:up:

Nice additions. I'd like to give your post the attention it deserves. That's my intent...

Manana!

It's worth mentioning here that I reject many an historical dichotomy when it comes to the ontological basis for my position; they're found sorely lacking in their ability to take proper account of that which consists of both and is thus neither one nor the other. Thought and belief are such things. Belief content matters. The inadequate dichotomies include subject/object, physical/nonphysical, material/immaterial, internal/external, objective/subjective, linguistic/nonlinguistic.

Convention has been employing these for centuries. If they were capable of taking adequate account of thought and belief, they would have done a better job by now.

Does it matter if we include some non-artifactual objects in the list of things that are existentially dependent upon language? I don't think so. We can add sand dunes and the like without changing your schema. — J

Not according to the position I argue for/from.

On my view, sand dunes are not existentially dependent upon language. "Sand dunes" is. Sand dunes are not equivalent to "sand dunes".

That which is existentially dependent upon language cannot exist prior to language. Sand dunes existed in their entirety prior to language use. "Sand dunes" did not. Sand dunes consist of grains of sand. "Sand dunes" does not. "Sand dunes" consists of meaningful marks. Sand dunes do not. You can find "sand dunes" in some books/literature. You cannot find a sand dune in any book.

"Sand dunes" is existentially dependent upon language use. Sand dunes are not.

The human intention to see it as a dune -- because we have uses for which the term "sand dune" is needed -- can't be ignored. — J

If I may...

In the above quote, does the term "it" refer to a sand dune? I think it must, because we do not see the term "sand dune" as a dune.

Substitution results in the following:

"The human intention to see a sand dune as a dune --- because we have uses for which the term "sand dune" is needed --- can't be ignored"

While the manner of speaking/writing I'm critiquing seems innocuous to many. I do not find a need for it. I'd rather not equivocate the term "see", because our visual capacity plays an integral role in the formation of thought and belief. Some content of thought are things we see. This holds good regardless of whether or not we've developing naming and descriptive practices about those things.

We use language(naming and descriptive practices) to talk about, learn about, and think about sand dunes, including knowing what "sand dunes" picks out of this world. <-----On my view that's much better than 'seeing sand dunes as dunes'. We use our eyes to see sand dunes - before and after - naming and describing them.

That's the point I want to return to. How does the question of whether a belief concerns a) something that is existentially dependent on language, or b) something that is not so dependent, affect whether a non-linguistic animal can be said to have linguistic beliefs or not? — J

I'm not okay with saying language less animals have linguistic beliefs.

Do you simply mean that we ought to extend the normal meaning of "linguistic belief" so that it can also mean "A belief about something that is existentially dependent on language"?

No, that's not what I mean. I reject the dichotomy for the reasons already explained. In addition, the terms have baggage I'm not willing to carry or explain away as a result of not practicing the normal usage. I find it's much better for me to employ a different framework. As above, I'm not okay with saying that a language less animal is capable of having linguistic belief. I'm okay with saying that language less belief can consist of some things that are existentially dependent upon language(assuming a shared world of course).

Yes, a bit clearer. One thing first, though: Is the reason that "some things are existentially dependent upon language (like mats, tables, cars, etc.)" because those objects are human artifacts? — J

Probably, unless there are human artifacts which are somehow not existentially dependent upon language. It's the existential dependency upon language that matters.

If it's the human-made aspect that makes the difference, how would a language-less animal know about it or be aware of it? — J

They wouldn't, but the language less creatures' awareness(or lack thereof) regarding what their own belief consists of is irrelevant.

I'm a little puzzled about why a mat, e.g., would depend on language for its existence. — J

I suppose I'm claiming that the technology involved in textiles is impossible without shared meaning. I haven't tried to prove it, but I'm okay with that. There may be arguments for it, if need be. I don't see the need, because there's no good reason to doubt it, and I cannot imagine a sound argument against the idea. Of course, I may be mistaken and given that none of us are capable of knowingly believing a falsehood or knowingly holding false belief, it would take another to point it out, should there be a mistake with claiming that textile technology is existentially dependent upon language and mats are existentially dependent upon textile technology.

This notion of existential dependency is not to be confused/conflated with subsistence. It's better understood as initial emergence requirements.

If I make an object but don't give it a name, does it exist in some lesser way? Probably I'm just not seeing what you're getting at. — J

It's not whether or not the candidate under consideration has been named that matters. We name things that are not existentially dependent upon language, and some unnamed things are existentially dependent language.

I was making the case for rejecting the linguistic/nonlinguistic dichotomy as a means for taking account of thought and belief. And now I've just went through a process I tried to avoid earlier by mentioning the rejection. It's a bit disheartening that you say what you said at the end.

Sigh.

Edited to remove a comment that harmed the quality of the discussion.

First of all, I do not talk in terms of "non-linguistic belief" for reasons already explained. — creativesoul

To be fair, the above words are mine, and they're misleading at best, and downright false at worst. I have now explained it, so. My apologies for what's directly above. Brief mentions are not explanations.

Perhaps start with "non-linguistic belief"? That's the one I find most puzzling.

I have no burden regarding that terminological use. You first invoked it. I rejected it.
— creativesoul

But you said:

I reject the idea that language less animals' belief(s) have propositional content.
— creativesoul

So if a language-less animal has a belief -- moreover, a belief without propositional content -- isn't it by definition a non-linguistic belief? I'm confused. — J

The confusion is understandable. The position I argue for/from is quite unusual/unconventional in some ways and includes subtle details that are crucial for understanding.

To the question: What counts as "by definition" depends upon taxonomy/terminological framework. As we both know, this particular subject matter, is extremely nuanced(theory laden).

If there is such a thing as language less thought and/or belief, and evolutionary theory is given a modicum of credence/applicability here, then it only follows that we're attempting to set out/discover/understand that which existed in its entirety(in some form or another) prior to our accounting practices. Thus, our definitions thereof are quite capable of being wrong, particularly regarding the elemental constituents therein/thereof.

On my view, if a language less creature has a thought and/or belief, then that thought and/or belief is - by definition - language less belief, i.e. the thought and/or belief of a language less creature. One aspect of such belief is that they cannot include language use as part of their content. That is one of the defining features. In other words, and circling back to what I've been setting out, language less belief are correlations drawn between different things, but language use is never one of the things(or "stuff") the creature draws correlations between.

However, and this is the subtlety, because language less belief can include(consist of) some things that are existentially dependent upon language(like mats, tables, cars, etc.) and all things that are existentially dependent upon language could sensibly/rightly be called "linguistic" things, the linguistic/nonlinguistic dichotomy is found sorely lacking in its ability to further draw and maintain the distinction between the belief of language users and the belief of language less creatures, particularly when it comes to the content of those.

When we call language less belief "nonlinguistic belief", and then we take further account of the content therein, we will inevitably arrive at the incoherent conclusion that nonlinguistic belief has linguistic content. That serves as ground to reject the dichotomy as a means to draw and maintain the distinction between language users' and language less creatures' thought and/or belief.

That's about as plain as I'm able to put it. Hope that helps.

It sounds to me, if I can say this without giving offense, that you've grown used to your own views in this area (and that happens to us all, of course) and you may not realize how un-obvious they are without further explanation. — J

No offense taken. No worries. I'm very well aware of how unorthodox my views are. I've been working out the kinks for nearly two decades. Further explanation is to be expected. I welcome shouldering any burden they may require. I welcome germane questions about my claims, and any inevitable logical consequences thereof. However, I'm not shouldering any burdens borne of words and claims I've not made.

I'm also quite short on time nowadays. The only reason I've been on here as frequently as I have the past few days was due to being in a state of recovery time limiting my own physical abilities.

It's a topic that interests me, and I'm genuinely curious to see if we can put together a picture of how non-linguistic creatures may or may not engage in a rudimentary form of reasoning.

You, me, and so many more. There's a ton of work necessary to reach that goal. "Thesis worthy" doesn't even begin to appropriately describe the endeavor.

First of all, I do not talk in terms of "non-linguistic belief" for reasons already explained.

But you have re-interrogate each of the terms you're using and try to say exactly what they mean. Perhaps start with "non-linguistic belief"? That's the one I find most puzzling.

I have no burden regarding that terminological use. You first invoked it. I rejected it.

A correlation is a relationship and/or association that is attributed/recognized/inferred/drawn between different things by a creature so capable. In our example, the creature touching the fire associated/correlated their own behaviour(touching the fire) with/to the subsequent pain, hence attributing/recognizing a causal relationship between the behaviour and pain.

Your objections are very much in line with Rödl's concerns. He's a tough read, but Self-Consciousness and Objectivity has a lot to recommend it. There was also a long thread jumping off from his re-evaluation of what a proposition is; I believe it's the thread called "p and 'I think p'". — J

Yeah. I read that thread, and followed it fairly closely. It was an interesting thread.

But you're just re-asserting all this. I'm asking why you believe it's true, and what such thoughts or beliefs consist of, if not words? Does the cat perhaps think in images? Can she believe using images? I'm not trying to be difficult, or imply that there are no good answers to my questions, but we need a lot more clarity on what's being proposed. What is the "stuff" that allows this account to go forward? — J

Interesting reply given the context.

What are you wanting to know? :brow:

Are you looking for an ontological basis or terminological framework upon which to build an 'updated' conception/understanding of thought/belief... human thought/belief notwithstanding?

All thought and belief reduce to correlations drawn between different things.

But at this very moment (or so goes the usual story) there are propositions about all sorts of things, which are either true or false, yet unarticulated. — J

Yup. I'm aware of this dogma. So much the worse for convention. In what sensible way can an unarticulated proposition be said to exist?

What does a proposition consist of?

What does an unarticulated proposition consist of?

the linguistic/nonlinguistic dichotomy is incapable of taking proper account of language less thought and belief, particularly in terms of the content thereof.
— creativesoul

Say more about that? Do you mean, the dichotomy is too rigid?
— J

Sort of. The content of a language less creature's thought and belief can include/consist of stuff that is existentially dependent upon language. — creativesoul

OK, but I still wish I understood what the "stuff" was. — J

A cat can think/believe that a mouse is on the mat. The content of the cat's thought/belief includes the mouse(which is not existentially dependent upon language) and the mat(which is). Both are elemental constituents of the cat's thought/belief. The cat is a language less animal capable of forming thought/belief consisting of elemental constituents that are themselves existentially dependent upon language.

...propositions have the peculiar property of being true or false (for example) regardless of whether anyone asserts them... — J

What does an unarticulated proposition consist of? — creativesoul

Right, that's the question. — J

I would ask that question to anyone claiming that there is such thing as an unarticulated proposition. By my lights, it exposes an emaciated ontological framework.

If propositions are existentially dependent upon language use(being proposed), and language use is existentially dependent upon shared meaning, then it only follows that propositions are existentially dependent upon shared meaning. If the capability of being true/false requires saying something meaningful about the world(which is usually held by such positions), and saying something meaningful about the world is language use, then it only follows that in order for a proposition to be capable of being true or false, they must say something meaningful about the world via language use.

There is no such thing as an unarticulated proposition.

How can I think through a thought without breaking my own structure of thinking or undoing my own reasoning? — GreekSkeptic

Establish and maintain consistency/coherence(lack of self-contradiction).

the linguistic/nonlinguistic dichotomy is incapable of taking proper account of language less thought and belief, particularly in terms of the content thereof.
— creativesoul

Say more about that? Do you mean, the dichotomy is too rigid? — J

Sort of. The content of a language less creature's thought and belief can include/consist of stuff that is existentially dependent upon language.

The theory laden nature of these discussions you mentioned as necessary in the OP is showing up here.

What does an unarticulated proposition consist of?

Given the direction of our discussion, it's worth saying that the linguistic/nonlinguistic dichotomy is incapable of taking proper account of language less thought and belief, particularly in terms of the content thereof.

Propositions are existentially dependent upon language. Where there has never been language, there could have never been propositions. I'm not sure if I rightly understand what the W3 sense is.

Can you say more about what that would be, phenomenologically? — J

I reject phenomenology.

What is a conclusion that is not put into words? — J

In this example, the creature recognizes/attributes causality; recognizes and/or attributes a causal relationship between their own behaviour and the subsequent pain. — creativesoul

On my view, thought and/or belief cannot be reduced in/to purely physical terms or mental terms. That is because thought and belief consist in part of both and are thus not properly accounted for by either a purely physical or a purely 'mental'(non-physical) framework.

Feeling pain after touching fire causes an animal to infer/conclude that touching fire caused the pain
— creativesoul

But if we agree that this does not occur in the space of propositions, then what do you mean by "infer" or "conclude"? What is a nonlinguistic conclusion?

That's the problem I want to home in on. — J

A non-linguistic inference/conclusion is one that is arrived at via a language less creature. In this example, the creature recognizes/attributes causality; recognizes and/or attributes a causal relationship between their own behaviour and the subsequent pain.

↪creativesoul I'd like to understand this thought better. I think you're saying that I can have a belief without also having a propositional expression or equivalent of that belief? Thus, a non-linguistic animal can form a belief about, say, pain and fire, without entertaining any propositions about it? — J

The summary above points towards the general thrust. Not all belief is propositional in content.

If I've got that right, I don't think it's tangential at all. It raises the extremely interesting question of what to do with beliefs, in the taxonomy of Worlds 2 and 3. If we're going to use causal language, as I'm suggesting we might do, what causes a bear to believe that fire will cause pain, and how does that belief in turn cause whatever mental process results in the bear's steering clear of smoke? Is all this happening in the world of psychological events, local to the bear, and explainable in terms of brain processes? Or is there a shadow, so to speak, of propositional content, such that the bear might be said to conclude that smoke is to be avoided?

I think we can get some insight by consulting our own mental behavior when beliefs arise, but I'll stop here. — J

There's a lot packed up in there. The taxonomy of beliefs is an interesting subject matter, to me, all by itself. I reject the idea that language less animals' belief(s) have propositional content.

Feeling pain after touching fire causes an animal to infer/conclude that touching fire caused the pain, which in turn forms the belief that touching fire causes pain. That belief will then affect thoughts and effect behaviors, causing the animal to avoid fire.

entailment are 'logical rules', which could only be said to 'cause'(scarequotes intentional) someone to infer certain conclusions, if they know and follow the rules.
— creativesoul

Sure. "Knowing the rules" is a background condition, just like "all things being equal at room temperature and normal gravity etc." is a background condition for many statements of physical causation. My questions was/is, Given that the mind in question does know the rules, do they actually have a choice about following them? — J

My own objections to Gettier's Case I and II, as well as the cottage industry cases, serve as prima facie evidence that one can know the rules and not follow them.

Did I have a choice in the matter? I don't think so.

There is a large number of bright interesting people here.

I apologize for any inconvenience or distraction, my friend. I just wondered if Russell's approach was applicable to the issue I raised regarding what happens in Gettier's by following the rules of entailment. To my mind, that is the very reason that it seems so counterintuitive to nearly everyone who first encounters the paper(the undisclosed change in meaning/truth conditions). That is the sleight of hand Gettier had gotten away with, by following the rules nonetheless.

If you wish to return to what you were working on before I entered, please do! I was just stopping in to see if the new approach by Russell was applicable to what I've hinted at here.

So for the purposes of any extensional model we might use, the two propositions do meant the same thing. — Banno

And yet, the two have very different truth conditions Banno. "The man with ten coins in his pocket will get the job" is true regardless of which man gets the job, so long as he has ten coins in his pocket. Whereas, "Jones will get the job and has ten coins in his pocket" is true, if and only if, Jones gets the job and has ten coins in his pocket.

A change in truth conditions is a change in meaning.

Awww. I'm sorry.

I had it backwards(again), but corrected it while you were replying. I suppose it's hard for me to accept that Smith would count the coins in Jones' pocket! :lol: Anyway...

I made a point to mention the lack of need for a language speaker because it seemed germane to the commonly held belief that propositions are equivalent to belief. That point's probably too tangential, but it's true and has a very broad scope of far-reaching consequences which place many a common understanding and/or position under overwhelming direct scrutiny.

I would hesitate at that. I'm not a huge fan of the so called 'logical rules of entailment', because they do not preserve truth(as a result of allowing a change in meaning).

Setting that aside, and addressing the question above directly, entailment are 'logical rules', which could only be said to 'cause'(scarequotes intentional) someone to infer certain conclusions, if they know and follow the rules. I think that's what you're getting at.

Gettier comes to mind. Funny, I'm also discussing the paper with Banno in his Russell thread.

I don't have much time nowadays, which is good, but what I had in mind fit into the truth as satisfaction aspect as well as being germane to issues with entailment. In the first case Gettier invokes the rules of entailment to move from d to e.

from the paper...

Case I:

Suppose that Smith and Jones have applied for a certain job. And suppose that Smith has strong evidence for the following conjunctive proposition : (d) Jones is the man who will get the job, and Jones has ten coins in his pocket. Smith's evidence for (d) might be that the president of the company assured him that Jones would in the end be selected, and that he, Smith, had counted the coins in Jones's pocket ten minutes ago.

Proposition (d) entails : (e) The man who will get the job has ten coins in his pocket.

Let us suppose that Smith sees the entailment from (d) to (e), and accepts (e) on the grounds of (d), for which he has strong evidence. In this case, Smith is clearly justified in believing that (e) is true.

The satisfaction issue, it seems to me, is that those two conjunctive propositions do not mean the same thing. That is obvious because they have different truth conditions. Does Russell's approach find itself capable of addressing that?

If I had an unmet expectation -- or wish, really! -- it was that somehow we'd come up with a plausible explanation of the unpopular view that inferential reasoning is in fact causative. — J

What are your thoughts? — J

When a young child touches fire, they immediately infer that touching the fire is what caused the pain. The effect/affect is that they form the belief that touching fire causes pain. They are right. That can all be done by a languageless human.

I merely asked a question. You did the shewing. :wink:

Hi J. The topic has been one of historical interest for myself. Has the thread met your expectations, assuming you had any?

Seems that it may be the case that causal language isn't equipped for describing the evolution of thought. The very notion of "thought" is problematic in many ways. In layman's terms, sure it is beyond doubt that thoughts can cause other thoughts.

Hi Banno! Hope you are doing well. So, I'm wondering if this new critique of entailment could be applied to Gettier's two cases? That may be different or somehow opposed to your purposes/intent here, but if it's not, could you set it out? Case I in particular.

Second, we should take a good hard look at any philosophy that demands an appearances versus reality distinction but then denies access to reality. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Yes. Kant's problem as well.

...a listing or summary of a bunch of smart guys’ ideas is not the same as insight. That requires a connection between things that are not normally thought of as connected. — T Clark

Yes. Insight results from thinking, which AI is incapable of doing. Noam Chomsky called the LLM's glorified plagiarism. I agree.

Well put.

A lot of people are very unhappy with/in Trump's 'kingdom'.

The road to Trump has been paved over long periods of time. American political corruption has been laid bare by Trump. We've had the best government money can buy for a very long time. Citizens United legalized bribery. Trump came after. Trump bragged about buying every republican candidate on the stage during an early Republican primary debate leading up to the 2016 Republican national convention. An uncontested/unopposed open public admission of bribery. Mind you, there was one candidate, of at least 8, who jokingly spoke up to the contrary...

...stating that, although he had not yet...

...he would be more than happy to accept some of his money, if Trump wanted to give him some.

Under the rug it went...




Some have been hoping for better than a half century for America's socioeconomic influence to wane. Some have that aim/goal. The motivations are varied. They are plentiful and often incommensurate due to the wide variance of both, the individual and the subjective particular circumstance(s) grounding their desires. Be all that as it may, certain facts are clear enough to be able to form some general true assessments.

Trump has personally befriended those who actively work against American best interest. He has publicly dismissed American intelligence services' opinion(s) in favor of foreign actors' concerning charges directly involving that actor. <-----Read that very carefully. Trump is turning/has turned toward adversaries and away from American intelligence and longtime allies.

Others are perfectly content with the kingdom of Trump.