There are other choices available. There is still a choice being made, and it is Y. It being entirely deterministic or not seems to have nothing to do with the fact that a choice is being made, and by something capable of considering alternatives.

Your definition of 'choice' seems to be different than the usual one, which is a selection between multiple options. You apparently think the alternative options are not open to being chosen, rather than your processes having the option, but rejecting them.
Going to court and pleading 'not-guilty because physics made me do it' doesn't stand up. Your criteria for making the selection is what made you do it, and it is that criteria for which you are responsible

I am, in fact saying your use of the word "available" is nonstandard. If an "alternative" will never be selected, is it really available? I do not consider "possible" and "available" to be synonyms. It's really a matter of perspective. From the perspective of POSSIBLE conclusions, there are many. From the perspective of the purported decider, there was always going to be one conclusion. Identical to the situation where there is only one possible solution.

Kind of like two sports betting guys arguing whether the "better" pro team can ever lose, since some consider the outcome of the game as the definition of "better". Well, if you use that definition (the better team is the one thst beat it's opponent), then, no, the better team can never lose.

As to your last paragraph, some would label what you call: "your criteria" as Free Will.

That doesn't seem at all obvious to me. An agent who doesn't know what the future holds can still undergo a process of "decision making" even if that agent is fully deterministic and it will always make the same decision given the same starting state.

A deterministic chess program for example, which looks at a number of legal moves and decides which one it "likes" more based on some position-rating algorithm

True, from the "decider's" perspective, he's going through the motions we commonly associate with decision making, but to an outside observer who has true insight (in this example of Determinist universe), would see that as Determinists claim, the idea of choice (and thus a true decision) is an illusion.

In your example you're presenting as if the program and the algorithm are two separate entities akin to the man and his mind. In reality all there is is an algorithm, which is at it's core a glorified set of equations. Just as an algebraic equation doesn't "choose" between all possible answers, finally arriving at the one, true answer. It just has one true answer.

Just to be clear, the ANTECEDENT brain state is what I describe as the physical and electrical state of the brain. While pondering occurs (obviously) DURING decision making (assuming there is, in fact decision making). Thus they are different entities, but are not mutually exclusive.
— LuckyR
But the subsequent 'pondering' is also describable as physical and electrical state of the brain. They're just a little bit later. This is of course presuming that 'pondering' is a function of the brain, which plenty of people deny.

Long story shory, in Determinism antecedent state X always leads to resultant answer Y, never Z.

Given said determinism, agree. It doesn't mean that decision making is not going on, that choices are not being made. That would be fate, something different than determinism.

In Free Will antecedent state X can lead to resultant answer Y or Z depending on the decision making process which occurred.

There you go. That definition says that there can be no free will given deterministic physics, and it even goes so far as to imply that truly random acts are the only example of free will.

To my understanding your comments make no sense.

Firstly, if antecedent state X ALWAYS leads to resultant state Y, there can't be decision making going on since there are no other choices to choose between, it's always going to be Y. Thus the Determinists are right (decision making is an illusion) in that scenario. "Fate" is just a layman's label for the result they notice without a theory (which Determinists have) as to why.

Second, I am at a loss how you got your bolded conclusion from what I posted (and you quoted). Perhaps you're not getting that in a Free Will universe, Deterministic physics doesn't fully account for animal decision making, that is in addition to physics, there's a process called... you guessed it... Free Will (randomness not required).

This makes it sound like 'pondering' and 'physical and electrical state of the brain' are necessarily mutually exclusive, sort of like 'computing' and 'transistor switching' are similarly exclusive, instead of one consisting of the other.

Just to be clear, the ANTECEDENT brain state is what I describe as the physical and electrical state of the brain. While pondering occurs (obviously) DURING decision making (assuming there is, in fact decision making). Thus they are different entities, but are not mutually exclusive.

Long story short, in Determinism antecedent state X always leads to resultant answer Y, never Z. In Free Will antecedent state X can lead to resultant answer Y or Z depending on the decision making process which occurred.

Determinists state that decisions are an illusion (in favor of antecedent brain states instead). I happen to believe that while brain states can and do INFLUENCE decision making, that there is another factor beyond brain states that participate in TRUE decision making (just as we internally perceive every day). You can label this factor Free Will, or pondering or thinking or true decision making. It doesn't matter what you call it.

Thus if you walk up to an ice cream cone counter and have to choose a flavor, Determinism says that your brain state will Determine which flavor you will "choose" though that choice is an illusion, you were always going to "choose" vanilla because you were in a vanilla brain state when you walked up. All of the pondering you perceive in your thoughts did not determine vanilla, it was just window dressing before the Determined conclusion of vanilla was voiced.

I believe that the pondering we all perceive in our minds in fact do play a role (perhaps a smaller role than we assume) in the final outcome, such that if we had a different internal conversation on the various pros and cons of vanilla, we may have chosen chocolate, even with the identical antecedent brain state.

Well part of the problem is that Free Will is purported to explain animal decision making only (not simple physical systems), thus terms like "non-deterministic world" implies that somehow nothing causes anything.

As to what a Free Will world looks like, it looks like our world. Remember it is Determinism that tells us that what we perceive as decision making every single day is, in fact an illusion and that in reality "decisions" are not the product of pondering, rather are determined by the physical and electrical state of the brain before the supposed "decision" is made.

The problem with statistics, especially about "race" is that folks tend to accept and repeat stats that support their worldview and downplay or ignore those that challenge their worldview. Thus it is not only possible, but rather it is routine to be able to promote bias through using (cherry-picked) statistics. Or to put it another way, folks come up with subjective conclusions "supported" by objective data.

Well I don't know why it doesn't work for you, since you neatly summed up my point.

Activist scholarship is dog shit, in my opinion. Woke corporate racism, that Diversity, Equity, Inclusion mantra, flows straight from that rotten core. The Skokal and grievance studies affairs basically prove that they peddle in nonsense.

Sure, the pendulum is swinging off center in that particular direction. But not acknowledging that in the past the pendulum was swung in other directions equally, or more off center that many people labeled "normal" is being somewhere between naive and disingenuous.

Can't be? Not really. Won't be? Sure, lots of them. Basically look at any luxury brand now. They're all "natural", "organic" or "handmade". Just because you can automate a process doesn't mean you will.

CRT, like all theories, is open to legitimate criticism. However any intellectually honest review of it has to acknowledge that at this point both CRT and (especially) it's criticism have been co-opted by folks with political agendas to rile up their bases.

I don't think visual artists are worried much about elephants stealing their jobs or taking over their niche in the aesthetic ecology.

I agree about the worries of individuals, though that is fodder for the Economics Forum.

The concepts I outlined are valid, though (here in the Philosophy Forum).

Art has been created by nonhuman intelligence for decades (if not centuries). Our local zoo has sold art created by elephants for quite some time. In this scenario, the elephant acts as a "tool" of the "artist", who is the human who set up the scenario. No different from the "artist" who sets up the 3D printer or the AI.

Exactly. "Meaning" like "beauty" only makes sense in the context of an observer to grant an entity that quality. Thus there is no inherent meaning (nor beauty) in the absence of an audience.

What say you?

I completely agree with you.

Science and religion do not conflict any more than science and art conflict. Science deals with the physical, religion deals with the metaphysical and art deals with the emotional.

That is they each address different things.

Am I correct in thinking that there’s not a clear line dividing subjective to objective reality of objects if we have tools that allow us to do so ?

I suppose, since we do not possess technology to observe and record emotional responses.

It depends on whether the reality being sought is the objective reality of physical objects or the subjective reality "experienced" within the mind of an organic being.

Real is anything that is contained by reality. In that case you might ask what is reality? which can be subjective or objective, objective in terms of agreed upon consensus or subjective that which is in your private world such as a certain emotion.

I get the concept you're trying to communicate, but the wording you're using makes it potentially confusing at best and inaccurate at worst.

Namely, IMO it is more accurate to label the product of our perceptions as "perceptions" than "reality". Our perceptions could be reality itself, it could be our version of "reality" (which would likely not be true reality), OTOH the perceptions collected by a camera are free from human biases and psychological influences. Could video recordings of human events be "reality"? Well, at best they are external recordings of reality.

Well I too am in agreement with improvement in childrearing, though I look at how to get there a little differently. In my experience, prospective parents, or to label it more accurately: folks having sex without Birth Control, generally fall into three groups. Those who will be acceptable to excellent parents, those with good motivation but poor skills and/or habits who will benefit from instruction and/or support and those with no or reverse motivation who account for the vast majority of the really egregious problems. I'm not convinced instruction will benefit most in the third group, rather IMO subsidized access to effective Birth Control and the removal of societal messaging that parenthood is expected would be a more effective strategy.

So what is your point? I am against the extreme regulation of drugs. But there must be at least some regulation, as your pilot example shows (although weakly, as it seems at least as much a regulation of pilots as drugs).

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I'm perfectly happy with the legal status of drugs where I live.

Prohibition is merely the most extreme example of regulation.

Are you okay with the pilot of your plane or your surgeon taking recreational drugs at work?

Assuming you are not, then you agree with society (through the government) regulating the consumption of recreational drugs. At this point it's just a question of what sort of regulations a particular jurisdiction should enact, not whether there should be regulations.

For me the most convincing argument I suppose you could call it, is intelligent design combined with aesthetics. Why is our vision hard wired to like beauty ? Is it universal?

Yes, that has been a popular "argument" since antiquity: "I don't understand physically how this or that came to be, must have been a metaphysical entity". Obviously in ancient times just about everything observable was capable of being part of this narrative. Now since the advent of science, it is a much smaller (and shrinking) subset.

The majority believe so, yes.

The concept of relative risk is poorly appreciated by the lay public. As if there is a risk-free option.

Well according to some interpretations of Hume, it no longer exists, until it can be observed by a human to given it existance.

Commenting on the "meaning" of life without describing from whose perspective the meaning would be given is only a half asked question. In other words it is unanswerable as asked. It just begets another question.

Exactly. The common understanding (in cases when there is one) typically has at least experiential if not evidentiary data to back it up. Proposing an alternative requires "proof" to counter the common understanding.

That’s true. But we could trust ourselves, our families, our friends, our communities, without seeking the blessing from some distant authority. We could fully and easily reject corporations and powerful individuals, especially if there were no state mechanisms with which they could achieve monopoly, subsidy, contracts, and power.

Which would work in the pre-industrial era. But society benefits from large public works projects that small groups of families or even neighborhoods don't have the resources can finance. Thus the role for a "distant authority".

Let me give you an example and let me know your take on it. Let's say there's just me and a little kid at a pool (and I don't know this kid)(no lifeguards: nothing other than us two). I am dangling my feet in the water and the kid starts drowning in the deep end. I am the only one around that could save this little kid, but I don't want to risk getting an ear infection and since this matter (i.e., the potential ear infection) pertains to my body I think that I have the right to not consent to saving this kid.

Do you think I have the right, in that scenario, to not consent to saving the kid? I don't think I do, because consent doesn't matter in the instance that one could save someone else's life without any foreseeably significant unwanted bodily modifications.

Here's another example I would like your take on. Imagine I go out and stab an innocent person in both of their kidneys. The cops show up, arrest me, and the victim gets sent to the ER. Turns out, I am the only one with the right kidneys to save them (viz., there are no donors available that would match, etc.): do I have the right, as the egregious perpetrator, to keep my kidneys if I do not consent to giving them to the victim?

I don't think so: what do you think

Cute. Even if your name wasn't Bob, I'd know you were a guy. Ear infection, eh?

If you want an analogy, let's give an analogy. Let's say if you jump in the pool you'll get mystery disease X. Folks who get mystery disease X have a 1.4% chance of "serious morbidity", a 32 per 100,000 chance of dying and about a 33% chance of needing major surgery.

Next: "Generally speaking, there is legally no duty to rescue another person.

The courts have gone into very gory details in order to explain this. In Buch v. Amory Manufacturing Co., the defendant had no obligation to save a child from crushing his hand in a manufacturing machine. The court suggested an analogy in which a baby was on the train tracks – did a person standing idly by have the obligation to save him? Legally, no. He was a “ruthless savage and a moral monster,” but legally he did not have to save that baby"

However, mystery disease X stats are on average. There are some folks who get it who have a 25% chance of dying. Any thoughts about judging those who don't jump into the pool?

Another thing: I can tell you that the kidney stabber convict situation is well established in the Medical Ethics field and it is quite clear the stabber cannot be coerced into donation of a kidney.

Lastly your commentary is missing another angle in the abortion situation and that is society and the courts give very broad powers to parents to manage the healthcare of their minor children. Thus it stands to reason that it should grant even broader powers to those governing potential children (who are not minor children).

In such a case it is ultimately her choice.

My responsibility comes beforehand, making sure we both share the same moral outlook.

So to be clear, when just hooking up (specifically NOT seeking to have a child) thus using Birth Control, you do or don't bother aligning morals beforehand?

I would make sure that whomever I am having a child with share the same moral views.

I understand, but what about someone you had no intention of having children with? Someone with whom you were using Birth Control with, just for hooking up purposes?

If you like government so much, maybe you’d like Somalia better when they had one. It had all the regular stuff: totalitarianism, corruption, political oppression, and of course they turned their weapons on their own citizens and committed genocide. I guess they got their tax dollar’s worth.

Part of the problem with criticizing "government" without providing an alternative is it leaves one open to the assumption that one trusts corporations and/or powerful individuals to act fairly or even charitably towards the public, which is, of course naive in the extreme.

You know who made it that way, bubba?

Well son, historically the British and Italians colonized what is now Somalia, so have to take the lion's share of the blame. As to it's modern history, it kind of started with it's internal warring factions back in the 60s.

Hey, the fact that some nations are worse than us, doesn't mean that our system works perfectly.

Ha ha. First, Somalia isn't merely "worse than us", it's total chaos. Why? Specifically because of a lack of government. As to working perfectly, that's a fake goal. No one claims it does, or reasonably should.

This is a good point that I had not thought about before; however, you aren’t going to like my refurbishment (of my view) here (;

I would say that you are right insofar as I cannot say that the obligation to not abort (in the case of consensual sex) is contingent in any manner on ‘reasonably anticipated’ consequences of ones actions. For example, if this were true (that I could make them contingent), then I should never go driving, because there is a small percentage chance, even with taking all the precautions, that I could injure someone in a manner that would be my fault. Likewise, there is a small percentage chance that people having sex while taking every precautionary measures (like contraceptives) will conceive.

My resolution is to say that the obligation to sustain that life (of which their condition one is culpable for) is contingent solely on one’s culpability and not ‘reasonable inferences’ pertaining to the consequences of ones actions. Thusly, in the case of driving, I am accepting that there is a chance that I may be at fault for another person’s injuries (due to, let’s say, a car crash or something) and, in that event, I cannot appeal to the fact that I took a lot of precautionary measures to prevent injuring people with my care to get out of the obligation to help this person that I am, in fact, culpable for their injuries. Same thing is true, I would say, for consensual sex: appealing to all of the precautionary measures they took to prevent conception does not exempt them from their obligation to sustain that new life, since they are culpable for it.

Curious that you never considered the single most common type of sexual encounter between heterosexual partners (consensual while using BC).

As to your reconfiguring your opinion/theory, in typical modern fashion, the intended conclusion is maintained while adjusting for inconvenient new data by fiddling around with the argument to keep it all "consistent".

Lastly, in your car wreck injury example most agree that "taking responsibility" for causing the accident takes the form of helping the victim. Just so you know, there is not a consensus (despite your assertion) that "taking responsibility" for an unintended pregnancy should solely be in the form of carrying it to term.

Hey if you don't like government, check out Somalia. Let us know what you think about it.

Oh not much except for food that's safer to eat, a top notch education system, medications that have research to show they work, clean drinking water, cleaner air to breathe, National and State parks and other recreation areas, I don't have to speak German or Russian (DoD reference), a financial system that has pretty much made for a great retirement, a top notch medical system, the internet, GPS, I can go on but you may have nodded off.

How much have you payed for the Department of defense and have you gotten your money’s worth? I wager you have no clue what you’re paying for or where your money goes, whether to the fire department or into right into a politician’s pocket.

Yeah the 'ol won't/can't answer questions, so throw out random ones of your own. I have to admit I used to do stuff like that a long time ago.

As to your queries: I don't know and I (pretty much) don't care or worry about it. I have received a huge amount from my tax dollar, even though I am paying more total taxes than the vast majority.