What is romantic love? I feel it can be identified as a combination of three traits. (Order is alphabetical, not by importance).

1. Friendship - You can confide in one another and have fun in your interactions in daily life.

2. Love - Love is simply the acceptance a person despite knowing all of the other person's positive and negative qualities. Further, while you understand their limitations and failings, you support them in being the best they can be.

3. Lust - The reason this isn't just a good friendship.

From this breakdown, you can evaluate the level of someone's professed romantic love in a relationship.

First, each person is going to emphasize the importance of these in some fashion. Some people think lust is the most important. Others love. Others friendship.

If a person has only one of these qualities, we call this a "shallow" relationship. Typically the person values this one aspect higher than all of the other aspects, and believes this is enough to form a relationship. While this can be a start, the other two need to be developed over time.

When a person has 2 out of the 3, I would call this an average relationship. Its decent, livable, and as long as the two you have are the two you personally value the highest, you're probably satisfied enough.

When all 3 are met, we then have romantic love. If both people have all 3, and they are satisfied in receiving what they personally need or want from all 3, then we have a romance for the story books.

What do you think?

For those who have not experienced love what do you believe love will be/ is? For those who have experienced love what was it for you? And for those who are sceptical as to whether love exists or not.. what do you believe accounts for the concept of love in others or in general?

What is the purpose of love? Where does it come from? Is it needed?

You don't love a person because you love his body; you only start to love his body after you start to love his person.

" The madness of love is heavens greatest blessing" - Plato

"And if love be madness, may I never find sanity again" - John Mark green.

"There is always some madness in love, but there is also some reason in madness" - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Love is merely a madness" - William Shakespeare.

Thoughts on the relationship of love to madness/insanity?

Why in your opinion do these all quote a similar sentiment regarding love affliction. What is mad about it?

I've been taking a more feminist outlook on society, and there's nothing out in society that compares to the love a mother grants to her herd or sheeple.

Nowhere can you find the unconditional love a mother grants a (particularly) a son or daughter.

I'm almost a 30 year old man living with his mother, and I wake up every morning feeling like a kid with his mother. Usually, by my age siblings leave the nest and are on their own; but, I'm grown more appreciative and loving towards my mother. It seems like I will never leave her.

But, what do you call this? Maturity? Disability? Love? Dependency disorder?

My father frowns on the whole situation. He thinks I have passed the age of leaving the nest and will always stay with my mom.

But, you know what? Fuck him. He abandoned his fiduciary duty when I was 15, when we moved to another country. So, he can go have a fig or something.

But, now I realize that I never want to leave my mothers side. It's as if I fully realize why she cares for me so much. It's because her love is unconditional. No strings attached.

Having read a little of feminist philosophy, this would be called "care". And, you know what? There ain't fuckin enough of that in this world.

People are needy and will eat up all the care in this world; so, it's a limited resource, and now I understand why I don't care about my neighbor's son as if he were my own. Because care is a limited resource and it doesn't self-generate.

And, this is where I understand the relationship between compassion and care. Compassion must be cultivated to sustain care; but, to be honest, it's a tiring process. You have to shut out the negativity of the world, and view it in a positive light to cultivate compassion.

So, what I'm getting at is that the mantra of life of a Buddhist is almost in some ways similar to the unconditional love a mother endows unto her son or daughter. They are very similar almost identical.

Thoughts?

Evolution has no need for love. Well no need for love between partners at least, maybe maternal and paternal love towards offspring yes, but as for partners all that is called for is sexual attraction/ lust. The convention of marriage is very much a legal and political thing regarding possession and responsibility towards children.

What’s the difference between simply being infatuated with someone and loving them? If you subscribe to the idea of love please explain why on earth we would need it. We are animals with a high rate of infidelity I would struggle to believe we are indeed as monogamous as culture and romcoms would dictate

Tried some google searches, but nothing really came up on point.

So I figured I'd throw it in the ring here:

I am in my late 40's and I've never been crazy, head over heels in love with anyone. You know the stuff you see in the movies, can't stop thinking about them, can't wait to see them again, and can't imagine life without them. My buddy calls falling for someone this way, getting struck by a thunderbolt. I've never been struck by a thunderbolt.

I had crushes as a kid and teen and in my early 20's, but then never really crushed after that. I would be "into" a particular girl at school or work after that, but I wouldn't say it was even a crush, more like I really liked her look AND her vibe.

I've dated a lot and had four serious long term relationships. I have loved all of my partners, but never been crazy in love with any of them, none of them was the thunderbolt.

When I look at my buddies I see some of them seem to been hit by thunderbolts, but some of them haven't really.

I guess I wonder if there are certain types of people who just don't have the capacity for thunderbolt love, (my current partner actually wonders the same thing about herself). I am an only child raised by a single Mom and generally a very independent person. I wonder sometimes if I've just developed a selfhood that doesn't leave room for the kind of dependence that would come with the thunderbolt kind of love?

Anyone feel similar?

On this Valentines Day I feel the need to bring up the topic.

Some of my best Valentine Days have been filled with friends: they didn't have the anxiety associated with being a "good" lover or whatever.

There are others that are more exciting, but at this point I want to point out how asexual love is at least more stable than sexual love, or seemingly so.

Some people manage to stick it through.

But most? Naw.

And the most enduring loves I have aren't even related to the usual associations of Valentine's Day.

So I figure it worth pointing out that while sex sells, Love is bigger than selling -- even if the erotic is attractive, Valentines Day ought be about more kinds of love.

Hi all, I am new here. My name is Danny, 30 YO single male. I came across this great site. Please bear with me as this is my first post. I am new to posting and writing on forums. I don't mean any disrespect. I am a deep thinker and cannot understand why love is so important. I keep shipwrecking relationships because I cannot seem to show or express love or my true self. How do you love? I have struggled my whole life with this. Why is it (love) so important if you never grew up with the sincerity and genuineness of it in the household. Please explain. Thank you.

Hi there. This is my first post. I guess first I shall clarify what I mean with romantic love or rather, what it is not to me. Romantic love is not the one I feel for anyone in my family or any of my male friends, as I'm attracted to women. Romantic love is what I feel for a girl who I like both physically and mentally in a very intense way, this kind of feeling almost always comes together with significant amount of sexual attraction to this person. I may be competely flawed regarding what the right name of what I feel is and therefore I apologize beforehand; in that case please clarify what the real name is so we can move on. Also, since english is not my mother language please excuse my mistakes.

Some background: I've been single for almost 10 years, I'm 24 now. Why am I single? Well, it's been a combination of undecision, fear and what some people may call "bad timing" (I don't like that term, though). Anyway, I feel frustrated very often because of me being unable to start relationships despite my attempts. Also, many girls I like are now in a romantic relationship or suddenly get into one. You may say, "hey, you're just a kid, you haven't even been through real frustration coming from love" but that just won't make things any better, there's just no way for me to know that kind of frustration yet and so you can't expect me to understand by using words alone; it's obviously subjective to each one of us.

I'm not looking to improve the way I approach the women I like or to learn seduction tricks or whatever. I'm looking for a way to understand my frustration and to live with it as a minor problem in my life or no problem at all. I've found in philosophy better ways to look at the problems in life, not to get rid of them as they are inherent. In this particular case I haven't found almost anything helpful and therefore I request insights from you on this topic. I just want to clarify first that I don't like advice coming from romanticism such as "you'll find the right one when you expect her the less" I don't even think that makes any sense.

I know this kind of sentimental issues may be trivial to many of you given the complexity of the questions many of you have written in this forum but please bear with me or at least recommend me some other please to talk about this.

Thanks a lot!

People might think that it's narcissistic to indulge in self love; but, I contest that notion.

Jesus is said to have claimed that one ought not treat others in a manner that they would not treat themselves. I believe that such a sentiment cannot arise without self-love. Self-love requires one to be consistent and have a high self-esteem.

Yet, many people tend to become assholes or pretentious due to this.

So, my question is twofold.

1. Is self-love possible without negative and highly selfish traits arising?
2. If so how does one go about doing this?

Love is the rational faith that selflessness properly produces selfishness, and that reciprocally, selflishness properly produces selflessness. Love is simply faith in this reciprocity. Self-love is selfishness out of this faith, while love of others is selflessness out of this faith.

Agree or disagree?

Thoughts arising from the Deep Songs thread.
George Harrison's 'Give Me Hope (Give Me Peace On Earth)':

GIVE ME LOVE. Sometimes you open your mouth and you don't know what you are going to say, and whatever comes out is the starting point. If that happens and you are lucky - it can usually be turned into a song. This song is a prayer and personal statement between me, the Lord, and whoever likes it. — George Harrison

As someone who lost religious faith some time ago, I wondered about any secular songs about 'hope' and if they could be seen as a kind of 'prayer'. How spiritual is the secular?
The lyrics are about hope, love and peace:

Give me hope, help me cope with this heavy load
Trying to touch and reach you with heart and soul — George Harrison

To focus on 'hope'. Is it something that is given, and if so, by whom? I think of it as both a feeling and a doing. It arises within ourselves and relates to others.

I've already written something about it in the 'Deciding what to do' thread, re Stoicism:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13648/deciding-what-to-do

I disagree with Epictetus:
“Don’t hope that events will turn out the way you want, welcome events in whichever way they happen: this is the path to peace.” Epictetus. Enchiridion. 8.
— Stoicism

I see hope as a motivational force. Hope for the best, expect or plan for the worse... — Amity

This reminded me of a previous discussion started by @T Clark
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/10427/my-favorite-verses-in-the-tao-te-ching/p1

My question to those who have some knowledge/experience:
What, if any, similarities do Stoicism and Taoism have when it comes to hope?
Is there a particular philosopher you think best tells the story of hope?
To bring love and peace, if not to the world, then one's heart...and mind.

From one translation of the Tao Te Ching

13
Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things. — Tao Te Ching - Stephen Mitchell

[my bolds]
'Hope is as hollow as fear'
Is this true?
Perhaps I misunderstand the message of Stoicism and Taoism but, as things stand, I disagree.
Can anyone help me better understand what is meant?

How is hope shown? How many ways do we share what we mean and hope to be understood?
Here's an example:

Coronavirus: Covid nurses' song of hope from Italy

Hope was the defining element of her song but not every line is positive.

One line - We're fighting this together with you, but don't call us heroes - reflects her response to the singing on balconies in support of health workers.

"They shouted 'You nurses are heroes! You're our saviours!' But we've always been there for people; it shouldn't have taken a situation like this to recognise what we do. I found it incredibly sad. I didn't feel gratified."
[...]
Light up the Rainbow was released last month. It is a poignant time for the song to come out. Bologna is once again in a red zone, with hospitals at breaking point and waiting lists for intensive care.
"The situation's really devastating, but I refuse to be sucked into negativity and pessimism," says Simona. I want to continue with my optimism because I can see a light at the end of this tunnel, just as I see a rainbow." — BBC News - Coronavirus: Covid Nurses' song of hope from Italy

What is your experience of hope as a feeling, action or philosophical concept?
Where have you expressed or found it?
Did you find it 'hollow as fear'?

Short stipulative definition of

"Unreciprocated love":

that is, a state of mind that does not require reciprocation to be maintained, something akin to being enlightened or love/compassion/desire in its purest form - without any material desire in return



This seems to be a state of mind where one does not need another to display affection to in turn receive affection.

Has anyone heard of this state of mind? Is it simply "compassion" said another way? I tend to view emotions not existing independently from one another; but, if one can feel love without reciprocation, then that seems the telos of every emotion possible to experience and display.

Thoughts?

A: Anyone here claims that he/she love someone?
B: Do you think it is a necessity to wish good for the person you love (unconditionally) to claim that you love that person?
C: If answers to both above questions are "yes", are you doing it like that?

Prohibition of drugs. Criminals love to see it. Why do we make their day?

You will know why criminals love to see us prohibit the various social drugs that we and our children consume.

Why did you vote to make their day?

Why are we fighting a drug war against our own children when our intelligentsia pushes for drug legalization so that we can then control in a better way what we and our children consume?

Our children are the ones dying due to our drug war, --- while we adults hide behind legislation that criminals love to see?

Regards
DL

I was reading that 80% of marriages end up soon after in divorce and that 10% are unhappy that they are married. I see this as a great tragedy that breaks down 90% of all families. From philosophy, what are some rational characteristics of love? How then could it be possible to keep love from leaving the household? All these questions on love can be discussed on this post.

What does it mean to love something or someone? Are we talking about the same thing when we say that " I love someone " and" I love that Idea or that thing " ?

I'm composing a reading list to start tackling the topic of love in philosophy. Here's what I got so far:

phaedrus
symposium
the nature of things (selections)
conditions of love: the philosophy of intimacy john armstrong
the art of loving erich fromm


I'll keep poking, because this is not enough. But I thought I'd post to see if other folks have already read papers or books on the topic, and could share to help compile a list of reading material on the topic.

Friends welcome.

I live next to a couple of swingers (think still active) with four children, kinda insane if you ask me. Anyhow, I fell in love with these neighbors wife about 4 years ago. She's at least 20 years older than me, but I've always been more interested in older women than younger ones. I always knew women were more emotionally mature than men from a young age. Something about mature women is reassuring to me. Having someone who is more experienced in life and emotions calms me. This woman has tried contacting me and asked if I wanted to talk with her in front of my house before me leaving to community college leaving me feeling very embarrassed about that situation, Rarely when I do go on walks in the evenings I see her sometimes. Then she once called me on my phone but I didn't talk back.

What I don't understand is why is she doing this to me? She really wants to talk to me and for me to treat her as my mother. I know I'm starting to sound crazy but this is the reality of the situation. I'm not trying to blame anyone here; but, understand the psychology of the situation so that this situation doesn't arise anymore or in the future in some different form.

I knew I fell in love with her when I left to college. Almost every day I would sit in my dorm and not want to study and think about her. I don't have sexual fantasies about her; but, I just really like her as a person or rather platonic. She seems intelligent as I found out one day she was a phil major in college.

Please let me know if this is a serious problem, it's not like I'm desperate as I've never spoken to her once throughout this whole time [only sent her a text message twice letting her know who I was to see if she was serious about this situation or if this was some sort of elaborate game for her to fill her time (stays at home almost every day), she never replied for the matter].

Thanks and feel free to laugh.

I am wondering if we have justification to conclude that love is real in any universal sense, other than as we find it, as a bonding emotion in mammals, or more generally in organisms.

For example, is the complex and subtle love experienced by intelligent humans, in some way a real expression of something universal in nature, or of divinity? Or on the contrary is it an intellectual, romanticised, expression of our animal emotions. Emotions evolved simply to reinforce the processes of sexual reproduction and the survival of the species.

Any thoughts?

Is it even possible to find work that we love(ie the work that eventually becomes our life, the work, infront of which work/life balance is BS)

Or is it the other way around, i.e we begin something and that eventually becomes the thing that we love/passion?

In my youth I thought the world could be conquered with logic and observation. A smart man is better than a dumb man even if no one would ever love him. A smart child could raise a family at a young age becuase at 9 were already raising thier own parents. Yet pure logic leaves humans in a wasteland of nothingness. I realize lack of compassion leads to a number of interpersonal issues. You can mask issues but they are there even if you dont realize it. Love brings stability. Humans need freinds.

This is something that won't leave my mind. Can there be true giving without sacrifice or Can there be true love without sacrifice? I would love to hear the thoughts of others or engage in exploration discussion. Thanks in advance for your thoughts and consideration.

When I was first awakening to questions about the nature of existence, I encountered a poem about the pondering of the origin of creation, the Nasadiya Sukta ("Not the non-existent"), the 129th hymn of the 10th mandala of the Indian (Hindi) Rigveda, translated into English to mean "Hymn of Creation". What is central to the key point of this article is that the Hymn of Creation was written around 3500 years ago, key because it reveals the truth that although he continues to try with fierce dedication, man is no closer to solving the riddle of existence than he did in ancient times. Here is the poem in its entirety, translation by Arthur Llewellyn Basham, 1954 (the final stanza being the inspiration for this post):

Then even non-existence was not there, nor existence,
There was no air then, nor the space beyond it.
What covered it? Where was it? In whose keeping?
Was there then cosmic fluid, in depths unfathomed?

Then there was neither death nor immortality
nor was there then the torch of night and day.
The One breathed windlessly and self-sustaining.
There was that One then, and there was no other.

At first there was only darkness wrapped in darkness.
All this was only unillumined cosmic water.
That One which came to be, enclosed in nothing,
arose at last, born of the power of heat.

In the beginning desire descended on it -
that was the primal seed, born of the mind.
The sages who have searched their hearts with wisdom
know that which is, is kin to that which is not.

And they have stretched their cord across the void,
and know what was above, and what below.
Seminal powers made fertile mighty forces.
Below was strength, and over it was impulse.

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

Whence all creation had its origin,
the creator, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
the creator, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows — or maybe even he does not know.

Oh, the frustrating treachery of it all! To seek for the reason or explanation for existence, perhaps for all of one's life up until that point only to find that the highest of the High, the One who should know isn’t telling. So it is here, of the silence of the Father, of the One, of the Invisible, of the Transcendent that I present my wisdom of the forming of the Wisdom Heart:

Oh, the heaviness of not knowing the why of me,
the why of Him - my heart bursted to be healed of this ignorance
so I could be cured everlasting of doubt and of fear
and of the hundreds of forms that arouse of this darkness
each and every day I greeted my world.

I asked, is this doubt God's doubt too? Is this fear God's fear too?
No answer came that satisfied my quest for absolute truth
so I was left to form my personal God of One
of its healing of the formation of the illusion of two, my God of
Self-Forgiveness and Self-Reconciliation,
my God of Self-Love.

In Self-Forgiveness and Love I walk, knowing that
scientists strive and politicians struggle and poets beseech
but none can penetrate God's silence.
It seems the world could use the healing wisdom
of the 129th hymn of the 10 mandala of the Rigveda.
And so I bring it forth.

People say philosophy is the love of wisdom.
What if it's the wisdom of love?

“Thou shalt love the Lord and thy neighbour”: a Reconsideration in Philosophical Perspective

Today is Easter Sunday in the Greek Orthodox church and I was thinking of the Gospel commandment “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God and thy neighbour”.

How would Christian philosophers on here interpret this commandment and what role do they think it plays or should play in everyday life?

(Jews and Muslims are also welcome to offer their own views if they have any.)

My thoughts/criticism of Bell Hook's "Love as the Practice of Freedom" where she argues that love cannot exist where a culture of domination thrives.

Take a look if you're interested:
[Link deleted]

.....

Not sure if I'm allowed to post links or just copy paste my article?

I haven't read much about this, so I can only speculate. Perhaps K was expecting to be able to reach a total commitment, and then realized he could not do it, and that his wavering was hurting R. — John

This link explains things somewhat.

It's clear that for Kierkegaard, his love for Regine played a primal, central and very real role in his philosophy. The interesting bit is in trying to consider the morality of K's actions. It seems to me that it can be looked at both ways - it seems to me that K. is involved in the same kind of deal that Abraham was when he went up to the mountain to sacrifice his dear son Isaac for God's sake.

Indeed Kierkegaard's whole corpus can be regarded as an attempt to justify himself. The teleological suspension of the ethical, the leap of faith, the religious stage which lies beyond the ethical, the knight of faith - Kierkegaard seems to have an intimate understanding of the reality behind those concepts through his own feelings and actions towards Regine.

Kierkegaard seemed to doubt his ability to be a husband or to make Regine happy. At the same time he also wanted to be a writer and completely devote his life to God. Regine herself believed that Kierkegaard sacrificed her to God. It seems certain that Kierkegaard was a man who completely believed in his own greatness, and was certain of the fame he will achieve after death:

What the age needs is not a genius—it has had geniuses enough, but a martyr, who in order to teach men to obey would himself be obedient unto death. What the age needs is awakening. And therefore someday, not only my writings but my whole life, all the intriguing mystery of the machine will be studied and studied. I never forget how God helps me and it is therefore my last wish that everything may be to his honour. — Soren Kierkegaard

So what's the truth? Did Kierkegaard break off the engagement he himself started with Regine out of fear and anxiety? As a way to escape his fears? Or did he break the engagement out of devotion to God?

Either way, are his actions ethical? Is Kierkegaard justified to break Regine's heart and abandon her, putting up a cold front despite her suffering? What's your opinion?

Does the following sentence...:

"I love you more than words can say."

... express its meaning?