Yes, it probably says so much about Western culture and the nature of consumerism and shallowness. It all comes down to money and images for so many, to where it turns the initial ideas of esotericide upside down and inside out. It probably links with what Alice Bailey wrote as the problem of glamour.

It is not even just ideas of spirituality but the whole culture around the arts as well, including the industry around Van Gogh and Kurt Cobain, which is about the seductive images as commodities. It is so different from the 'hidden' experiences of the genuine pursuit. Many of the genuine seekers may be hidden in corners of libraries and in various isolated places. Even with the popular genres of mind, body and spirit and mindfulness in pop psychology it may mean that, in many ways, the esoteric will always remain esoteric, as 'rejected knowledge'.

Some people do seem to seek for 'enlightenment' or even the bliss of 'Nirvana' as an end. From my perspective, this is a rather narrow perspective because it shortcircuits the processes which may be as essential in learning, just as much as the moment of enlightenment. What is known as 'The Dweller on the Threshold', to quote a Van Morrison track, may be important and the understanding of suffering. Without the initial sense of sufferings the quest of the Buddha would not have the significance which it has.

The idea of initiation does seem essential to many forms of esoteric thinking, including both secret societies, like the Freemasons, as well as theosophy. The tradition which I am most familiar with is theosophy, especially the ideas of Blavatsky and Alice Bailey. These were also developed in a different direction by Benjamin Creme.

I spent some time reading Creme's writings, which were also about initiation through personal evolution through many lives. He also spoke of the coming of Maitreya, who was supposed to 'emerge' from the East End of London until Creme died in the middle of the last decade. Creme took many ideas literally, including the belief in a hierarchy of invisible Masters.

I did consider his literal perspective, but do wonder if a more symbolic interpretation is more useful, such as Rudolf Steiner's, idea of the cosmic Christ, rather than Maitreya as a specific person. However, I have attended transmission meditation workshops by Share international, the group founded by Creme and have found it the most helpful of all meditation practices. One idea, which I found interesting too was Creme's controversial suggestion that Jesus was only the Christ during his ministry, and he also saw parallels between Jesus as Christ and the Buddha. I believe that the Theosophical Society rejected the ideas of Creme but Share international continues on after Creme's death.

The idea of known unknowns from Socrates to Wittgenstein may be seen as a form of mysticism. The danger of 'woo' may be more connected with concrete thinking, especially in organised religious movements. For example, the esoteric tradition of Gnosticism looked at a more symbolic way of thinking than taught within mainstream Christian thinking.

The whole area of metaphorical thinking is so wide and expansive, as is speculation. It may be why some people are put off philosophy entirely. I have come across a few people who began studying philosophy and changed courses because they preferred facts. Of course, it may not come down to the esoteric, or hidden; because the outer aspects of 'reality' and life dramas are important. It may be about different layers of meaning and interpretation in thinking.

Metaphorical thinking may be such an important aspect of human thinking, especially in the use of language, with limits of logic in the scope of rational thinking. Images may colour so much of the scope and spectrum for imaginative thinking, drawing upon sensory experiences as opposed to the mere apparatus of logic..

I wonder to what extent ideas of the esoteric and exoteric are 'different'; such as in ideas of rebirth and resurrection of the dead. In particular, in ideas of rebirth, reincarnation and resurrection, it come down from to which parts of one's 'self' may continue in some other form. It involves an aspect of the esoteric, in the depths of what it means to be human, but, also, most likely in the outer representations, bodily and psychologically dramas arising in human life social life.

The whole area of myth, as stories unfolding in human life, is extremely important. Each person is living out mythic aspects of dramas, as as contributing to an ongoing understanding or such dramas as appreciated and developed in the arts.

As regards to the 'mystification' of ideas, an important area may have trying to bring mythos and logos together in a compatible way.

My understanding is the way in which ideas may come into play would be in the archetypal aspects of life, including the interplay between life and death, and symbolic dramas, involving the conundrums of light and dark gender opposites and the whole interplay of dualities and symbolic or mythical aspects which arise in human existence and experience.

The ideas of David Hume and Hume's fork may be important for making rational sense of what may appear to be irrational. The idea of the exoteric and the esoteric are also important in thinking of causal explanations and ideas of meaning. The bridge between both aspects may be important, as well as the way in.which esoteric meaning may be involved subjective meaning, such as in.the understanding of dreams.

I am interested to read that Graham Hancock is a friend of yours, as I have read several books by him I have found them to be a rather different perspective of the origins of human civilisation. I am open to such perspectives and the biggest stumbling block of taking such ideas on board may be the 'scientific' premises of evidence-based research.

The idea of the esoteric, secrets and the hidden may be problematic, especially as it involves the mysterious and the unknown. In general, the unveiling of 'the unknown, may be more helpful as opposed to it remaining unknown. The idea of 'the hidden' in philosophy may be problematic, as if trying to go beyond 'gaps', but it may end up with obscurity rather than any meaningful explanabtions. In this way, the ideas of the esoteric may involve more of a demystification rather than clarification of ideas and understanding.

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Metaphorical thinking may sometimes be dismissed at the cost of deeper understanding. Some may see the basics of logic as the most encompassing understanding, but it may lead to its questioning, and what are its limitations?

Just as an addition to.this area, I would say that it is worth questioning whether the idea of the idea of the esoteric implies a supernatural dimension or not? What are the central aspects of hidden knowledge and potential.'secret' aspects, including the political? To what extent does such areas of thought come down to the interplay of religious norms and the widest aspects of philosophy questioning of the nature of life and its conundrums?

In raising this topic, I am also wishing to raise the questionable area of what may be regarded as esoteric as opposed to mainstream. It may come down to what is popular or about politics, especially as the idea of the 'esoteric' implies a hidden, 'underground' or subversive approach or questioning of the ideas of the status quo, or mainstream, conventional commonplace thinking or radical.alternative perspectives.

@Wayfarer[/quote]

The one aspect which I wonder about so much is going beyond the idea of theism and atheism, and how this may stand in perspectives of reality. I came across this idea In the thinking of philosophy of thinking, and its freedom to thinking. There may be various ideas and ways of thinking, especially in terms of negative and positive ways of thinking..

So, in terms of this thread question, I am looking at both the ideas of optimisation and practical aspects of life.So much my comd down to adversity, and this battle against adversity and conflict may e so strong. It may come down to the nature of battling onwards. philosophically and down to.the basis of philosophical thinking.

Genarally, I see the area if you ideas of philosophy of hops and despair as an ongoing area of thinking.'about life and its dilemmas. I am.unsure but open to ideas which may go beyond the basic ideas and ideals of such possibilities. Its logistics how such ideas may be played out I'm the scenarios of life.


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Agnostic atheism may he a means of labelling uncertainty or a,wider spectrum of being open to varying forms of understanding, based on reading and thinking of philosophy..My concern is that-agnostic atheism' dow not become a 'box', cut off from many varied ways of thinking about philosophy and human life..

The issue of human essence is particularly complicated, including the ideas of Simome de Beauvoir. Here, the nature of biology and ideas of the 'second sex' may come into play, as well.as her understanding of the ideas of Sartre, as her partner, may come into play.

These aspects of human essence and meaning may be of particular significance in the understanding of the nature of human meaning, in
its varied forms of philosophy.

The 'blind spot ' of science may come down to the means and reliability of scientific measurement. So much may come into play of the role of participant observer bias and meanings. The blind spot itself may be a gulf of void of unknowing, and it may in itself be an area for expansion of idea of possibilities in the development of ideas. The blimspots of vision and philosophical visio may be dismissed or attuned to, in the scope of understanding of perception.and its significance.
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I wonder to what extent if God does not exist, if as Dosteovosky asks, whether everything is permitted? So, I am left wondering about the limits and freedoms arising from both theism and atheism. How do you see both perspectives in thinking?

I am a bit perplexed about how the idea of automobiles may be seen in terms of philosophy. In some ways, it may be about practical ends, even with those who are unable to drive, for possible medical reasons, being seen as 'dysfunctional.'. I rely on public transport and walking. So, the worst possibility which I used in philosophy is of those who are not able to drive, for medical and other reasons, being discriminated against in a harsh way.

I travel on busses and am not sure how your philosophy adds up to such possibilities. One aspect which may be significant is the ecological aspects, and public as opposed to private transport may be important here..

Nevertheless, there are so many aspects of personal and public aspects of travel and transport, making it such an area of ethical concern, witn no simplistic conclusions. So, thinking about automobiles may involve juggling so much about life and travel in the material world and its consequent philosophy.

Having written this thread, thinking about theism.and atheism, I am also left wondering about the differences in terms of mortality and immortality. It is complex, however, because some ideas of atheism are compatible in atheistic reductionism, especially the idea of life after death as being meaningful nonsense.

However, that in itself is open to question, especially how the experiences of a person fit into the larger aspects of eternity. So, I would ask how does an underlying assumption of theism ot atheism result in an underlying philosophy viewpoint for living, including ethics, and a wider understanding of the purpose and ends of human life?



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In thinking of human essence, I am wondering about how does this comes down to the raw essentials,especially biology? The debate between nature and nurture may be important here. In particular, ons aspect for thinking about may be the extent to which 'human nature' exists as an underlying 'esssence', underlying history and the nature of human action. It is related to.to question of human nature, and how it is fixed or subject to change in relation to historical and social aspects of change.

I wonder about the automobile as an actual object or a symbolic one. I have never driven a car and am not sure that my eyesight or concentration would be up to it. So, I do feel that the automobile is seen as essential to life, such as the demand for driving licenses, and as a symbol of human functioning. In particular, I don't drive an automobile, and wonder to what extent this means that I am a 'failure', or something else, especially in challenging the norms of driving, and environmental concerns.

Thanks for your reply and I am not sure what I am generating. The idea of 'what is spirit' may be important here, especially in the question as to whether 'spirit' is 'real' at all. The concept of spirit may be seen as vague, but it may also go beyond some restrictive ideas, especially of human consciousness and its dismissal as being an illusion in itself, such as the idea of consciousness as an illusion in the thinking of Daniel Dennett.

I am not sure if the debate between theism and atheism stands, especially in the debate between materialism and idealism. In many respects, physicalism is the accepted norm of philosophical thinking. This is an area for discussion in itself. However, in this thread discussion, what I am asking is about materialism as being compatible with atheism, or idealism with a belief in some kind of 'spiritual reality'?

I am not sure to what extent are these ideas in the human mind, or something beyond? I also wonder about the idea of non-dualism, as a way of going beyond materialism and idealism. This area of debate may range from the ideas of ancient philosophers to the present perspectives of neuroscience. So, if my thread question is seen as having any philosophical significance, it is about how human consciousness may be seen, with or without any form of ''God', gods or goddesses, and how may this be understood?

Does the stripping back of ideas, and ideals, especially in terms of the philosophy of realism lead to the most objective understanding of the existential conundrums of human existence? Where does materialism, idealism or philosophies of non dualism lead in the search to put such ideas together in the most synthetic and meaningful ways?

The idea of nihilism and the idea of 'the dark night of the soul', by writers, such as Thomas More, are an interesting area of comparison and contrast. The nihilistic position, which could be seen as stemming from some of the existentialist thinkers, is often based on an idea of loss of belief in God, although Dostoevsky and Kierkegaaard may be exceptions here.

Ideas of the 'dark night of the soul' are more based on the idea of transmutation of despair, and do not rely specifically on the existence of a deity. It may come down to whether all is seen as random chaos or, whether it is possible to see intention and underlying ordering in the processes of life and, any potential power to choose one's destiny.

The loss of hope and autonomy are likely to be connected to a sense of being a mere part in a machine-like system. This brings a political edge to the issue of despair and optimism and social control. This may be especially trud in compliance with war. Recently, I have seen various news posts in which it is suggested that UK citizens may be expected to fight if there is war between Britain and Russia.

There are so many aspects of life which involve conformity and compliance. The senses may be dulled through chemicals and the philosophy of materialism itself may lead to a loss of a belief in free will, and thereby, a sense of loss of hope to use reflective consciousness.

As discussed in previous threads, the philosophy of pessimism, optimism, fear, blind faith or hope and existential aspects of courage are a spectrum of thinking perspectives.

What may be most important is finding balance. In the last few weeks, I did reach states of despair, mainly because I was afraid of losing my current accommodation. I have always seen homelessness and blindness as being the worst of possibilities, although I am sure that many people have developed strength in the face of such adversities.

Having just come out of a 'black hole' state, I see preparing for the worst, in terms of realism, but seeking the best, to be important in an attitude of thinking. I am also hoping that I have learned through my recent encounter with despair. The experience of despair may lead to sharp nudges sufficient to increase self awareness and about the nature of existence itself.

It is interesting to think about the extent to which thinkers, especially the existentialists were concerned with the emotions of depression. Nietzsche certainly was troubled in his mental health.

The nature of depression and despair overlap but are a little different as well. Some of it may come down to cultural assumptions and choice of language. In the context of mental health, which is my work background, the terms depression and suicidal are common. Depression is spoken of so much and GPs prescribe antidepressants routinely. Suicidal thoughts and suicide risk are spoken of so much but despair rarely. I have not come across anyone diagnosed with clinical despair, only clinical depression.

Nevertheless, a state of feeling and thinking about hopelessness does exist and it may not involve actual suicide or other features of depression, such as inability to function. In that way, depression and despair point to a whole spectrum of mental states and an yaccompanying philosophy of life, including nihilism or the transpersonal thinkers ideas of the 'dark night' as a means of transformation.

Yes, rumination can be extremely problematic. There may be different sources of a philosophy of despair. In some respects, a philosophy of despair of the angry young men can be narcissistic, and revolve around image. I don't think that I am coming from this perspective currently, but may have done so at some stages in the past.

My own experience of despair is mostly bound up with difficulties in meeting real life goals. It is hard to know to what extent thinking or other approaches work. To some extent, cognitive behavioral therapy approaches involve trying to find more helpful ways of thinking. The negative self talk can be worked with and the parallels between CBT and a philosophy of Stoicism are strong. However, rational thinking alone may be not enough to work with the emotional aspects of despair. Intuition and involvement of both the right and left side of the brain may be needed for a healing state of consciousness.

I believe that Jung once said something to the effect of 'I live in my deepest hell and from that, I can fall no further'. Here, Jung may have been speaking of embracing despair rather than suppressing or repressing it. In that way, living with despair and even the harshest memories or inner'voices' may be about embracing the darkness.

Even though I see despair in itself as negative I am inclined to wonder if it part of the journeying to higher states of consciousness. Of course, it may not be simple, but it may be that the learning curve, including experiences of being a 'failure', may lead to greater wisdom and understanding, if navigated well, as in the process of individuation.

I wonder if despair is a result of decline because when everything is going so well it may not occur to one to feel despair, The nature of despair may come in the aftermath of high expectations and goals and being disappointed. It is hard to know whether the initial hope was the problem in the first instance. In that respect, it is hard to know if false hope was the problem or the sense of being defeated leading to the feeling and thoughts of being at a deadend.

It is true 'that you cannot lose what you never had' and it is possible that some aspects of life are not appreciated until you lose them. For example, when I had a job I used to moan about getting up early in the morning. Now, that I can't seem to get any job and am struggling with rent arrears I realise what I have lost.

Loss can be such a major source of despair, from broken romances to loss of others through death. The whole process of bereavement is important and psychoanalytic thinkers speak of an inability to grieve as a source of later problems.

The arts in general thrive on people living with despair. One book which I found useful was 'The Outsider', by Colin Wilson. He looks at suffering and creativity through the writings of the existentialists and others, including Van Gogh. He quotes what are believed to be Van Gogh's last words, 'The misery will never end.

The distinction between the highs and the lows is so strong in music, including Jim Morrison and others too. The search for the numinousity of joy often results in the opposite state. Then; there is the quest to escape from the prisons of despair.

You may have a point about physical exercise and going outside is probably important too. I know that my bloods showed severe vitamin D deficiency a couple of times, including in a heatwave. As someone who is into contemplating life I am inclined to spend too much time indoors, ruminating. There is a danger of going into black holes in the process.

Thinking of your ideas on mind created reality, I do wonder about the role of mind in leading to stated of despair. It may be that each of us creates one's own heavens and hells through nursing our own inner demons. I wonder about the role of the subconscious mind in self sabotage and in the nature of experiences in the physical world. In other words, do the dramas in life arise on account of subconscious aspects of will. For example, when my bed was being attacked by bed bugs I wondered if they symbolised my inner demons. However, I don't wish to end up sounding like Harry Potter.

I also do wonder about the role of pain and suffering in life and how even despair may be transformational. It may lead to deeper searching. The issue may be about being broken by despair, or a means of enlightenment. The difference may be a fine line and may even shift between the two.

I will try to look into Nussbaum' s philosophy as I had not come across it. The idea of emotions based upon a thinking creature's evaluation does seem important, as the phenomenology of emotions, including despair.

One aspect which I see as an area of distinction here is the difference between despair about one's own life situation and that of other people or lifeforms. In its basic clinical aspects of depression, the thwarting of one's own needs, especially the basic physiological ones and social ones may be intrinsic. On another level, of self actualisation, higher needs may come into play. So, it may be that a person looks out beyond the immediate sphere and sees the needs of others and, these may crossover with altruistic concerns.

Here, the basic functions of human life may come into play in perspectives of pessimism and optimism. In particular, there is the quandary of one's own future and the survival of the human race and planet. So, feelings of despair may occur about one's own life or further. I wonder about this interplay and to what extent can egoism be a starting point for going beyond one's personal concerns. In other words, to what extent is the idea and emotions of despair different when focused upon personal or artistic concerns or wider ones about how humanity and the planet?

The relationship between nihilism and optimism may vary so much, and may depend on material conditions. If may be so much easier to endure ideas of negativity in physical comfort and wealth than in conditions of poverty, austerity and physical suffering.

The relationship between the inner, psychological aspects of happiness and unhappiness and ideas of despair and nihilism may involve many variables. There is the question as to whether states of mind and intention have a subconscious role in the nature of manifest experience. So, to what extent do pessimism and optimism have a determining role in the conjuring of our own life experiences and circumstances? Alternatively, to what extent do our experiences and circumstances determine our philosophical outlooks?

I am unsure to what extent despair is a state of mind, relating to attitude and mood, or a philosophical point of view or perspective. It is that question that which has led me to ask the thread question. In particular, I feel despairing about the state of the world. In thinking about this, I am unsure to what extent this is based on my own life circumstances and what I see on a larger scale. Here, it may be a complex clouding in the perspective of suffering. It is in such respects that I ask about despair: to what extent is it an emotional framework or a rational evaluation of suffering in life?

The relationship between nihilism and despair is complex, especially as it may be possible to be a 'happy nihilist'. Pleasure may be possible in the midst of the most bleak views of life.

Nevertheless, I wonder to what extent is the opposite true. If one is living in the harshest of conditions, including poverty and war, how does a philosophy of optimism stand? Are philosophies which encourage 'hope' and 'positivity' amidst harsh outer circumstances, mere ideologies?

I am not sure that any of this is simple, especially as the juxtaposition between outer and inner suffering is constructed subjectively. Despair, and hope, are constructed in subjective and intersubjective ways; this may mean that the spectrum between hope and despair is a continuum. The various points may arise in subjective aspects of the construction of the largest picture, and, attitudes of despair and pessimism may be developed in cultural contexts, as well as in the vast array of subjective psychological states of mind.

I wonder to what extent despair is a temperament or a philosophical perspective? Also, to what extent is it a chosen viewpoint or one arrived at through outer experience of suffering?

I am certainly not an advocate of the philosophy of despair but wonder how such a state stands in adversity. There is so much suffering and conflict in the world, through poverty, war and conflict, as well as interpersonal issues. So, I wonder about pessimism and optimism in this respect. It may be about states of mind, including moods, but, may also involve cognitive framing of how practical life works.