I think it's often the case that people find that there are fewer reasons for living than there are reasons for dying. Sometimes those people choose suicide. It's a common enough phenomenon and there might be many reasons for it. It's been interesting to read people's responses to your OP. What are the least helpful answers here?
— Tom Storm

I think the least helpful answers are the ones that insist life has good points or that one is lucky to be alive. That smacks of hindsight bias. I'm not an anti-natalist myself but I find it hard to argue against their claims and reasoning. People who think life is worth living are lucky and shouldn't speak on it's value. — Darkneos

@Tom Storm - that was a good question to ask, after all the different responses are gathered in.
And found wanting.

Most interesting to read @Darkneos reply.

That makes sense. — Tom Storm

And now what?

I agree it makes sense but not sure it is hindsight bias. I think some work hard, every day, to counter life's negativities and real life problems. We don't know what posters have been through, might still be going through. Some have worked out their own best coping mechanisms, others might have had professional help.

I seem to remember you have expertise in this area, or similar.

Do you agree with Darkneos that people who think life is worth living shouldn't speak to its value? Or try to persuade someone. It could be counter-productive, no?

Perhaps, if they are rubbing their good fortune in, like salt to an open wound, I can see it's not helpful.
I can't remember all the responses but I can't recall anyone doing that. Perhaps, its all in the perception.

And not everyone is 'lucky'. Life is what we make it. It's hard work. Where there is a will, there is a way.
Someone once said. But what if there is no will? What then?

You said you were interested to read people's responses. And waited until now to ask a most pertinent question. So, what now? What advice would you give people who only want to help?
Is it even possible to make a satisfactory logical argument in this kind of situation?

What are the main causes of suicide in young people?
And how can they be addressed?

What does it mean to say, "Life is worth living"? or "Lucky to be alive"?
It doesn't always seem like it is, or we are, does it? Even for those perceived as 'lucky'.

It depends on so many circumstances that we have no control over.
Which philosophy or psychology coping strategy is the most helpful, in your opinion?

In the Northern hemisphere this is the shortest day, longest night. The hours of daylight will start to increase. Some celebrate this: "Happy Winter Solstice!".

But the days are still dark and dreich. Lack of sunlight can bring mood right down.
People making merry, when you are feeling low, can make you feel worse.
Loneliness is felt. Not only by the young.

Is this when most suicides are committed?

What changes would make someone's life more bearable?

Oldies and Some Goodies — 180 Proof

My, can't wait to dip into this bag of goodies. Just what I need, right now :up: :flower:

The way the suicide discussion is so often carried out in Western culture (what little there is of such discussion, that is) is that all the blame is conveniently placed on the person who killed themselves or seems to want to, along with calling them mentally ill, selfish, etc. While it is somehow considered bad taste to point out how others may have contributed to the suicide, or even caused it. — baker

Thank you for sharing your experience of 'the suicide discussion'.

I don't see any blame or name-calling being attached to anyone here. It's been instructive, even if responses have been repeatedly dismissed.
Most have been patient but there is a limit.

All that talk of love, empathy, compassion. And yet, it is somehow always other people who should be the first to practice love, empathy, compassion, and never those who preach them. — baker

'All that talk' - 'those who preach them'.
I talked about a lot more than that. There was no preaching. It concerned the lack of empathy and its effects on a person and their relationships.

Like others, I took time, listened, asked questions, provided other perspectives which were ignored.

I will leave this thread for the time being. Another TPF Activity beckons. :sparkle:

Great term--existential vacuum. — BC

Yes. From the Guardian article linked earlier, glad you enjoyed it.

The sharing of life experiences - such as you have done here - is so valuable. To hear the stories. Life wisdom passed on. Sometimes too late. If I knew then, what I know now. Yup.

Now what? It took me years to fill the vacuum but I did, several times over. — BC

You've had your share of challenges, and finding your way through them.
Great to have you here to tell the tale.

I never had a 10yr plan. It took me a bit of trial and error to eventually find something I had thought not for me. But hey...

I find it strange that I'm still in the process of discovering mysel. I've never contemplated suicide but have felt like I didn't want to go on. I imagine most people go through similar.

Chronic, clinical depression is a whole other ballgame. Glad to know yours is well controlled with medication.

I saved some of the comments from the article, including this. Note, it isn't about a vacuum but a change.

we all, at different stages and ages, reach the point of existential change, and rarely does it occur at a time when we are ready to embrace it. The trick is to allow it to happen and use it as the opportunity it really is, to become who we really are.,

To see the potential in an apparent problem. Not always easy.
To become who we really are. To find a hidden talent.
For some, it can take a lifetime...
Enjoy the ride! :flower:

And yes. This:

We must be careful how we talk to ourselves: if a lot of our internal dialogue is about the pointless, meaninglessness of life, suicide as a solution, and so on -- we are -- at the very least -- sowing the seeds of more unhappiness, if not our death. — BC

making a performative affirmation. — unenlightened

:lol:
Stay cool and in the groove, man :cool:

Par for the course — Darkneos

As are your repetitions.

The irony, oh the irony. — baker

Not really. I think I've played my part in listening and responding.
I will continue to read with interest.

This supposedly adverse effect on others is so often grossly overstated. — baker

A lack of imagination or empathy means that the person can't envisage being in someone else's shoes. There is a lack of understanding and low consideration of how their actions can affect others; their emotions or wellbeing.

This can adversely affect relationships. Because if so self-centered, they don't want to listen or know. There is little point in continuing a discussion, about suicide, with someone who sees it only as an argument to win, logically.

Some people don't even realise their lack of awareness. And the role empathy plays in building trust and maintaining good relationships. Communication.

If they show a lack of compassion, care or love, it might not be that they don't care but that they don't know how to, or haven't experienced any.

Or, in the case of certain politicians who have reached high positions of power (without much responsibility), it can be part of a narcissistic personality disorder. This type is not likely to be considering suicide. Even if they are unhappy, they have too much to live for...

There are other areas or spectrums of mental health issues but I've said enough.
Leaving it here, thanks.

Where other people come in is that there's a presumption in your posts so far that the person considering suicide's suffering is more important than the suffering of those they leave behind. It's a big gamble there, as a sudden death is the kind of thing that can ruin loved ones' lives...

...Even if your life is so worthless that it might as well not have been, for you, that does not mean others share that valuation. — fdrake

Yes. There seems to be a lack of imagination or empathy as to the effect on others. Perhaps they have nobody who cares for/about them. Or it seems that way. And so, the feeling is reciprocated. Perhaps they want to ruin any happiness others might appear to be enjoying. Appearances can be deceptive. Others might be just as pissed-off about life but dealing with it in their own way.

There is no real need to be concerned over what happens to others if one is dead. All that stuff vanishes so why should it matter if other people hurt? — Darkneos

'Life stuff' might not matter to you - in life or death. But it does to others. If you don't see a need to be concerned or care about people and their emotions, then so be it. I doubt you will be persuaded otherwise. Have you been hurt? Is it worse or better than not being recognised or cared for? Or is being ignored a fate worse than death?

People have to stop being so scared to talk about death and the value of life.

Perhaps people have to stop being scared to open themselves up. Perhaps there should be improved access to 'talking therapy'. To talk about life difficulties, relationships and how best to cope. Keeping it all in can be toxic. But, then again, why open a can of worms, especially when there's nobody around to catch the blighters.

Thanks for pointing out perceptions and realities of the term 'baby boomer'.
I dislike the term and how it is used to create divisions and rancour between the generations.
I dislike generalisations in particular/general...

It seems that an 'existential crisis' can happen to anyone at any point in their thinking lives. When people despair and have no hope...they can't see a way forward.

This article and the BTL comments are fascinating. Some philosophy also included:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/15/im-nearly-80-and-theres-a-void-in-my-life-that-hobbies-cant-fill

It's trivial compared to the subject of Suicide. However, it is real and illuminates 'existential boredom'.

You’ve achieved your ambitions, reached goals you once set for yourself, and now you find yourself at a loss. What next, after all the striving and attaining? That place you’re in is what existential philosophers call “the existential vacuum”, where the old meanings have dried up, and the activities that once filled your life no longer sustain you. This is not an uncommon experience, especially for those who have truly lived, achieved, and accomplished. You have faced life’s challenges, but now, without those goals, a deeper question is emerging: What is left?

Edit to add someone's BTL comment:

I recognize this feeling of being disconnected, unengaged, bored with life. I agree there can be profound existential questions behind this state of mind, and exploring them can be very meaningful. That said, for me (and not for everyone), existential boredom and feelings of disconnection can be signs of clinical depression. If I were struggling in this way, I include a talk to the doctor who manages my medications among my options.I can still explore the human condition and what is important and authentic to me at my stage of life when my brain is working better.

Important to recognise the reasons/causes underlying a mental state. If you think it's all in the mind, then you'd be wrong. The body and the brain are interlinked. Disconnection, mental confusion or depression has a host of physical causes. Correct diagnosis is essential if any disorder is to be fixed.

You might think you know the answers to the 'problems'. Been there, tried that. But perhaps you need to dig deeper to see what the problems or difficulties really are.

Another BTL comment:

The problem with our culture is the focus on 'telic' activities - things that lead to something. So you don't just play the piano - you play it in order to progress to harder pieces, or be good enough to perform in public or pass an exam. The LW reflects this: "I have achieved all my ambitions".
We need more appreciation for atelic activities: things we do simply for the sake of doing them, however well or badly, with no thought to them 'leading' to something.

I guess this is a good a place as any. — Darkneos

Is it? What is it good for? What other places have you visited?

I've struggled to find a good argument against suicide that doesn’t involve either nonsense or special pleading to life or hindsight bias. — Darkneos

You want an 'argument against suicide' - why? Are you considering suicide and want to be argued out of it? Or is it simply intellectual - you present a case 'for' with reasons, others either agree or disagree, and you either accept or refuse any 'conclusions' because...

Either way, it's good to talk about it, listen carefully to other perspectives, even if you judge them not relevant to your case. This is a public forum, not everyone participates but people read and can gain from an exchange of views.

that doesn’t involve either nonsense or special pleading to life or hindsight bias. — Darkneos

What do you consider 'nonsense'? What is 'special pleading to life'.
Is it something along the lines of wiki's:

"You aren't like me, so you do not even have a right to think about or hold opinions on my plight."
Example: Keep your advice to yourself. If you didn't grow up the way I did, then you can't understand. — Special Pleading - Wiki

'Hindsight bias' - do you have any examples used in previous 'arguments'? Is it related to:

Hindsight bias is more likely to occur when the outcome of an event is negative rather than positive.[14] This is a phenomenon consistent with the general tendency for people to pay more attention to negative outcomes of events than positive outcomes — Wiki - Hindsight Bias

Edit: you mentioned this:

I also find hind sight bias plays a big role in people saying life is worth it. Just because your life worked out doesn't mean others would and wanting them to stick around for your sake and sanity in the rightness of your choice is selfish. People have to stop being so scared to talk about death and the value of life.

Another perspective: People can look back and wonder if it was all worthwhile. The struggle and its overcoming doesn't mean that life is great or has 'worked out' well. You are right, not everyone wants the same. So what? See bolds, not sure what you're driving at. I think the topics of life and death are being more openly discussed. For example: The right to die.
MPs have voted in favour of proposals to legalise assisted dying in England and Wales.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2l7m6r55do

What I've read of the discussion so far, you seem to have been there, tried it all and either ignore or are pretty dismissive of suggestions. It seems that you have closed your ears and eyes and are focusing more on 'winning an argument'. Why does this matter to you?

The way I see it if there is no greater reason to meaning to life then there isn’t really a reason to keep going. Not reason to really struggle and fight for a place in the world. No reason to really pursue anything. One can just end their life and be done with the pursuit and struggle. — Darkneos

What do you mean by 'no greater reason to meaning to life'?

This post by @180 Proof pretty much gets straight to the point:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/953804
Ending:

That there is no inherent reason to live demonstrates that there is no inherent reason to kill yourself (or anyone else). You were Born. You Learn. You Love-Lose. (You unLearn.) You will Die. No "argument" for or against "life" – or the lack of an "argument" – changes these facts of life, so stop whining and get over yourself, dude. — 180 Proof

To me arguments for staying alive or for meaning only work if you HAVE to live. Filling life with good things, doing what you love, all that junk only has logical weight if one is unable to die until a set time. Baring that I see no reason for living. Desire for pleasures only applies if you are alive, if you die there is no need for any of that. Same with love, friendship, food, money, etc. — Darkneos

I don't know that we HAVE to live, but for the most part people want to live or are not ready to die.
Life goes on, no matter what physical or mental state we are in.

Why do you use the derogatory 'all that junk' towards the idea that people can find life rewarding in caring about self, others and the world? What does logic have to do with it? It's about being or becoming the best that you can be in sometimes difficult circumstances. Overcoming the overwhelming negatives that can surround us, externally and internally. Making the most of it. Just getting on with it, because there is nothing else for it. Unless you end it all. That is not always an option, or the best one.

If you live, there are needs and wants. It seems you don't care much for 'so-called love'.
If you die, there is no need for anything. That's logical. Why don't you want to need anything?

I don't know the answers but I've enjoyed listening to others. Good to know that your discussion continues...and people are engaging. Take care :sparkle:

The Byrds - Turn! Turn! Turn!



To everything, turn, turn, turn
There is a season, turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven

A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep

...

LESLEY DUNCAN | SING CHILDREN SING | Charity Single 1979

Beat you to it :razz:

All About That Bass - Postmodern Jukebox European Tour Version

OK. Sounds like a topic for another thread, methinks.
Take care :sparkle:
Put another dime in the juke box :cool:

His refusal to live there is the thing. — Paine

Exactly. So, why do you say:

...it would be embarrassing for me to despair — Paine

How would despair be embarrassing?

At the very least, since Sam can do that song, it would be embarrassing for me to despair. — Paine

Despair is not embarrassing. But staying there in that dark, mental space is not helpful. Do you not think that the song came from a place of despair? Hard times and struggling through pain is what we all have in common. Some more than others. We are not alone.

@180 Proof introduced me to Nina Simone's stunning version of George Harrison's 'Isn't it a Pity'.
From my thread: 'Questions of Hope, Love and Peace...'
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/759563

From my OP:

GIVE ME LOVE. Sometimes you open your mouth and you don't know what you are going to say, and whatever comes out is the starting point. If that happens and you are lucky - it can usually be turned into a song. This song is a prayer and personal statement between me, the Lord, and whoever likes it.
— George Harrison

Sharing all kinds of music and thoughts here in TPF - well, it helps...a little...don't ya think?
I find love and encouragement here. Most of the time. :wink: :heart: :pray:

Great find. A Biography site. History and Culture and everything yummy! Cheers! :up: :flower:

Notre Dame Cathedral. Malta's Cathedrals. Who pays for the gold?
I know why religion is there and why people pray.
And then they bomb.

Dali's painting is extraordinary. I want to know his story.

I am looking to start writing philosophical papers for publication soon, — I like sushi

Best wishes. Do well and let us know how things go! Hope you will bring some of your broad interests to the TPF Challenge in June 2025 but not, of course, anything published elsewhere. :up: :sparkle:

This I find difficult to talk about. — Dawnstorm

Thank you for trying. Your detailed explanation clarifies but I will focus only on bits.

None of that would matter much. What really matters in the end is the text — Dawnstorm

What matters is the story. And how the writer moves it along - its flow affecting the reader.
The sometimes difficult authorial decision to create a story, as intriguing as it is beautiful in the eyes of the beholder. How to end it. Knowing how best to write and read to benefit all...

If I go online to talk about writing, I'll always go into rule-blaster mode - and it'll never quite come across how I want to (if I even know how I want to come across). I've built up a lot of frustration that way, and that's why I've been bowing out of writing forums. — Dawnstorm

Your frustration is well expressed. I understand why you give writing forums a break.
But as long as you can write when you feel like it. And not just for critical appraisal. To have finished the first draft of a novel is an achievement. A short story should be a walk in the park :wink:

Really, it's good not to trust me too much. — Dawnstorm

I trust you to tell it like it is for you. As well as anyone is able to. Showing insight, knowledge and experience.

I sort of space out, then. If I want to see stunning scenery, for example, narrative is never going to cut it for me; I prefer the visual arts - where I actually have something to look at. — Dawnstorm

Yes, narrative has its limitations. It is what it is. Just like a photograph can never encapsulate the feel of being in nature or even half its beauty.
Interesting that you mention the visual arts. I've been thinking of how @javi2541997 inspired me to look again at his profile pic to interpret its meaning. We not only read text but paintings.
My reading was different from his, due to personal history and background - with no awareness of Dali. Javi knew Dali and yet did not agree with my 'religious' interpretation.
[and, of course, it turned out not to be Dali but Kush]

No, no. The Dali's apple is not Biblical, and I think he never painted something religious. The point was to be surrealist or even dreamy. — javi2541997

I thank @Vera Mont for carefully drawing attention to Dali's works.

Those exquisite crucifixions are worth checking out. Also several madonnas, a ghostly last supper and a lot of Christian symbolism. Catholic themes, as far as I recall, not the Old Testament. — Vera Mont

There was a time when the very word 'religion' would have me turn away. My Christian faith had vanished and I despised anything to do with it. I would not have been attracted to Dali's religious paintings. Fortunately, things change.

I used to just put it down to taste - which it still might be, who knows? — Dawnstorm

Yes. It is all down to aesthetics. "As you know, Bob!" :sparkle:

Thank you for this :sparkle:
Wow. The first notes just hit you with their soaring beauty. A symphony of strings, then more, combined with lyrics full of personal awareness and social consciousness. The African-American story of struggle.Change gonna come. Strong lines of hope and courage. But does it, will it work for us today?
The simple belief, resistance in the 60's for a change in justice. Decades have passed...slow progress made. But still there is oppression. The future looks bleak but listening to this, it encourages resilience. Each orchestral instrument plays its part in changing the beat, echoing the words.
We will carry on. Sing it out, sing it loud! :fire:
https://www.songmeaningsandfacts.com/a-change-is-gonna-come-the-anthem-of-a-revolution/

I was born by the river
In a little tent
Oh, and just like the river, I've been running
Ever since

It's been a long
A long time coming, but I know
A change gon' come
Oh yes, it will

It's been too hard living
But I'm afraid to die
'Cause I don't know what's up there
Beyond the sky

[chorus]

I go to the movie
And I go downtown
And somebody keep telling me
"Don't hang around"

[chorus]

Then, I go to my brother
And I say, "Brother, help me, please"
But he winds up knockin' me
Back down on my knees, oh

There been times that I thought
I couldn't last for long
But now, I think I'm able
To carry on

It's been a long
A long time coming, but I know
A change gon' come
Oh yes, it will
Songwriters: Sam Cooke. For non-commercial use only.

Oh. That took my breath away. I was not expecting that.
I need to go see that up close and personal. I hope it's still in the collection.

Christ of Saint John of the Cross is a painting by Salvador Dalí made in 1951 which is in the collection of the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum, Glasgow.

It depicts Jesus Christ on the cross in a darkened sky floating over a body of water complete with a boat and fishermen.

Although it is a depiction of the crucifixion, it is devoid of nails, blood, and a crown of thorns, because, according to Dalí, he was convinced by a dream that these features would mar his depiction of Christ. Also in a dream, the importance of depicting Christ in the extreme angle evident in the painting was revealed to him. — Wiki - Christ of Saint John of the Cross

Thank you, Vera. :sparkle:
Imagine floating in Dali's dreams...

Here's a slightly more traditional one. — Vera Mont

I can't access Facebook. Do you have its title and I can search elsewhere?

Still not Murillo, but a little closer to Vermeer, one of his early influences. — Vera Mont

Just call me impressed by your wealth of knowledge. Do you have a few Dalis hanging in your kitchen?

Well, I was looking for Dali's apple and Kush appeared.
So, both brilliant gems of creativity. One inspiring the other. Some creatives reach higher levels of polish and sparkle...public acclamation and wealth.

But, yes. It amazes me how one post leads to another and then another jewel is added to the collection. You and Vera both love Dali. I'm getting there :sparkle:

Kush is no slouch, either. Amazing stuff! He likes butterflies and apples. There is one explicitly about the biblical apple.
Thanks, Amity; I'd never heard of him. — Vera Mont

Well, we can thank @javi2541997 for that!
He, unwittingly, introduced him as 'Dali' in his profile pic :wink:

Also, Adam got off lightly, because he said: "The woman tricked me." He rules by Righteousness; she, in league with the Serpent, corrupts him with Guile.
(And you may have given me an essay topic.) — Vera Mont

For the Philosophy Writing Challenge - June 2025? Yay!
I've an idea for that too. But, ssshh, it's a secret...

Wonderful links to the works of Dali, thanks.

There are green apples without butterflies in a couple of the large pictures, though he seems to have preferred pears. (Dali is my all-time favourite Painter.) — Vera Mont

I really had no idea. My appetite is now well and truly gewhetted. The brilliance of taking the mundane and growing it into something else.
Now that's Creative Genius.

Found a lithograph of Dali's APPLE-EVE’S APPLE.

Part of the Flors Dali (The Fruits) series, Apple-Eve's Apple dep#icts a figure made up of foliage and fruit, placed above a rough sketch of a dragon.
https://www.dtrmodern.com/others/apple-eves-apple

And the full collection of his 14 fruit watercolours.

Fourteen original Salvador Dali watercolour fruit studies, unseen by collectors until now, are being sold at Bonhams, London, on Tuesday. They were commissioned in 1969 and 1970 but have since only been in private hands. The series is expected to make close to £1m.

NB that was written on 18th June 2013.

Complete with warning:
Some of these images are explicit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-22948997

Better images, follow the arrows to view more. Love the Hasty Plum!
https://www.bonhams.com/magazine/14463/

***
Good as they are, the religious ones...well, wow! The ghostly last supper.
With a feminised Jesus centre-stage ?

Excellent description and information re history and geometric technique:

'During the late 1940s, Dalí’s return to Christian imagery and traditional values was influenced by three factors:  the devastating effects of the Spanish Civil War and World War II, his reawakened interest in classical art, and his reappraisal of Freud’s psychological principles after meeting the aging psychoanalyst in 1938.  One classic derivation cited by Dalí in connection with his painting was Zurbarán, a seventeenth-century Spanish old master.  The tousled hair of the praying figures, the kneeling postures, and the brilliant whites of their cloaks evoke Zurbarán’s precise, enamel-like handling of paint....

As in the harmonious presentation of Renaissance schemes, Dalí’s composition is clearly divided:  foreground action and background scenery.  The placement of men around the table is symmetrical, the same figure repeated in perfect mirror image on both sides of Christ.  Moreover, the entire nine-foot-long picture is constructed according to complex mathematical ratios devised by Renaissance scientists and such ancient Greek philosophers as Pythagoras.'

From: https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46590.html

That's an excellent point. — Jamal

Thank you. Sometimes I amaze myself :cool: There must be something in the air. The smoky whiff of TPF in December. Short Stories. Stimulating, sensuous, spectacular. :fire: :heart: :sparkle:

Really pleasantly surprised by this, not being a follower of Joni Mitchell. Is it me, or is her voice different? — Amity

Her voice changed.

Mitchell released her final set of "original" new work before nearly a decade of other pursuits, 1998's Taming the Tiger....

It was around this time that critics also began to notice a real change in Mitchell's voice, particularly on her older songs; the singer later confirmed the change, explaining that "I'd go to hit a note and there was nothing there".
While her more limited range and huskier vocals have sometimes been attributed to her smoking (she was described by journalist Robin Eggar as "one of the world's last great smokers"), Mitchell believes that the changes in her voice that became noticeable in the 1990s were because of other problems, including vocal nodules, a compressed larynx, and the lingering effects of having had polio. — Wiki - Joni Mitchell

Listening to this, following discussion of creativity and cliché. 'It was a dark and stormy night':
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/951826
Really pleasantly surprised by this, not being a follower of Joni Mitchell. Is it me, or is her voice different?

The Crazy Cries of Love · Joni Mitchell - from Taming the Tiger (1998)

It was a dark and a stormy night
Everyone was at the wing-ding
They weren't the wing-ding type
So they went up on the train bridge
Where the weather was howling
And oh, oh, my my
When that train comes rolling by
No paper thin walls, no folks above
No one else can hear
The crazy cries of love

***

Joni Mitchell's song "Crazy Cries of Love" on her album Taming the Tiger (1998) opens with "It was a dark and stormy night". In the December 1998 issue of Musician, Mitchell discusses her idea of using several cliche lines in the lyrics of multiple songs on the album, such as "the old man is snoring" in the title song "Taming the Tiger". Her co-lyricist, Don Fried, had read of a competition in The New Yorker to write a story opening with "It was a dark and stormy night" and was inspired to put it in the lyrics of "Crazy Cries of Love". Mitchell states:

But the second line is a brilliant deviation from the cliché: "Everyone was at the wing-ding." It's a beautiful out, but that was because it was competition to dig yourself out of a cliché hole in an original way. He never sent it in to The New Yorker, but he just did it as an original exercise.[20] — Wiki - It was a dark and stormy night

So it's all just telling. I suppose the reason they say show, don't tell, is when it's for plays and films, where instead of exposition---particularly awkward in this case because it has to take the form of dialogue or voice-over---you can show emotions, motivations and the setting with the acting, action, cinematography and set design, etc. — Jamal

Yes. There is always a story to tell. It's in the way that we tell it...see it or hear it...all senses on full alert.

I read that Chekhov is the culprit who inspired the concept of 'Show, don't tell'.
"Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass."

In a letter to his brother, Chekhov actually said, "In descriptions of Nature one must seize on small details, grouping them so that when the reader closes his eyes he gets a picture. For instance, you’ll have a moonlit night if you write that on the mill dam a piece of glass from a broken bottle glittered like a bright little star, and that the black shadow of a dog or a wolf rolled past like a ball." — Wiki - Show, don't tell

So it comes down to attention to detail, important in realism. "It was a dark and stormy night" is a shorthand and therefore a cliché; it doesn't tell us exactly what is happening. — Jamal

Yes. But even so, there's something about getting right into it...a sense of familiarity. It doesn't have to be boring. The author can surprise by not following it up with expected horror but delight in candlelight. Or being wonderstruck by thunder and lightning...awesome nature. They stood at the window...

Writer's Digest described this sentence as "the literary posterchild for bad story starters".[5] On the other hand, the American Book Review ranked it as No. 22 on its "Best first lines from novels" list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_was_a_dark_and_stormy_night

***



It was a dark and a stormy night
Everyone was at the wing-ding
They weren't the wing-ding type
So they went up on the train bridge
Where the weather was howling
And oh, oh, my my
When that train comes rolling by
No paper thin walls, no folks above
No one else can hear
The crazy cries of love

Looking forward to reading your story, and others, in the dazzling show of creativity that is the Literary Activity: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15585/literary-activity-dec-2024/p1

:cool: :fire: - shorthand for mega cool and hot stuff, baby! :wink:

"Show, don't tell," is one piece of advice that's... vague — Dawnstorm

Well, it can certainly be interpreted, misinterpreted and expounded on at great length.
As a rule, without qualification, it is absolute. 'Don't' is an imperative. This is what you should do if you want to be a good writer.

So at the moment you say "The 'show don't tell' - has a point but, of course, some telling is necessary." you're already caught up in a rhetoric that stigmatizes telling and sets showing as the default, when what you really need is an understanding of how many details to use and when. It's not clear whether "show, don't tell," is helpful or harmful. That depends on (a) how you learn to interpret the line, and (b) what sort of style your intuitive voice tends towards. — Dawnstorm

I don't know that I'm caught up in a stigmatisation of telling. Or that I agree with a default of showing.
I could have phrased it better and I could have expanded...
I was trying to say that both were needed.

A message-board experience in creative writing sounds like my idea of hell. I guess some forums are more helpful than others.

For example, when I was still writing, I noticed that my characters were "turning their heads" a lot when something caught their attention. All of them. When I wrote "turned his/her head", that was usually me putting in a short cut. It's a physical detail, a sort of behavior-icon for some recurring type of events. It's not only repetitive, it's also not taking into account the character's body language. So I have this private little rule that says "beware of swivel-head syndrome." So... should I peddle this rule? Should I just assume that many people share the same problem? Should I stigmatize head-turning — Dawnstorm

Why did you stop creative writing? Don't you miss it? Have you considered taking part in TPF's Literary Activity - either as a writer or reader, both?

Having an internal rule to remind you to avoid 'bad' writing is helpful, like a bright yellow sticky note on your laptop. I suppose then it becomes intuitive, part of who you are.

it's just that people suddenly started put the same few stock movements in place of the same few stock emotions. — Dawnstorm

Hmm. I'll have to take your word for that.

Like a cultural short hand. — Dawnstorm

What do you mean by that? It seemed to have a negative connotation. I checked it out:
https://library.fiveable.me/key-terms/language-popular-culture/cultural-shorthand

Cultural shorthand refers to the use of brief, recognizable phrases or symbols that evoke specific ideas, emotions, or shared experiences within a culture. This concept allows people to communicate complex meanings quickly and effectively, relying on common cultural references.

So, a quick way to connect and evoke. A short-hand without the need for detailed explanations.
Handy, especially when words are limited as in a micro/mini story.

The repetitive use of 'Turned his/her head' isn't the same kind of short-cut. It's just unimaginative.

So noticing this trend, I could abstract from my "swivel-head syndrome" personal rule, and say something like "Know the body language of your characters!" But if that caught on (I doubt it would; it doesn't tell you what to do), it would likely be distributed as a slogan, and it's context would eventually be lost, and it would create its own set of problems. — Dawnstorm

Well, it's not about something 'catching on' to be repeated parrot-like without engaging brain.
Advice isn't all about catch-phrases to keep in mind. However, some have been re-formed in more helpful ways. This excellent article, along with comments and responses, is in sympathy with your view:
https://emmadarwin.typepad.com/thisitchofwriting/showing-and-telling-the-basics.html

Another one, gives a balanced view with examples:

What does “Show, don’t tell” mean? At its root, it means that rather than asserting something for the reader to accept, your writing transmits something for the reader to experience. The writer accomplishes this through a mix of vivid imagery, descriptive verbs, and immersive details.

https://writers.com/show-dont-tell-writing

***

One of the reason "know the body-language of your characters!" is useful for me is because I have aphantasia. I have no inner eye. — Dawnstorm

Goodness. That is quite an obstacle for anyone, never mind a creative writer. I can't imagine how difficult that must be. Having no inner eye means not being able to visualise. This is key to imagination and perhaps links to empathy?

It's very involved — Dawnstorm

Understatement?!
Thank you for your sensitive insight into all the difficulties. Taking the time to explore. :sparkle: :flower:

Thanks for relating your thoughts and experience about creative writing.
How writing rules can become a style. But people have to find their own way.
Isn't it strange to find people parroting advice wholesale, when advice changes from writer to writer in any given time or space. The 'show don't tell' - has a point but, of course, some telling is necessary.
How it is done, seamlessly, is where creativity enters the picture.

My problem was that the more I got embroiled in arguments, the more I found myself saying things that... I didn't really mean. I did mean them to some extent, but the matters-of-fact here are... difficult, and the moment you put something into words, you can think of a few ways that could be wrong, and so on and so forth — Dawnstorm

Yes. And that is the beauty of taking time to reflect and edit your thoughts as you write. Others can help by questioning what you mean by X,Y or Z. But many don't ask, they assume.
Thinking and then appreciating how the mind can change, that is what works, for me, in a forum.
Sometimes, we don't always like to admit a change of position. Some see it as a sign of weakness. It would mean being a 'loser' not a 'winner' and they dig deeper...into dogma.

Taken all together these sort of rules converge on a style. More then once I saw authors put up their writing for criticism, get a few predictable remarks (e.g. there are too many adverbs), then edit the excerpt, post it again, and then get better responses. I once asked one of those writers which version they personally liked better; they said they liked the new one better, though they might just be in the high of the moment. The thing is this: I almost always liked the original version better. The edited version might be smoother, but usually they lost voice. — Dawnstorm

[Edit: deleted quotes from a short story]

Yes. That can happen.

The short story event is fantastic. People give voice to their different interpretations.
I've learned a great deal by participating over the years. About careful listening...

It's like there's a set of industry standards slowly forming... taste. It's like these writing rules are slowly becoming true through... taste formation? — Dawnstorm

Hmmm. Not sure how true this is. It could work the other way round. Our tastes in fiction change and we demand more choice. New genres arise with experimental ways of writing.

Chacun à son goût, non?
The Literary Activity is a veritable banquet of juicy bites. Some might not hold instant appeal but each story should be listened to. IMO. Yummy times ahead... :party:

And talking about Poitier...

Το Sir With Love - Lulu (Lyrics)

To Sir, with Love is a 1967 British drama film that deals with social and racial issues in an inner city school. — Wiki - To Sir, with Love

Well, would you believe it...who knew?

In 1964, Poitier recorded an album with the composer Fred Katz called Poitier Meets Plato, in which Poitier recites passages from Plato's writings.[67]

Thanks :flower:
I remember how I felt when I watched the film. The atmospheric music. Sultry Southern racist blues. The sweat and heat of anger and passion. Powerful acting by Poitier.

Can hardly believe it was released in 1967. I must have watched it later.

I can't remember all the details. I would have a deeper appreciation of it now.
So, where can I find it...?

It's so hard to keep control
When I could sell my soul
For just a little light
In the heat of the night...

Must be an ending to it all
But hold on, it won't be long
Just you be strong
And it'll be alright
In the heat of the night.

Thank you.
It takes me back to better times (or so it seemed in my bubble) :cool:
Simply beautiful. I appreciate it even more now than I did back then.
Ist to 2nd year at Uni. Away from parents. New life and loves. Wonderful.
Just love it :sparkle:

@Jack Cummins and @Vera Mont et al. Thank you! :up: :flower:

With those or similar titles, I'd consider changing from read only to write maybe.
It actually starts sounding like fun. — Vera Mont

Fun, yes! It is to be enjoyed. But it's also serious. For academics and non-academics.
Taking all comments on board, here's an update for those considering level of participation:

Title: Philosophy Writing Challenge - June 2025
Topic: own choice
Word limit: min 500, max 5,000.

This is a chance for everyone to try something new. Philosophy for All. :cool:

This article gives examples of Philosophy Writing:
https://dailynous.com/2023/04/18/various-literary-forms-of-philosophy/

I don't see 'Articles' there but the Philosophy Now website and magazine gives ideas:
https://philosophynow.org/

The Guidelines are still a work in progress. To be kept short and simple to allow flexibility.
However, the important rules re submission will be as per TPF policy.
Announcement to be made by @Moliere around Feb 2025.
Submissions to be in by June 1st.

The guidance is for your benefit as writers or readers.
What advice or help would you want/need before taking part?
Questions and comments always welcome, thanks!

Another exchange:
From @Jack Cummins:

...it will be an interesting experiment. My only concern would be about its competitive nature and the war of egos. There has been so much of that in the creative writing competitions/activities.

My reply:

OK. I agree there are problems related to 'competition'. Been there, like you!
The question of 'competitive elements' is still to be fully addressed.
To have an 'in-essay' poll or an extra evaluative thread, like @Baden's proposed 'Favourites'.
It is to be viewed more as a 'Challenge' than a Competition.

It might not be a 'war of egos' as much as friendly rivalry between different forms, styles and philosophical interests. :pray: :cool:

@Jack Cummins - Looking forward to participating in the Literary Activity. Will you be there as a writer or reader? Both?

@Baden has been quite the inspiration. Hope the new 'Favourites' thread works out just fine :up:

My only concern would be about its competitive nature and the war of egos. There has been so much of that in the creative writing competitions/activities. — Jack Cummins

OK. I agree there are problems related to 'competition'. Been there, like you!
The question of 'competitive elements' is still to be addressed.
To have an 'in-essay' poll or an extra evaluative thread, like @Baden's proposed 'Favourites'
It is to be viewed more as a 'Challenge' than a Competition.

I'm going to move this exchange to the other thread. Thanks.