6. The right to bear arms. — Bob Ross

It is still very complicated to me to see bear arms as a constitutional right, or even more, a core value of a nation. Whenever some of you strongly defend the right of having access to weapons, I would like to answer. You want to have a weapon in your home to defend yourself from whom? -- Also, is there a correlation between carrying guns and safety? I think not. -- On the other hand, don't you trust your own neighbours or officemates? If you think that you live in a safe county, I can't see why you should have a gun in your house. 

It seems like if we decide to ban you from bearing guns, you would feel 'oppresed' by the state, and your freedom will not be fulfilled.

Liberals are moving away from these core values in the name of social justice. — Bob Ross

Interesting. Why don't you view social justice as a core value too?

I think a healthcare system that is actually governed by the free-market would be best; and the right to bear arms is more important: what does good health care do if you can’t protect your rights? — Bob Ross

Holy sh*t. You left me speechless. It is true that my country is poorer, but honestly, here reigns more common sense than there. I guess it is the luck of being born in Europe.

I'm not sure what you mean by "core value." — Hanover

Me either, Hanover. That's why I asked @Bob Ross. But you miss an important feature. He said 'American core values'. Are there Belgian core values? Swedish core values? Etc.

America is a capitalist country, which makes it less Marxist than other countries, which I guess is just true. — Hanover

The European Union is also capitalist, but whenever Social Democrats rule the Commission, they are labelled as 'Marxist' by some Americans. They aren't. That's what I tried to explain.

. I don't know how much time Americans spend thinking and commenting upon the working model of Spain, but, to the extent it is more communistic than the US, that would likely not be something many Americans would want to emulate. — Hanover

It is not communist. They work using a cooperation method, instead of the average pyramidal hierarchy system. They are doing it well, but maybe it only works in small towns in Basque Country.

The US does have strong national healthcare. Your concern is over affordability and accessibility. — Hanover

Yeah.

The M-16? Sure, we all walk around with fully automatic rifles. — Hanover

I wish that was only ironical... but you know there are a large number of citizens who carry guns with them, and that's crazy when it is seen by the rest of us.

Isnt there a split of values in your country, — Joshs

My country never had core values, Joshs. We are even more chaotic and incomprehensible than the USA.

We never really experienced the First Industrial Revolution and Second Industrial Revolution to have a view on rural and urban areas. When London was the core of industrial civilisation, Spain was still rural altogether, and we continued in this context until the 1980s.

I think America woke up and realized that this is getting out-of-hand; and wants to go back to America’s core values. — Bob Ross

You mean the continent altogether? :razz:

Jokes aside...

For a foreigner like me, it is complicated to understand America's core values. Following your views and posts, it seems that an American core value is gun freedom; also, you are against censorship, but you would avoid having a LGTBIQ flag in your classroom; then, you claim that it is essential to have different beliefs, but some of you label as 'Communist' the working model of Mondragón (Spain) for not being capitalist enough. 

A core value... complicated, mate.

For me, it is to have a strong national healthcare system. So, to you is carrying a M-16 in your big polluting Ford truck.

A Death in the Family. My Struggle 1. by Karl Ove Knausgård.

After Ove's father drank to death, this Norwegian author decided to write a set of novels called 'My Struggle'.

The collection is formed by six novels, but you can start with the one you want. They are not necessarily sorted.
Mostly, the first novel focuses on childhood, the acceptance of the death of his father, family problems, etc.

A great author that I discovered thanks to Jon Fosse.

The Democrats put very little money in conservative states except sometimes for specific federal candidates. Most money is spent for "swing states", e.g. Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Arizona, Michigan. — T Clark

Exactly what it was in my mind. Industrialised states with white working-class families. It surprises me that Georgia or Arizona are plausible states to flip them into blue. Good luck. You—and Europe, of course— deserve politicians who govern and build up, not ones who destroy and divide people.

All and all, I think globalization has been bad for American workers — T Clark

Really? In what sense?

That's a good point. I didn't mention it because I'm not sure any foreign policy position would have much impact on an election here. — T Clark

I thought the same. Yet I considered that maybe those points would be also relevant to the American voter. Since I now understand that they might not be considered, I can't name more proposals or points to convince people to vote for Democrats. What if the donkey (I love the party logo) gives up on 'Indiana' or 'Oklahoma' and they put all the efforts in an industrialised working class like the one of Wisconsin and Pennsylvania?

Interesting proposals and points, but all of them are mainly focused on national issues and how to convince American working-class families.

I wonder if foreign policy is relevant to those eventual voters and motivates them to vote for one or the other.

There are a lot of examples of that, but it comes to mind three:

1) Palestine's sovereignty. I guess Democrats are pro-Palestine, but I don't know if it is an important matter amongst the voters

2) European Union. Democrats see us as friends or pals, at least. Republicans are clearly against us, and they flirt with Russia. Maybe it could motivate the voters that their leader prefers European values—we are not perfect. I know. I know.—rather than Putin's old-school hating style of everything and everyone.

3) UK. Republicans seem to flirt with Brexit and isolating them even more. This is a terrible idea, and the Western world should be united, not chopped into chunks. A person who believes in a united world should vote Democrat.

But all of the above is from a foreign policy perspective, and I don't know to what extent this is relevant for the average American voter.

Edit: javi2541997 - I see you have deleted your post. Why? — Amity

Yes, sorry, Amity. After reading my post again, I realised that it wasn't well elaborated. I saw that you didn't reply to my post yet, so I thought I was in time to delate what I wrote before you could read it. 

But I see I was wrong because you quoted a paragraph of that post in time.

I tend to be wary about what I write. Maybe too much, and maybe it wasn't a big deal.  :sweat:

.

I agree. However, what makes me furious is that future generations would have to 'adapt' to adverse conditions such as scarcity or weather. This is clearly—in my opinion and view—a consequence of climate change and the guilt of our representatives for not taking the correct decisions on time. Yet others—climate change deniers—believe some shite that this is just the fate of our humanity and we are overreacting.

grow enough food to feed the population — Punshhh

We started to experience this issue regarding water. When summer comes, there are vast municipalities in Spain where it is impossible to drink potable water! The pits and lagoons are already drought!

Well, I don't know why I am speaking in the future because we already have zones that became a bloody desert.

Have heard of the mythical Mondrogon corporation. Americans would do well to learn about work cooperatives in school if wasn't always considered anti-American socialist propaganda. — Nils Loc

Ah, you mean the way the Basque work in Arrasate. Yes, it is excellent, actually. There are other parts of Spain where they work similarly. I mean, without the hierarchical pyramid of power and responsibility. The workers are the same grade, and they solve the problems themselves. If I am not mistaken, Galician dockers do the same. 

Wonder if Amazon (corporation) workers in anywhere in the world could get away with this, or is the labor monitoring so fine-tuned that it makes the potential for 'Spanish practices' pretty much impossible. — Nils Loc

I would not be 100% sure. Maybe there is a subsidiary in Seville that leaves the cargo stranded, claiming Eastern and Christmas additional payments. Or maybe this happens at Liverpool docks—who can know where the next 'Spanish practices' will be done?

Anyway, don't forget to not clock in and out at the same time so no one knows what actual hours are worked. That's outrageous; perfidious, treacherous, sneaky, and two-faced. :naughty:

Am sure there are very interesting examples of it written down somewhere. — Nils Loc

Sí. :smile:

In the Royal Mail’s case, there are apparently 92 ‘Spanish practices’, which are said to include workers claiming overtime if mail volumes reach a certain level, or clocking in and out at the same time so no-one knows what actual hours are worked,—this is indeed my favourite :lol:—and additional payments being claimed for Easter and Christmas, even if no overtime is actually worked.

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/have-a-rant-spanish-practices-is-an-outdate-phrase/

The term became infamous in the 1980s as a result of battles between the print unions and management in the newspaper industry in Fleet Street. The Spanish practices included deliberate overmanning; union control over who was hired; demands for cash payments to remake a page as deadlines approached; machine-room employees who claimed wages for workers who didn’t exist; and men who might be absent for whole days while moonlighting at other jobs but who would be covered by unspoken agreements not to notice.

https://www.worldwidewords.org/topicalwords/tw-spa2.htm


All of that only happened in the UK. It seems to be a British thing, but with quixotic and Spanish tones. 

It is interesting that you interpret the slang 'Spanish Practices' as when we point out lazy people or laid-back culture. This is what I expected when I read the headline.
But, surprisingly, there is another interpretation around on behalf of trade unions or workers. Doing unauthorised working methods with the aim of being listened by the bosses and changing the labour conditions. Hence the example of Royal Mail workers.

We don't take naps on the company's time! That's why the shops are closed from 3 p.m. until 5 p.m.

What's some good poetry you've been reading? — Jafar

I mostly read haiku. But I recommend you give a try to Sikelianos' poetry. A wonderful poet. There is a 1996 edition of selected poems that is pretty good.

It depends, but I also prefer to focus on only the novel I am currently reading. However, if I am also interested in poetry, I do not mind flicking through it at the same time.

I've said this before - I'm glad you are posting more of your own writings here. — T Clark

I am glad to share my creativity here, and I am pleased that you read what I usually post. :smile:

It is a British expression that originated in the Elizabethan era. I never knew of this slang until today too. It randomly popped up in my news of BBC and Daily Mail. The rest of the text is written by me. I mean, the exchange between the Lord and the peasants. I considered it funny, and my imagination started to flow.

For further clarification, I cited two persons using 'Spanish practices' expression in context.

I wonder where they will locate their Gulag Archipalago? — Wayfarer

Didn't they already have their own gulag since 2002?

Could be a nuclear war. — frank

I will never understand that level of destruction. What is the point of dropping nuclear attacks in a territory? Japan suffered the consequences, but they came back fast. After the end of WWII, every conflict should have been resolved diplomatically. We failed regarding this point. Europe is also guilty, absolutely. We just looked the other way, and our passivity is also reportable. I hope I am just overreacting, and the world will not look that bad for the next lustrum, but my expectations are low right now.

It's understood that Trump will back an Israeli attack on Iran. — frank

He will back a lot of Netanyahu's reckless actions for the next four years.

As for Israel, you better be thankful the US donor class "supports" it, because it has no friends left and is a pariah state, for good reason. — Manuel

:100: :clap:

Más alto pero no más claro si quieren.

One of the main problems on the horizon after US elections is how the artificial state will wipe out Gaza and erase towns and cities in Lebanon, legitimately, because his best friend—Uncle Sam—allows him to do so. :sad:

It seems that men need to see a mother model when they vote. — Eros1982

I couldn't have said it better. :up:

Are western values beyond criticism?
And why is liberalism the arbiter of truth? — Swanty

Precisely, western values and liberalism are highly criticised and discussed on TPF. It is obvious that you are a new member. Wait, and you will see.

It is true that Kamala's nomination was awful, and everything happened very fast. But it was that, or continuing with Biden, and the result would have been even worse, honestly.

I think it is important to do self-criticism, but on the other hand, I think we should look at what the people really have as values. They voted against a system. Donald Trump is charged with multiple felonies, but surprisingly, people decided to believe that the problem is the judiciary system and not him. Let's see what happens in the next four years. Time passed by more quickly than we thought. But, in my opinion, the key would be to switch the mindset of the people and help them to believe and respect the system again.

I've seen plenty of secular bigotry and xenephobia here. — Swanty

I don't think it is actually secular bigotry. It is just that we are in a philosophy forum, and philosophy itself has always confronted religion.

There are threads on Christianity. I can't remember if there is any regarding Islam. I took part in them with my deepest respectful behaviour. I even discovered Kazantzakis thanks to Alkis Piskas. My image of Jesus changed to better, but religion still has complex features to my understanding. If you want to start a thread about a religious topic, I don't think you would have issues. But be open to receiving criticism!

We had some people here (in the Philosophy Forum) who argued that only stupids can vote for Donald Trump. I told them that though I am an immigrant myself, I would never call stupid someone who voted for him. — Eros1982

The U.S. elections seemed to be an IQ test, and look at the results. Now it depends on the way each of us sees it. Are we entitled to call more than 73 million voters crackpots? There are more voters for Trump than citizens in my country.

Within those 73 million voters, there are women, Latinos, and probably LGTBQ too. What if those voted against Kamala because of a sexist bias? 

Latinos are very sexist; that's 100% accurate. 

I see that feminism is not strong enough as it is in Europe.

I will not understand if Trump obtained some LGTBIQ votes. That would be reckless and crazy, but are they stupid? No, I don't think so.

What I always understood enfant terrible as this: One whose startlingly unconventional behavior, work, or thought embarrasses or disturbs others.

It is up to each of us to interpret whether it is good or bad. :smile:

If Donald Trump is a metaphor for something, what is that something? I mean to you, — frank

Good question.

I would say Trump is a metaphor for Enfant terrible, but in an American context.

It is interesting to read your testimony because the brief information that arrived here told basically otherwise. Republicans—or Trump supporters, specifically—were the ones who went against the other. We didn't have a great live follow-up American election because the press was covering the flood disasters in Valencia. But most of the time it seemed that Democrats were labelled as chill people who voted against a liar and felon.

But most of all the behavior of his opposition pushed me to support him. — NOS4A2

It is difficult to experience and perceive all of that when I don't live in the USA. Do you imply that their opponents play dirty to poisoning the people? I thought the main point of voting for Trump was economic features, but I wasn't aware that the attitude of Democrats was also a reason.

In what thread did this happen? — ssu

The mods already warned him in this thread: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15408/rules/latest/comment

But Lionino couldn't control himself, and I will miss him. I had good and interesting exchanges. It is difficult to meet an Iberian neighbour on the Internet, by the way.

American education system delivers yet again — Banno

"Just watch, once Trump increases the price of all imported goods on the consumer end, inflation will go down. That’s math or something. I think.”

Another aspect of the American education system that will be able to hold strong under Trump is their time honoured tradition of school shootings.

:rofl:

Latino sexism maybe. — frank

It was sexism, frank, indeed. But it is very surprising when Latino countries such as Argentina had Cristina Kirchner or Eva Perón; in Honduras, Xiomara Castro is the President, etc. It is mind-blowing that they prefer to vote for a man who is clearly against Hispanic culture rather than a woman. As I said yesterday, I didn't think the sexism was that severe.

It seemed clear to me at least a year out. — AmadeusD

Now it seems that 'It seemed clear to most people at least a year out' since he won Pennsylvania twelve hours ago.  :roll:

A defeat for the US establishment is a win for the rest of the world. — Tzeentch

Nah, hold your machiavellian ass. If you truly think they will get destroyed by their own idiosyncrasy, well, that is unlikely to happen.

It is official. He just won Wisconsin.

Ready for Trump 2.0.?

@NOS4A2, how do you feel right now after defending him for four straight years?

At least last time he visited my country where he met Putin, so he know where my country is. — ssu

:lol:

That's a relief. I believe he doesn't know to pin the Iberian Peninsula in an European map, but he filtered with Morocco back in the day... so we have to be cautious from now on.

Oh, wait. My country will do anything—as always—and they will keep having Rota and Morón bases.

What's next for us?

• EU military as the highest priority
• EU military as the highest priority
• EU military as the highest priority
• EU military as the highest priority
• EU military as the highest priority

The Luxembourg prime minister also said he wants a permanent seat for the EU on the UN Security Council.

It is now or never, mates. We can't trust Trump's behaviour towards European interests. It is time to stay together more than ever, leaving aside our differences. No more cracks among us.

Dude took all the swing states. Wtf? — frank

Yeah, it is crazy. Surprisingly, he beat the odds.