain it? I knew a woman who had constant anxiety, her emotional malady always present despite years passing and I soon realised that despite all the advice given, she was unable to perceive what happiness actually was to her that her happiness almost became the anxiety. — TimeLine

This is another key point. But, the dependency doesn't rest on the desire to maintain it; the dependency rests on an inability to see and act on the skewed way of life one is living. I too know people like this, and am one of these people myself; I'm aware of that. It's not that these people are unaware; it's that they're unable to make the change. There's a certain strength of the will that they (we) lack. there's a certain build-up of emotional and spiritual detritus that leads to an inability to cope with anything, or deal with anything real. This is what leads to the "alternate reality" of the depressed, the addicted, the suicidal. It is exactly that, and don't mistake it: this world is an alternate reality; a nightmare world.

Misery breeds company, no matter how happy you are. No one is truly happy in a miserable world. — Wosret

How does this add to the discussion about depression? This is like my uncle telling me to "buck up", basically. This is a classic example of not being able to empathize with the depressed.

There's something going wrong in the brain/mind of a person who suffers from depression. We don't know the mechanisms behind depression because we lack scientific knowledge of what exactly is going on in the head of a depressive. — Purple Pond

The problem is that the brain is a different organ than the heart, for instance. Depression is an "illness" that has to do with cognition, at the very least. That's a whole different game than congestive heart failure. The heart pumps blood, but it doesn't house the entire neural network that determines how we interface with our experience.

That is factually not true. Most therapy is done through rational means, such as searching for the root cause or trying to figure out what emotions are being held back consciously or unconsciously. — Question

But how does that actually support your claim that the rational/emotional divide "is factually not true"? So, therapy searches for a root cause, it tries to figure out what emotions are being held back. How do those probing actions indicate that the rational/emotional divide is false?

It is what it is, and I think that we should call it what it is, once we know what it is, contrary to Question's approach that we should treat depression as this or that based on how fruitful it will or won't be to do so, regardless of the truth of the matter. — Sapientia

So, do we know what it is? We have to wait until we know what it is to call it what it is? And Question is calling it "this" or "that", which is, what? What it is? Or not? What?

There do exist people who, for periods of time, are genuinely neither depressed, nor coping with depression, but for whom depression has no place in their life. — Sapientia

I may be mistaken, but I don't think anyone was arguing otherwise. Actually, that's a hallmark of this problem; there are those who have never experienced depression. Those people, in fact, don't know what the experience is like, and can therefore add no meaningful thoughts into the discussion.

This leads into the second aspect: unintentional self-sabotage. — 0 thru 9

Your post is really the only worthwhile post in this thread, 0 thru 9. The three aspects you mention, and especially this (gently worded) note about self-sabotage are key points. As a chronic depressive, I agree with everything you say here. I suspect those in contention with these finer points that various folks are bringing up are people who haven't actually dealt with major depression or suicidal thoughts. The cycle of miscommunication continues ad absurdum.

"I summon you to life, hidden aspirations!
You, buried in the dark depths
Of the creative spirit, you, timid
Embryos of life, to you I bring daring."

Depression is a medical condition.

Medical professionals will not necessarily be able to cure your depression. — Terrapin Station

Right...

The stigma needs to be directed towards not getting professional help for it. — Terrapin Station

Wouldn't no stigma be better?

So historical importance makes it important? Or making sense makes it historically important (based on what exactly)? Or what?

Word. Not necessarily obvious, but word.

By what principle?

"You believe what?!?" I seriously thought that people were playing a big practical joke on me--a belief exacerbated by the fact that there are a lot of practical jokers, who'll go to pretty elaborate lengths at times, in my family and among friends. — Terrapin Station

So, an emotional reaction based on experience? Or no?

You can't see the answer here?

Can you explain, or am I too stupid for your sacred response?

Why?

What would be a picture of someone who isn't stupid? Or a society that wasn't stupid?

Ah, I did listen to Tago Mago once, I'll have to listen again. I really like Neu!'s first album, as well as Tangerine Dream's first album, which can be categorized as Krautrock. Kraftwerk's Ralf and Florian is also a hidden gem. Glad you like the Ravel. Here's more:

Cool, what album is that from? I've been on Krautrock binge recently.

Proto-Kraftwerk! Also the namesake of Tonefloat Records:

Nah, I'm just a suicidal major depressive patient.

He would. Just that most people who choose to work there have other reasons. — Agustino

Have you been to the bank recently?... (hint: bank tellers aren't exactly jonsing for CEO positions).

Never. It is a man's duty to do as much as possible for the world and for his fellow men while alive and capable. What's the goal? Doing your duty. — Agustino

So rising through the ranks would never lead to a position that would prohibit a "man" from doing his duty? So, doing a "man's" duty is to "do as much as possible"? Is that it?

I agree. But their aspiration isn't to work. It's to drive expensive cars, and have lots of women around them. — Agustino

>:O (you're well acquainted with this smiley and it's uses, yes?)

How about you start telling me why workaholism is a problem then instead of beating around the bush and sending me to do research? — Agustino

Here's a few links at random:

http://newyorkbehavioralhealth.com/workaholism

http://www.workaholics-anonymous.org/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/22/your-money/getting-workaholics-to-stop-and-recharge.html

http://nyhre.org/events/a-bio-psychosocial-perspective-on-addiction-from-heroin-to-workaholism-by-dr-gabor-mate/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/16/nyc-workaholism-map_n_5336981.html

That's his problem. — Agustino

Oh, so it's not your problem? What I meant by that is that some people have no sense of self-worth, based on their life experiences, which ties back to the topic of this thread. I'm one such person; one such worm. Say it to my face.

Yes, what's the issue with it? You dispute the value of helping others, inspiring others, and doing your duty to God? — Agustino

No, I dispute the value of "being remembered".

This isn't an area I know much about, I'm just spouting off on the internet, so anyone in crisis shouldn't take anything I say to heart. — Sivad

Why say it, then? You clearly don't know much about suicide as a general topic if you consider this a valid response to your own ignorance.

I referenced working at McD's in a positive light in terms of that being your start. You wouldn't be like other McD's workers - you would actually care about customers, put soul into serving them, try to speak with them, be nice, kind, bear with the lack of nobilities coming from your collegues - do great work for the sake of work. And then you'd go home, and study, work, learn. Sooner or later, you'd graduate McD's. — Agustino

So the bank teller at Chase wouldn't be able to do a similarly upstanding job?

For instance, if working at McD's is positive only in the sense of "moving up", then when exactly does the moving up become reprehensible? Once you start working at Chase, or what? What exactly is this goal of moving through the ranks?

No, I don't think their corporate "greed" is what's reprehensible. — Agustino

???

What's reprehensible is that you're there just for status. Not to work. Not to do a great job. You're there for the parties and for the sniffing of cocaine and the driving of expensive cars. That's who you sold your life to - not to work. — Agustino

Once again...someone working for Chase (or more accurately), Wall Street, may have these aspirations. And that's not a good thing.

But let me try to spell it out more succinctly: There is an ethos of workaholism in NYC. The impetus for this depends on many factors. That was my original argument here. Workaholism can be a problem; for instance, in a city like NYC. You can either dispute this claim by doing some research on workaholism in NYC, or assume that, as someone who lives here, I'm on to something. *shrug* I honestly don't even care

No. There's never too much work. Work sets man free. — Agustino

..............

A curse - give me a break, us mortals are not worth cursing. Who the hell would waste their time to curse us? Would you curse ants, worms and dust? — Agustino

No, but the worm may curse itself.

People who help others are remembered. People who inspire others are remembered. People who render service unto the world, and do their duty to God - they are remembered. — Agustino

Remembered...remembered...remembered...

So you'd rather throw away your life? No gratitude at all, for having been gifted with it. — Agustino

Furthermore, you began by using language of "remembered by", and now you switch to begging the question of "throwing life away". So it seems you're equating the value of life with being "remembered". This is what I have issue with.

No my friend, it wasn't workaholism that destroyed them. It was their lust, greed, shamelessness and sloth — Agustino

Do you not consider workaholism a problem?

The truth is - they've never worked. Not real work. — Agustino

Ok, you're making a distinction here between - what? - pure labor, on the one hand, and work that has a spiritual purpose? My critique was based on a simple reading of the word "work". For instance, you recently referenced working for McDonalds in a positive light. I could think of any number of reasons why working for McD's is morally reprehensible.

Of course I agree with you that working for Chase, or some such, is morally reprehensible. The greed involved is well known. But I'm talking about the New York City ethos in general, which involves countless industries. I would venture to guess you don't have much first hand experience in understanding this ethos. You're critique here is very one-sided. What about those who work in the publishing industry (allowing you to read the books you read), or the art world (setting the bar on what is and isn't art, as ridiculous as it is?), not to mention the bodega workers who work 12 hour days 7 days a week, because they know nothing else than this? I'm saying this as someone who lives here, and has my own harsh criticisms of the ethos here.

So you'd rather throw away your life? No gratitude at all, for having been gifted with it. — Agustino

Sometimes life seems a gift, other times, it seems a curse.

Well, based on my experience, people who work a lot, live a lot - and people who don't, don't live a lot. — Agustino

Try living in NYC. Those who work a lot party a lot; they don't do much else than these two things. They may eventually end up in a clinic, or if they're extremely lucky, they'll come out on top of their sector. Those who don't work as much...get suffocated by the city's workaholism, and have to leave, move in with a parent...etc. Not because of laziness: because of the prevailing environment of workaholism.

would you rather be remembered as an upstanding man who devoted himself to the betterment of mankind, who struggled and toiled each and every day for something greater than himself - or would you rather be remembered as the sloth who never rose up to the challenge, and whose sole achievement in life was casting a shadow over the earth? — Agustino

I'd rather not be remembered at all. The entire premise here is as empty as the materialism you critique.

I think it is to a certain extent, despair could swallow any one of us if we let it. — Sivad

I doubt that. The experience of despair swallowing oneself is not a universal experience. And no, I'm not playing the martyr here; this should be common sense. When faced with despair, the average person reverts back to the traditions, people, and comforts that give their lives meaning, and this is, as far as I can tell, perfectly sound. Those of us who can't do so have nothing to revert back to, and so we take a look at the abyss we find ourselves in front of. Not everyone get's here. There's not even anything dramatic about it; it's just a fact of life.

Some people just never developed good coping skills, that's where counseling can be helpful. — Sivad

The problem here is this mindset places the impetus on the person to develop those skills. The reality is that context, environment, is what enables or prevents someone from developing those skills. This means the onus is not specifically on them to make such developments, at least during developmental stages.

If a person hasn't experienced any horrific tragedies or traumas or are facing some fate worse than death and they're contemplating suicide because of some general existential despair, well then they're just blowing life way out of proportion. They're taking it all far too seriously. — Sivad

A "tough love" approach to the problem of suicide, like you're using here, is incredibly inappropriate. Tough love is appropriate when dealing with someone unwilling to face the cold hard reality of their situation. "Soft love", if you will (as the alternative to tough love), is appropriate when dealing with someone unable to even acknowledge their own self-worth. Survey any number of depressives or suicidals, and 99.9% will tell you they fit the latter category. Telling someone at risk of suicide that they're "taking it all far too seriously" has a high potential of that person taking you far too seriously, and ending their life.

Some of the best music ever written!