because that would mean people should be paid based on moral worth of their services and their own moral worth or needs. But that's not what's being established in the market. — Benkei

It is not established in the market as you perfectly explained because since Spinoza divided education in enlightenment they teach us how to be "practical" not how to be moral.
The market and somehow "everything" do not care at all if the payer is or not a moralist. They just want his money to provide revenue to the State.

Any of you serfs out there feel as if the central authority in your country treats you as if you hold sway over them? — synthesis

Yes. Of course this is the feeling I have about the central authority of my country. I am somehow like a slave, probably not like someone in the Rome Empire who can be treated as trash but so similar. I have to pay bills, low paid jobs, injustices everywhere, privileges to others... They created a system where they (administrators of leviathan) always win.
But it is quite impossible live in a community without all of this. At least we have a guarantee.
Probably and just probably, one or 10 (no more) can do it this.

I don't see religion as something we need to escape from. If we do need to escape from something, CallMeDirac's way is not the right way. — T Clark

Yes you are right. I was saying that we don't have any escape from any kind of boss. Some can give us just stability (so called the leviathan "democracy") or others can give us destruction.
Also I guess @CallMeDirac was defending a secular education/system avoiding all kind of subterfuges.

I cringe whenever state proponents pretend taxation is the moral and compassionate thing to do, as if paying a tax was akin to taking care of the ill and feeding the poor. — NOS4A2

Yes I cringe too because it is supposed that if we pay taxes we will save other people's lives. Probably it is true thanks to this system at least we give to all the citizens an "opportunity" to start with. But I guess everything do not starts and neither ends just for paying taxes. If the system is screwed the distribution of benefits will be flawed too.

If the government is forced into austerity, usually by its own overspending, the services the population has grown to become dependent on could be lost. — NOS4A2

This is the point where I go totally pessimistic. I don't understand why some people cheers when the State get into debt more than 100 % of their GDP. Like... What's going on here? This method will make us poorer and more dependent from the governors and their laws. At least, I guess, in this situation we will not be so lost because the people nowadays are not ignorant and they understand when the State is not doing their work good or a proper administration.
I guess this is something interspersed. We are lost because... We are so dependent of the State/situation?

Do you believe people are THAT weak? I believe people, once given the taste of freedom again, will not be able to get enough — synthesis

Yes because we the humans have proven for centuries that we cannot live in the wild (neither freedom) without an order. The different scenario would be a chaos. Probably a few can do it but not all
We don't have the problem that system and government have ended up disappointed us

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. — T Clark

We don't have a chance to escape then.

Just look at the power that corporations and government has over individuals in the West now. Can anybody suggest that this has been a good thing? — synthesis

Indeed. It is an awful abomination created by us. But try for just a month living off the corporations, governments, etc... I will not say it is impossible but you will play in hard mode.
Also, I guess soon or later will be appear that feeling of trying to speak with someone or being part of something, I mean the unbeatable leviathan

why are so many people smitten with group mentality? — synthesis

Sometimes I think it looks like we are forced by the system stay together, inside the group. But somehow I guess it has the natural perception too.
It is very hard to live in loneliness or not following tendencies/thoughts/ideas and the persons who defend these.
There are even scientifics who defends that loneliness are pretty bad for our mental health.
I guess the problem is not the natural stimulus but how toxic some groups can be

I'm reading Locke's Essay on Human Understanding and Leibniz answer to this. Anyone who has read the same text(s) that wants to discuss it? — Tiaclarice

I also read Locke's Essay on Human Understanding. It is one of the best books of philosophy ever written in my opinion (this is why I went back in the day so empirical he). I am from Spain so I read the Spanish commented version of two philosophers from my country.
Yes! I want to discuss it too. What is the matter?

I also had as you the delusion experience. I didn't dreamed about something that serious of seeing someone dying but I felt the same sensation as you. My dream was about (I had this delusion hundred of times) a meeting of persons that are very important in my life in a white diaphanous room.
This is not something random. I usually meet this persons in diaphanous rooms but why is it white?
Here is where philosophy arises. I want to give to the white colour a positive meaning and considerate it is something related to transparency because the persos I meet in the room are always evaluating me. So I want to understand this is the real meaning. White room can reflect transparency in they way they look at me.
But these are just my guesses.

Yes. So government suck but at least with them we are not still eating in the gass and being slaves to others. Agree, you are right in this point. Somehow it is evolved to provide us security, freedom, equality, etc... (well it depends which government we are talking about go to Brazil or Myanmar...) but it does not get the pass they deserve. They (aka government/leviathan) instructed us that literally without them it is impossible to live in standards. Well I am somehow disagree. If you go to some villages or folks in USA or Canada they live happily despite they do not afford all of our rights/development.
so I guess the problem along the government is the mass which is uncontrollable.

As @Tzeentch said in another thread:

I would still regard it as a necessary evil, at best.

The royals do not serve and the media do not inform

@unenlightened

This is the main key how royals stay in the power. The secret pact of hide all conflicts between the royal family and press. They know it is a very important instrument of power. It can help you to clear your image or let you tumbling down.
I guess what Meghan and Harris did is strategic. Of course she lived racist issues inside Backingham Palace but how can she criticise it? It is not an easy step go and point the British royal family as racists.
If they spoke with Oprah is due to a clever move. Now it is a debate inside the UK about what the hell is going on with the royals. Which is more credible? Meghan or the royals?
If she did this during her time in UK nobody would believe it. But this interview in the US leaving from the royal family says it all. The British press would probably hide it because is a shame but they wouldn't share it with the world.
So here is more guilty the press/media stuff despite all the racist issues we will looking forward in the next months.

I would still regard it as a necessary evil, at best.

@Tzeentch

Thomas Hobbes in the Leviathan said: Homo humini lupus. I don't like the government idea either but as you said is somehow necessarily because we the humans tend to be so selfish or even dangerous to others. More than an evil, it is a beast in an uncontrolled behaviour. That's the most intriguing paradox.
The government can help you to solving problems or... It is them who create those.

Freedom is not absence of government. People are much free-er for the sake of legitimate institutions!

@counterpunch

Well it depends a lot of the quality of government we are talking about. I respect your point of view but is so optimistic and positive towards the leviathan. If we are "free" (nobody actually can say is free since the moment you are thought with a status quo as a child) is due to the level of ethics from the individuals not the government. Governors are just there to increase their personal profit not the common.
It is true in some part that anarchy and some system without the leviathan is flawed because we the humans need an authority to control us. But... That authority in the most of cases are even worse than the human selfishness. I guess we just overrated the modern states since Westfalia peace. It looks like we don't have any other solution... Why not?

Free/secularism education

As @NOS4A2 previously said If a neighbor told us we need to make a compulsory contribution to their revenue we’d cry “Extortion!”. But when the government does it we call it “taxes”.

It is legal robbery, plain and simple.

As @Tom Storm also previously said:
I don't mind paying taxes. I live in a community.

“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.” Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes


Here is the ethical debate about taxes. Which side you want choose? Here is the thread Taxes.

But the only laws required are the ones that defend human rights and limit state power

who makes the law, cheats. never forget it.

As I said all will make sense in due time. This is hopefully where it will do so. The abolishment of corrupt institutions must start with religion. Religion is possibly the worst invention of humankind and it has lasted longer than any other

@CallMeDirac

Do not forget the State. They both are leviathans. I guess one cannot live without the other. If you think how much power they have it is even scary

This can be done through education and debates, but these so far have failed. We must not stay in the minority for any longer and must RISE UP AND TAKE POWER

Revolution in this era? Sorry millennials love live so easily in Instagram or Twitter. Does not matter how much the world is tumbling down.

Things like a major hunk of your country deciding to secede (Catalan, perhaps?) might contribute to collective unhappiness

@Bitter Crank

A few years ago I would tell you "I wish they do not being independent from us" but how it looks like now... I want them completely apart. Spain already has a lot of problems, we do not have time for selfish people and its own interest. The State is wasting so much resources and time with them. Probably the best solution is let them go...

If that figure is truly reflective of the UK's level of happiness, then it's probably the case that they just aren't paying attention. Have they not noticed the negative consequences of Brexit?

I do not know haw bad can be. It is true leaving from the EU (at least they can do it...) it wasn't the best idea. Nevertheless we are having different circumstances here. Probably UK will start losing some money due to the agreements with EU but I guess in the long-term would be a totally different scenario. Also they have the British pound which is a very powerful currency.
Despite all tbe economic stuff... Isn't it very sad that a country which fought for freedom back in WWII let the European Union? I guess yes. It is not only guilty the UK. We have to look at Eurpean Bank and German monopoly.

This included teaching literary, music, and art appreciation because a well-rounded education means well-rounded individuals.

My life is devoted to an intellectual revolution and reestablishing the liberty we once had.

@Athena

Yes. Of course it is. When you have well-rounded education you not only have well rounded individuals but more empathy and lack of violence in the streets. We both are agree that everything that can create beautiful things need a previous solid educational system. You in the US are not only. Here in Europe is the same. They do not teach you how to be a well-rounded person they teach how to work.
Also, I am focus in a search of freedom/intellectual revolution with education. To be honest sometimes it is difficult find persons who wants to improve their knowledge like you or the members in this forum. Because it is so easier not asking anything when you are being paid for someone. They (the State) are clever because they developed an interesting leviathan: if at least we can make you an employee you will be happy because salary is everything. Without it you are not longer in the capitalism era
So, most of the people ask for a job not how to be a good person in society or the pursuit of happiness. We are not longer in the Greek era that's true. Spinoza is guilty for changing everything back in the overrated period of time called as enlightenment

But... Here we are someone like us. Nothing is totally lost. We can change for better. This is a properly use of internet and its data. We can do it but it takes a lot of change.

Because of the Euro you had to follow a monetary policy that would never work for you, because you had another economy. — ChatteringMonkey

Yes. It is a monetary policy that obviously doesn’t work for the Mediterranean countries but somehow this is a big win for Germany. They wanted something like this. Most of the countries divided and a flawed except them or some nordic nordic countries. That’s all.
But... they are not only guilty in this problem. My governors only put investment in tourism and that’s a big fail

The answer... the private. The proof... look no further than the pandemic response. — creativesoul

Agree. Literally private and money preferences are taking advantage of other countries. Look at Israel he is paying to their own benefits and then they had a huge number of vaccines. Many European countries are negotiating with Russia trying to buy Sputnik instead of some consensus.
Pandemic showed us how selfish the government are.

The Euro was a very bad deal for the south. — ChatteringMonkey

We don’t have any other solution. It is bad but it could be worse...

It is only our intellect that demands a purpose to our lives as a filler when we decide that sitting around and twiddling our thumbs is more productive than actually doing something. — synthesis

Yes because somehow this motivates us. Nevertheless it looks like some citizens of some countries have a solid path in the meaningful life not like others (we do not count China because yes it is flawed).

China at 93%? — ChatteringMonkey

Yes it is true this is hard to believe this is why I didn’t want mention Asian countries because tend to overrate everything.

I've been to Spain multiple times, and didn't have the impression that people were fundamentally more unhappy. Spain has been through a rough patch lately to be sure, with lots of unemployment and lack of perspective in general, but these numbers seem exaggerated. — ChatteringMonkey

Truste me they are not. You have a perspective of us because you visited my country multiple times but remember just for tourism. It is important to emphasise that touristic countries tend to make an unrealistic mask just to attract a lot of people (Spain does it) I don’t know which territories you visited but I guess the common ones as Andalucía or another Mediterranean beach. Well yes they are happy more they have to because we are in a mess. I don’t even understand my own compatriots but it seems very legit the 38 %.
I was buying some stuff in a market and a random dude asked us: “do you have some coins?” And then some woman replied “I wish I could give you some coins but I earn 400 € at month”
This made me feel sad my own country man...

Maybe the question of meaning is hitting Spain especially hard now because it is traditional more Catholic than the rest of Europe and late to the secular party? And so it hasn't had the time to deal with this question of meaning for a secular point of view? — ChatteringMonkey

Well it is not as Catholic as looks like. XIX Spain was so secular. But Franco wining the civil war put another history in the books...

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there is true meaning in life — Dharmi

Sorry. I am so stupid to understand you. My fault

but we should live our lives as if it existed and try earnestly to find it instead of giving up and throwing in the towel. — Dharmi

Yes. You nailed it. There is not a true meaning in our lives. It is something we created. The abstract complex of meaningful life depends on the person itself.
But I don't really know if it's worthy find a solution or a result of our meaningless life instead of giving up. This is why nihilism appears. For me, it is hard to find a meaning in life, even more harder being happy. I am not saying here it is impossible. But somehow it looks like we are forced to discover it.

Also as you said previously. This society is so guilty because they try to send us a fake meaning of life that only a few people can get. This is the main reason why probably there are a lot of sad persons depending the country. They (I refer oligarchs) established a weird way of living: income, being attractive to others and family.
Excuse me but... If I don't live this establishment am I worst? It is impossible to discover because "meaningful" life is abstract and has to be encouraged by educational system.

I think no. It is not racism. It is just personal preferences if you prefer to have sex with white or black people, red/blonde hair etc... Because they are pure personal criteria.
Racism is when you are putting limits to other's rights when they are different race/ethnics from you.

what's the difference between answer types 3 and 4? — TheMadFool

The answer number 3 is correct. The number 4 is incorrect.
When you ask me something I can answer whatever I want but if I do not want to I do the nodded act or another no verbal form.
As you explained it is not only a paradox but grammatically incorrect or ambiguous.
When someone types "no comment" he is literally doing so. If I really do not want participate in this thread I simply no comment but I don't type

no comment

because it is clearly not grammatically correct because I am not expressing properly in that way.
In my opinion "no comment" expression is empty and doesn't make effect as just silence

The principle of equality has prepared men for these things: it has predisposed men to endure them, and oftentimes to look on them as benefits.

This does not satisfy me: the nature of him I am to obey signifies less to me than the fact of extorted obedience.

As you said it was so worthy of read. Thank you for the recommendation of this article/extract from a book. Well this hardens what we are talking about in this thread. We are agree the system is flawed. But it looks like we don’t know what to change. In the Ancient Times they tried everything to establish a situation where the people can have the same opportunities and being useful inside the nation (I refer as nation because we clearly established that State is so different)
But I guess we just created a monster who is by us with zero empathy. We learn how to work and then pay the bills, but... what about happiness? Respecting each other? Ethics?
No! Because we still live in big villas where only the strongest/richest can govern. Everybody has no chance to be a ruler. Let’s be honest
If you look inside the government it is even scary. But... we do not have any system yet. So is this system or a military/religious one.

Exhorted obedience. That is the key of this. We are as obedient as in the ancient times but at least we are not getting in slavery or killed for someone with more power than us... (?)

Good people will do evil things just because the law tells them to. They are no longer acting as men, but as officials. — NOS4A2

Yes because they are brainwashed but fortunately we are not longer being ruled by a military system who forces you to make evil things. Yes we are officials but in not so bad issues inside the diaspore of time we were born. Imagine born in XV or XVI century and kill random people because a king told you just to plump his power.

Asian Man for their translation of the Bible to Japanese: — Gus Lamarch

We even have "Ethiopian Jesus": — Gus Lamarch

Ok, this was so painful to see... I never seen it until to day. With your images it is proven that clearly church used the image of Jesus just for spread their power around the globe. When such an image is so distorted for centuries it makes so difficult to believe in. It is impossible having all the ethnics at the same time, does not matter the perfect human theory that Church is used to use in this debates.
Again, it is interesting because somehow he has to born in Middle East but Church characterised him as a person from a book.

This also happens with Judas as a traitor of Jesus. What about this person? Has he even existed? Just another metaphor from the church using a person model?

We live in large enough societies that your actions will affect people you don't even know and will probably never meet. — Isaac

Well yes. This point can be a good argument about why governments need to enforce the pay of taxes through laws. We live in nations where supposedly we have to help each other but sadly it is not as easy as just the theory. Keep in mind that taxes are always a political debate to start with. So it is not inner in each person give their benefits to help people they will probably never meet

All of the state’s institutions are directed towards preserving its own life, increasing its own power, and enlarging the scope of its own activity. — NOS4A2

This is why sometimes people give up about taxes, justice, public administration, etc... because it looks like governments build the institutions just to help their own interests forgetting the interests of the population.
So... the institutions are not bad at all. It is the selfishness of governors that poison everything they touch.

So this just adds to the mystery. — Dharmi

Yes. I am not against your criteria. Of course is so speculative the existence of Jesus Christ. What I want to say that, Nazareth, or wherever he was supposedly born is nearly Lebanon or Palestine. So If Jesus ever existed his skin had to be brown due to geography logic.
This is the reason why it looks like the image of Jesus is somehow used as marketing by church/Vatican to be more easy look alike.

Why would you think you could spend money that doesn't belong to you? — Isaac

Interesting. I didn’t see it that way. You see it as a primary factor the fact 20 % of our income belongs to the State. This is made in a way that our life in a 20 % depends on State. I am not saying here it is bad but somehow impressive it is inflicted by the laws which percent belongs to State. This is somehow modern sacrifices. We have to sacrifice a 20 % to maintain the State and public services. Agree.

But why we have to enforce it by laws? Why is not innate sharing our benefits to others as human behaviour? Probably because most of the people would avoid paying taxes?

More than a paradox I guess it is even grammatically wrong. Because that person used an expression that did not adjust to the context/practical realism. If someone asks something to me I can answer whatever I want but I can't say "no comment" because is so ambiguous. Probably nodded act is more efficient here.
If I do not want respond I literally do no do it. Because saying ambiguous things as "no comment" is ineffective.

This thread is a good example itself: imagine instead of answering you I didn't want to. Well I just do not answer but I don't say "no comments"

Who do you imagine government is? What do you imagine government is for? — tim wood

Yes. I am not saying government is useless. I want to try to point out why the government needs to enforce us to pay taxes by laws. It is interesting because this shows that probably most of the citizens will not do it by their own.
To be honest, I do not know what the government is for but yes we need because it is impossible live in a society without authority. It would be a chaos. I imagine a less aggressive government but I am dreaming.

Nevertheless, I guess issues that important as taxes should depend on law and judges. I mean, more judicial control rather than politicians because it is so easy to change the tax machine when every 4 years a new government is elected.

You established a very important dilema inside this topic and it is interesting. Which course of action should take the government to make us pay taxes? Why do they need it ?
Here we have clearly a moral/ethical problem. Somehow most of all democracies of the world use this system. Pay taxes to use the public services and then, if you don't do so, you will get punish.
But... Whey they control us? Do not they believe in us? I guess it us noticeable that a considerable amount of rich people do not want pay taxes. I guess they are just somehow selfish but here we have the debate itself.
Are we really free with the money/income we earn each month? Because if we do not pay taxes the government will enforce us to do it. So we are not free at all. In this point, you are even more free buying a property than having the money in a bank.

Note: I am not sayin here that not paying taxes is good. But somehow our income is attached to government laws and regulations just to ensure that everyone (or the majority) will pay their portion needed it.

Perhaps as a discipline it is not taken seriously enough then in the current educational systems.

@TaySan

Literally this is the main problem. Our educational system doesn't take seriously important things which come from philosophy as ethics, moralism, oratory, debate through good arguments, what do we want in life... the reach of happiness

I just read your interesting points of view about Jesus Christ existence or his speculation.

As Gus Lamarch perfectly said: The figure of Jesus Christ had been so distorted, so changed, so adapted, that it is impossible to distinguish the false from the real

This is one of the biggest problems inside Christianity. How they always distorted the image of Jesus. According to scientific research it is supposed that Jesus Christ was born in Nazareth/an Nasira which it is today Israel/Palestine. But it was always been a dessert zone in the Middle East. Probably somehow influenced not only Roman Empire but Persian.
My point here is how ridiculous the symbolism and image of Jesus is a white man with blue yes and blond hair too. Excuse me? It is literally impossible due to the ethnics of the place he was born.

For example. With all the respect possible. It is just impossible of Jesus looking like he comes from Germany or Sweden.
[img]http://

Nevertheless, this representation is closer to Nazareth or Palestine geography or ethnics.

[img]http://


So when someone is so transform during the centuries it makes so difficult to believe in him. Because it makes a free interpretation about a human where he was a prophet in a dessert but ended up creating symbolism about cross/jesus representation. But it looks like there is some marketing flying around.