you are the one going on about bathrooms — Harry Hindu

Because that’s what we were both discussing. You said "we separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts."

I just want to understand how artificial sex parts factor into your separation.

I'm talking about the relationship between gender and sex. — Harry Hindu

And that's been addressed several times before.

Sex "is the biological trait that determines whether a sexually reproducing organism produces male or female gametes."

Gender "is the range of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of being a man (or boy), woman (or girl), or third gender."

In most cases one's gender is determined by one's sex, but given the existence of transgender people – and societies with more than two genders – this is not a necessity.

You are contradicting yourself. — Harry Hindu

No, I’m not.

It’s a very simple question, Harry. If you are in charge of deciding who is allowed to use which bathroom, then would you require that trans men who have had genital surgery and now have an artificial penis use the men’s bathroom or the women’s bathroom?

If you're not conflating gender and sex then why are you calling people who modified their sexual biology trans-gender? — Harry Hindu

I’m not.

You claimed that the reason we have separate bathrooms for men and women is because men and women have different sex organs. And it is a simple fact that some trans people have genital surgery. So I’m asking you which bathroom they should use after having genital surgery.

In proposing unisex bathrooms you are taking away the trans-gender person's reasons for having surgery in the first place - to affirm their gender — Harry Hindu

I’m not.

...but it would not include most trans-people as most trans have not had surgery. So you would still force a man wearing a dress into the men's bathroom. — Harry Hindu

I’m not the one claiming that we ought divide bathrooms by sex organs; you are.

I’m simply pointing out that if we divide bathrooms by sex organs then it makes sense to allow trans men who have had surgery to use the men’s bathroom and trans women who have had surgery to use the women’s bathroom.

Surely one’s karyotype is irrelevant, as are the gentitals one was born with (and no longer have)?

So women should stand aside as usual. — Malcolm Parry

I have no idea what you mean here.

I’m simply pointing out the fact that it is safer for everyone if trans people are allowed to use their preferred bathroom.

So either you disagree with the facts or you don’t actually care about people’s safety at all. Perhaps you’re just using that as a dog whistle to push an anti-trans agenda.

I'm saying (a) is false — Malcolm Parry

The evidence shows otherwise.

men should not be allowed in women's exclusive spaces — Malcolm Parry

Yet again with the equivocation.

The claim is that no bathroom should be exclusive to a single biological sex. If bathrooms are to be divided then they ought be divided by gender identity. As such, there are “female gender bathrooms” and “male gender bathrooms”, with “female gender bathrooms” exclusive to both cisgender and transgender women and “male gender bathrooms” exclusive to both cisgender and transgender men.

The studies show that this is the safer option for everyone.

Are you saying women are stupid to feel that they should exclude men from their exclusive places? — Malcolm Parry

I’m saying that:

a) cisgender women are not put at risk by trans-inclusive bathroom policies, and

b) trans people are put at risk of abuse when forced to use the bathroom contrary to their gender identity

Are you saying that (a) and/or (b) are false? Or are you saying that you don’t care that they’re true?

No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, according to a new study from the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law. The study is the first of its kind to rigorously test the relationship between nondiscrimination laws in public accommodations and reports of crime in public restrooms and other gender-segregated facilities.

“Opponents of public accommodations laws that include gender identity protections often claim that the laws leave women and children vulnerable to attack in public restrooms,” said lead author Amira Hasenbush. “But this study provides evidence that these incidents are rare and unrelated to the laws.”

...

“Research has shown that transgender people are frequently denied access, verbally harassed or physically assaulted while trying to use public restrooms,” according to Jody L. Herman, one of the study’s authors and a public policy scholar at the Williams Institute. “This study should provide some assurance that these types of public accommodations laws provide necessary protections for transgender people and maintain safety and privacy for everyone.”

you wish to allow males into female spaces — Malcolm Parry

I wish to allow transgender women to use the women’s bathroom and transgender men to use the men’s bathroom.

playing down the concerns females have at males gaining access to to places where females feel vulnerable and uncomfortable in the presence of males. — Malcolm Parry

I don’t play it down. I just also acknowledge that trans women feel vulnerable and uncomfortable using the men’s bathroom, that trans men feel vulnerable and uncomfortable using the women’s bathroom, that trans people are at a greater risk of abuse when forced to use the bathroom contrary to their gender identity, and that despite the dog whistle, cisgender women are not put at risk by trans-inclusive bathroom policies.

You are denying this difference and wish to play down the woman's experience in modern society. — Malcolm Parry

I’m not playing down women’s experiences. I’m simply explaining that “women’s experiences” is not reducible to “the experience of humans with an XX karyotype, ovaries, and a vagina.”

Women as a gender is distinct from women as a sex, even if they almost always correspond. The fact that they almost always correspond has caused you to mistakenly conflate the two.

I doubt many men would care. — Malcolm Parry

And yet the poll you linked to says that 51% of men oppose trans men using the men's toilets (with only 33% in support). So evidently most men do care.

The person's biology has a huge influence on the development someone. — Malcolm Parry

Yes, but there's more to biology, and in particular neurology, than just sex chromosomes and genitals.

Men growing up will not have the same experiences women. — Malcolm Parry

And transgender women growing up will not have the same experiences as cisgender men, and transgender men growing up will not have the same experiences as cisgender women. It's not all about sex chromosomes and genitals. I don't know why you can't accept this. We are not merely biological automatons. We are conscious organisms with complex psychologies and personal identities, with gender identity "develop[ing] surprisingly rapidly in the early childhood years, and in the majority of instances appears to become at least partially irreversible by the age of 3 or 4."

The gender is reflection of the societal differences between the sexes. — Malcolm Parry

And these societal differences have nothing to do with biology. Gender is distinct from sex.

read the link — Malcolm Parry

Ah, so public opinion changed between 2022 and 2024. It's interesting that there's such a large swing in just two years. There's even a majority opposition to trans men using the men's bathroom, and again with men being much less tolerant than women. But speaking as a man, I don't care what other men think. Trans men ought be allowed to use the men's bathroom.

The age breakdown is also interesting, with the majority of 18-24 year olds supporting trans people using their preferred bathroom, and every other age group being the opposite. The other biggest determinants are who you voted for (more Lib Dems support it than oppose, whereas more Conservatives oppose it than support) and whether or not you know a trans person.

I wonder how much of the opposition is reminiscent of historical (and even current) homophobia and gay panic.

Allowing men into women's bathrooms. — Malcolm Parry

When including transwomen who have had gender-affirming surgery, 45% of women say that transwomen should be allowed to use the women's bathroom compared to 34% who say they shouldn't (with 21% saying they don't know). 45 is greater than 34.

So this ties into my claim to Harry Hindu that we ought to at least let trans women who have had bottom surgery use the women's bathroom and trans men who have had bottom surgery use the men's bathroom.

But what's most interesting I think is that men are much less tolerant of transwomen using women's facilities than women are. I don't know if that's because men are in general less tolerant of transgender people or because they're white knighting.

Gender is the societal differences between the sexes. — Malcolm Parry

These societal differences are distinct from any biological differences, so clearly gender is distinct from sex. And people can identify as belonging to the gender that is not typical for their biological sex.

Looks like the majority of women disagree with you. Do you dismiss that? — Malcolm Parry

Disagree with me on what?

Dismissing their concerns and shared experience. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not dismissing it.

But as it may interest you:

You want males to enter their exclusive places. Is that not dismissing it? — Malcolm Parry

I am questioning the claim that certain bathrooms ought be exclusive to biological women.

I think that is a meaningless concept and dismisses what it is to be female. — Malcolm Parry

So you deny the reality that gender is distinct from sex?

You have dismissed the concerns of females in spaces where they are may feel awkward and vulnerable. The toilet is one of those places. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not dismissing it.

I reject the notion that man can become a woman. — Malcolm Parry

Again with the equivocation. Nobody is claiming that a biological man can become a biological woman or that a biological woman can become a biological man. What is claimed is that biological men can have a female gender identity, that biological women can have a male gender identity, and that certain social divisions ought be made by gender identity rather than biological sex.

Separate bathrooms is not just about sex organs and the place of females in society is not based just on sex organs. — Malcolm Parry

Harry Hindu is the one who said "we separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts" and so I am simply addressing the implications of this reasoning.

I find the whole dismissive attitude to female experience in society quite sad. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not dismissing it. But you certainly seem to be dismissing transgender experience.

You continue to think that transgender women are psychologically, socially, and culturally equivalent to cisgender men simply because they share the same set of chromosomes, gonads, and genitals. Your view is mistaken.

but there are still threats to females and unique challenges for females — Malcolm Parry

And there are threats to and unique challenges for transgender men and transgender women.

Here we go again with conflating gender with biology, which leaves out those that have not had surgery. — Harry Hindu

I’m not conflating gender with biology. I am simply pointing out that if we separate bathrooms according on one’s sex organs, as you say we should, then it makes sense to allow those with an artificial penis to use the same bathroom as those with a natural penis and to allow those with an artificial vagina to use the same bathroom as those with a natural vagina.

Included in those with artificial genitals are trans people who have had surgery, intersex people who have had surgery, and cisgender people who have had surgery after an unfortunate accident with a buzz saw.

I have also asked for examples of gender as something psychological. I have already shown an example of gender as something cultural (sexist tropes). So I'm still waiting on you to provide an example of what you mean. Just tell me what you mean when you assert you are a man or woman? Why can't you do that simple thing? — Harry Hindu

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

I'm not even saying they're wrong. I'm asking a question about how they can they reach the conclusions they have when the evidence they provide doesn't include necessary information to reach that conclusion and is contradictory. I asked how it logically follows that these distinctions qualify as sexual differences if they occur across both sexes. This is required information and the fact that it is not included is suspicious. The fact that I cannot find the information is also suspicious - kind of like how that study that showed the negative effects of transitioning children was swept under the rug. I have shown evidence that scientists are not always truthful and can be manipulated by politics as much as anyone else, yet you keep pleading to authority when I have shown that the authority you are pleading to has not provided all the necessary information and has been caught keeping necessary information out of the public view.

And when we live in an age of disinformation propagated by the authorities on both sides of the political spectrum, why would you not at least question authority than hides necessary information to claim what they are claiming? — Harry Hindu

If you don’t trust what the experts have determined then I don’t see how I can help. As I alluded to before, I can no more prove that there are sex differences in psychology than I can prove that humans evolved via natural selection from single-celled organisms. All I can do is point you in the direction of the research. What you do with that is out of my control.

Well shoot why not a fourth gender? Or a fifth. Or a sixth. Or a 12th while we're at it! This is not slippery slope fallacy, this is what people will attempt to argue for. — Outlander

Well, yes. The Bugis society recognizes five genders, and has so for at least 600 years.

A limit must be drawn lest mankind wander forever lost in a dystopian deluge of his own making. — Outlander

Why? There's no singularly correct way for society and culture to be structured. You seem to have some Western bias, thinking that it's only appropriate to group people according to biological sex and not in other ways.

What I mean is that tuxedos being “men’s clothes” and dresses being “women’s clothes” is entirely a social and cultural construct and has nothing to do with a person’s DNA. And the same for other social and cultural differences between the sexes.

Certainly many psychological differences between the sexes are influenced by karyotype - to the extent that karyotype influences hormones and that nature trumps nurture - and these psychological differences may explain why certain gender roles and gender expressions are the way they are - which is what I was explaining in that comment.

We separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts. — Harry Hindu

Which is why I said it makes sense to let trans women who have had bottom surgery use the women’s bathroom and trans men who have had bottom surgery use the men’s bathroom.

So which is it, is gender a social construct - a spectrum of societal expectations of the sexes, or is it a spectrum of various feelings an individual has? — Harry Hindu

It’s both, which is why the article on gender that I directed you to says “gender is the range of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of being a man (or boy), woman (or girl), or third gender.”

If gender is psychological then provide some examples that are clearly psychological (which would just mean that they are biological) instead of being clearly social/cultural - like wearing a dress and high heels is. — Harry Hindu

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

It's your argument. You're the one that needs to support it, not me. — Harry Hindu

It’s not my argument. It’s what the experts in psychology and psychiatry have determined. If you think that they're wrong then the burden is on you to explain where they’ve gone wrong. I no more have to support their claims than I have to support the claims of biologists when trying to educate someone on evolution.

And this is the fundamental problem with your position. You seem to question the very existence of gender (as something distinct from biological sex) despite what the experts say and despite the existence of transgender people.

It's one thing to argue that sports teams, bathrooms, prisons, etc. ought be divided by biological sex regardless of gender identity – and as this is a political matter you're well within your rights to – but to deny that gender identity is even a thing strikes me as willful ignorance.

You're getting a little speculative there. — frank

Yep.

It’s interesting to consider how and why the social and cultural differences between men and women have developed over time. I suspect things were very different in the Paleolithic.

I'm suggesting the possibility that the majority of the differences between sexes found in the article you linked are cultural, social, and otherwise "learned." — Outlander

It does say as much:

Sex differences in psychology are differences in the mental functions and behaviors of the sexes and are due to a complex interplay of biological, developmental, and cultural factors.

...

Such variation may be innate, learned, or both.

...

A number of factors combine to influence the development of sex differences, including genetics and epigenetics; differences in brain structure and function; hormones, and socialization.

...

Both biological and social/environmental factors have been studied for their impact on sex differences. Separating biological from environmental effects is difficult, and advocates for biological influences generally accept that social factors are also important.

So I suppose there's likely a sort of feedback loop across the centuries, with any initial social and cultural differences between the sexes stemming from "natural" psychological differences, and then these social and cultural differences being the cause of further "nurtured" psychological differences which in turn drive further social and cultural differences.

And I am asking you how it logically follows that these distinctions qualify as sexual differences if they occur across both sexes. — Harry Hindu

Presumably because of their prevalence. If some trait is typical of 98% of biological men but only 2% of biological women then it’s an example of a sex difference, but you’re better off asking a psychologist, not me.

I’ve linked to the article, it has a list of references, so do the research if you’re unwilling to trust it at face value.

I explained it very clearly above.

There are sex differences in psychology.

These differences drive the development of gender expression and gender roles in society – expressions and roles which have absolutely nothing to do with karyotype and almost nothing to do with phenotype.

Almost all biological men "belong" to the same psychological/social/cultural group, and so we (also) name this psychological/social/cultural group "men".

Almost all biological women "belong" to the same psychological/social/cultural group, and so we (also) name this psychological/social/cultural group "women".

But some biological men and some biological women do not "fit" within the typical psychological/social/cultural group that members of their biological sex usually "belong" to. Some push the boundaries of one group or the other, and so identify as "gender non-conforming", some "fit" somewhere in the middle, and so identify as "non-binary", and some "fit" within the psychological/social/cultural group that is typical of the opposite biological sex, and so identify as "transgender".

It's really not that hard to understand.

What isn't the case – contrary to your continued misrepresentations – is that transgender women are "biological men who believe they are biological women" or that transgender men are "biological women who believe they are biological men".

The delusion is that there is more to being a woman than having XX Chromosomes, ovaries and vagina. — Harry Hindu

So their delusion is in thinking that the English noun "woman" doesn't just mean "an adult human with an XX karyotype, ovaries, and a vagina"?

Well, this isn't a delusion because it's true. The English noun "woman" doesn't just mean this. It has more than one meaning. It can also refer to a non-biological gender.

And even if it were false, thinking that a word means something it doesn't hardly qualifies as a type of psychosis.

Why are we even talking about sex genitalia in a thread about gender? Again, why should it matter what sex parts one has (and to even call artificial sex parts, "sex parts" is questionable) if gender is a feeling and/or social construct? — Harry Hindu

Because people like you are claiming that things like bathrooms and changing rooms ought be divided by biological sex. So why? What is the relevant difference between biological men and biological women such that they ought get changed in different rooms? Why don't we all get changed in the same room?

Still talking about differences in sexes....

If these properties exist in both males and females then how can you say that these mental functions and behaviors are distinctions of sex rather than simply being part of the variety that exists among all humans? Also, are these mental functions and behaviors of each sex consistent across all cultures? If so, we would be talking about something biological, not cultural. — Harry Hindu

I don't understand what you're asking here.

There are observable psychological differences between the sexes. How much of this is nature and how much is nurture is still an open question, though it's likely that both play a role.

But this isn't some absolute distinction such that every biological male has one type of psychology and every biological female has the other type of psychology. There are people who fall in between, and there are biological males who share the type of psychology typical of biological females and biological females who share the type of psychology typical of biological males.

A man wearing a dress and believes that now makes him a woman has a delusional disorder. — Harry Hindu

Your phrasing equivocates. You call the transgender woman a "man", suggesting that by "man" you are referring to biological sex, and so presumably by "woman" you are also referring to biological sex?

But as has been explained many times before, the biological man who identifies as a woman doesn’t identify as having XX chromosomes, ovaries, or a vagina, and so your claim is an obvious misrepresentation.

Given that the transgender woman doesn't identify as a biological woman, what delusion is it you think she has?

What would one's bottom have to do with where you can change clothes? — Harry Hindu

You tell me. Why do we have separate men's and women's changing rooms at all? Surely it has something to do with phenotype? If so, then it stands to reason that any biological man with a female phenotype – even if artificial – ought use the women's changing room and any biological woman with a male phenotype – even if artificial – ought use the men's changing room.

There's certainly no good reason for something like karyotype to be at all relevant.

And invoking the term, "psychological" just reinforces my assertion that we are dealing with a delusional disorder. You are ignoring all the problems I posed by defining gender as a social construct. You continue to be intellectually dishonest. I have responded to each and every point you have made in your posts yet you cannot show the same respect.

I have also been asking which feelings one has that makes one a man or woman. You can't even explain what it means to be a man or woman for yourself. What feelings are you referring to when you assert you are one or the other? How am I suppose to understand what you mean when you won't explain what you mean?

How can one's feelings be gender and a social construct be gender when a trans-person's feelings is at odds with the social construct? — Harry Hindu

There are sex differences in psychology. These differences are what drive the development of gender expression and gender roles in society – expressions and roles which have absolutely nothing to do with karyotype and almost nothing to do with phenotype.

The psychology of most biological males is similar enough that they identify as belonging to the same gender, and the psychology of most biological females is similar enough that they identify as belonging to the same gender. But psychology is complex and a gradient, not straightforward and black and white. Some are gender non-conforming but still identify as (mostly) "belonging" to one gender or the other, some do not identify as "belonging" to either gender – or as "belonging" to both – and some identify as "belonging" to the gender that is most predominantly occupied by the opposite biological sex.

A society where people that do not wear clothes would be genderless as well. — Harry Hindu

It's not just about clothes. But, sure, in some idealised society that has no gender roles and where there is never any kind of separation or difference between biological males and biological females (outside of reproduction and reproductive health), and assuming for the sake of argument that sex differences in psychology are explained entirely by nurture and not by nature, then perhaps transgenderism wouldn't occur (although gender dysphoria might) – but we don't live in such a world.

You seem to be suggesting that anything that is socially or culturally "caused" therefore isn't "real"? That would be a non sequitur.

However, stories abound of kids who decide on a whim they want to be of the opposite sex, and manage to receive hormone therapies and whatnot without ever seeing a psychologist or even without their parents consent. — Tzeentch

Sure, but that’s a reason to better regulate the treatment; it’s not a reason to dismiss the treatment as an option entirely.

What about an alternative, non-invasive treatment - teaching a child to accept the healthy, natural body they have been born with? — Tzeentch

That’s usually where it starts. But it’s naive to presuppose that all cases of gender dysphoria and the like can be treated merely by psychotherapy and non-hormonal medication. It’s when this fails that other approaches are necessary.

That’s true about all children’s medical issues, and is why doctors, parents, and (when relevant) psychiatrists are also involved in the decision making.

As a related example is when the decision is made on how best to treat someone born intersex. Sometime this requires surgery to “make” them a boy or a girl.

And that's another reason transitioning should only be for mature adults. A fair number of detransitioned youths say they thought they could actually change to the opposite sex. They learned through experience post-transition, that you can't actually do that. — frank

This is where there is some difficulty. On the one hand, children are likely too young to make such drastic medical decisions, but on the other hand transitioning before puberty is likely easier and has more satisfactory results than transitioning after puberty.

I suppose we have to determine whether or not the rate of regret is sufficiently high to warrant erring on the side of caution.

Why should women have to give up their hard fought for rights to men? — Malcolm Parry

They’re not.

Whether that's a viable option seems to depend heavily on whether or not a person passes for the other sex.

This is probably the elephant in the room that is rarely talked about, because it's obviously an unfortunate thing to have to tell someone that they are unable to pass for the opposite sex, but it's the reality for many. — Tzeentch

The specific case I had in mind were those who have had bottom surgery.

It seems bizarre to say that trans men with an artificial penis ought use the women’s changing room and trans women with artificial breasts and an artificial vagina ought use the men’s changing room.

I'm not sure what the authorities could do to accommodate them. — Malcolm Parry

Let them use the women’s changing room. They shouldn’t be required to use the men’s changing room.

because many women feel threatened and uncomfortable when men are are around when they are undressing — Malcolm Parry

And I’m sure trans women who have surgically transitioned feel the same.

Incidentally, speaking of changing rooms - what does one do if a man wants to take his young daughter, or a woman her young son, to the swimming bath? This is a genuine problem that arises from the separation, however our current question is resolved. Obviously a babe in arms has to go with the parent; obviously a teen has to go on their own. Where is the line between them? And for children with Downs' or other disability? Would you send your 4 yr old to get changed on their own? (This is a genuine social dilemma I have faced with my daughter) — unenlightened

I would have thought that anywhere that has children being undressed would have private cubicles.

That’s how it was the last time I went swimming (years ago). There weren’t separate men’s and women’s changing rooms, just individual cubicles that anyone could use.

Which we disagree on. — Malcolm Parry

So why is that?

Prima facie there’s no good reason to treat people with an XX karyotype and people with an XY karyotype differently. Outside of any medical issues, what relevance is DNA to everyday life?

And prime facie there’s no good reason to treat people with ovaries and people with testes differently. Outside of any medical issues or sexual reproduction, what relevance are gonads to everyday life?

And prime facie there’s no good reason to treat people with a penis and people with a vagina differently. Outside of any medical issues or sexual reproduction, what relevance are genitals to everyday life? Perhaps it’s only relevant wherever nudity is a thing?

The question we have to then ask is why are there social and cultural differences between the sexes? Is it because of biological differences, or are biological differences merely incidental? Are there social and cultural differences between the sexes because of psychological differences between the sexes? If so, and if there are people who are biologically female but have a psychology closer to the typical biological male than to the typical biological female then it makes more sense for this individual to be treated like the typical biological male - precisely because in everyday life our psychology is much more important than our DNA, our gonads, and our genitals.

I disagree — Malcolm Parry

Which goes back to what I said on page 8.

I think that many of these discussions tend to get caught up in pointless arguments about what the “real” meaning of a word is.

If you choose to use the words "man" and "woman" to refer to the general biological dichotomy found in humans, then fine. If you choose to the use the words to refer to some general psychological or social dichotomy, then fine. It simply doesn't matter.

The pertinent question is: should bathrooms, sports teams, prisons, etc. be divided by biological sex, by gender identity, by something else, or by nothing at all? — Michael