I have only ever been addressing this claim:

Physically speaking, speech doesn't possess enough kinetic energy required to affect the world that the superstitious often claims it does. Speech, for instance, doesn't possess any more kinetic energy than any other articulated guttural sound. Writing doesn't possess any more energy than any other scratches or ink blots on paper. And so on. So the superstitious imply a physics of magical thinking that contradicts basic reality: that symbols and symbolic sounds, arranged in certain combinations, can affect and move other phases of matter above and beyond the kinetic energy inherent in the physical manifestation of their symbols.

He claims that transduction in the cochlea is not caused by auditory stimulation. He claims that I can't cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights". He claims that if I push someone off a cliff and they fall to their death then I didn't cause them to die.

It's a fundamentally flawed understanding of causation. "A causes B" doesn't just mean "B is the immediate effect of A's kinetic energy".

So I don’t know why you keep asking me about moral responsibility given that it has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have been arguing.

B is the more immediate cause of C — Harry Hindu

I agree, and always have. But it is still the case that A caused C. NOS4A2 disagrees.

B has power to override A. — Harry Hindu

Again, what does it mean for "John hit the ground at high speed" to 'override' "I pushed John off a cliff"?

Your argument does not show that, so is a straw-man. — Harry Hindu

It's not a strawmen because NOS4A2 is literally and explicitly saying that if I push someone off a cliff and they fall to their death then I didn't cause their death. He is wrong.

That is what I'm telling you - your analogy is flawed and does not represent the the nature of speech and its influence on others. — Harry Hindu

This isn't an analogy. It is a single, standalone argument.

A = I pushed John off a cliff
B = John hit the ground at high speed
C = John died

I claim that both A and B caused C. NOS4A2 claims that only B caused C.

This demonstrates that NOS4A2 has a flawed understanding of causation. He thinks that "X causes Y" is true only if Y is the immediate effect of X's kinetic energy. This is wrong.

I don't know how much clearer I need to be.

And what I'm saying is that your analogy does not take into account that the B can override A. — Harry Hindu

A = I pushed John off a cliff
B = John hit the ground at high speed
C = John dies

What does it mean for B to "override" A?

So the point is that there are more immediate causes to one's death. That is all we are saying. — Harry Hindu

That is not all NOS4A2 is saying. See our actual exchange:

If I push someone off a cliff and they fall to their death then I caused their death – I didn't just cause them to fall off a cliff. — Michael

Clearly, them hitting the ground at a certain speed caused them to die. — NOS4A2

It is both the case that them hitting the ground at a certain speed caused them to die and the case that I caused them to die by pushing them off the cliff.

I'm wasting my time if you can't even accept this simple truth — Michael

Yeah, you’re not convincing me, that’s for sure. — NOS4A2

So he isn't just arguing that some B is the "more immediate" cause of C; he's also arguing that A doesn't cause C. It is the "A doesn't cause C" that I take issue with. Nowhere have I denied that there are "more immediate" causes.

The Apple device is the "more immediate" cause of the lights turning on, but it's still the case that I cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights". NOS4A2 doesn't accept this, arguing that "all you’ve done is vibrated a diaphragm in the microphone."

I was merely showing that your example is flawed as it does not accurately represent what NOS4A2 is saying — Harry Hindu

I claimed that if I push someone off a cliff and they fall to their death then I caused their death. NOS4A2 disagreed, claiming that "hitting the ground at a certain speed" caused their death.

I am just asking if you agree with him or with me.

So I don't understand your response.

I see it as him dancing around the issue of what happens between the sound entering one's ears and a behavioral response. — Harry Hindu

I'm not dancing around it because it wasn't the topic of our discussion. NOS4A2 and I were discussing whether or not transduction (the conversion of mechanical waves into electrical signals) in the ear is caused to occur by soundwaves stimulating the eardrum.

I say it is, he says it isn't.

He seems to think that there is nothing else — Harry Hindu

No I don't and I don't know how you can possibly think that I do. I haven't said anything remotely to this effect.

But then again Michael can’t define cause. — NOS4A2

It's just the ordinary, everyday, common sense understanding. I turn on the lights by pushing a button or by pulling a chord or by saying "Siri, turn on the lights". This isn't metaphorical or allegorical or imaginary or hypothetical or superstitious or magical; it's literal and physical.

I find it quite amusing that your reasoning is akin to arguing "people don't kill people, bullets do" rather than the usual "guns don't kill people, people do". I wonder if you'd commit to this if we were discussing gun control.

It seems to me that HarryHindu and NOS4A2 think that persuasion, coercion, incitement, etc. are only real if speech is able to "puppeteer" people's body's against their will and/or irresistibly force a change of mind. It's such a bizarre understanding of these commonplace psychological notions.

Even the ardent free will libertarian accepts the reality of such things, with many agreeing that coerced behaviour is in a relevant sense "involuntary" (even if, physically and metaphysically speaking, one could have chosen to do otherwise). As a particular example that seems fitting for political libertarians, paying taxes is voluntary in one sense but involuntary in another.

A relevant question to ask them is: are laws that prohibit speech unjust because they coerce people into silence, or is it just the punishment that is unjust? If the former then they accept that external factors can influence our own behaviours, rendering at least one of the arguments presented here in defence of free speech absolutism null and void.

your analogy does not accurately represent what I said. — Harry Hindu

?

I claimed that if I push someone off a cliff and they fall to their death then I caused their death. NOS4A2 disagreed. You responded to his disagreement.

Hence why I asked you to clarify if you were agreeing with him re. not being able to cause someone's death by pushing them off a cliff.

Or was your reply to him unrelated to the context of his comment?

The system that receives the kinetic energy is capable of dampening or amplifying the kinetic energy and redirecting it for its own purposes. — Harry Hindu

Are you agreeing with his claim that if I push someone off a cliff and they fall to their death then I didn't cause their death (only hitting the ground did)?

@Sam26

It's worth noting that Wittgenstein disagreed with Gödel's incompleteness theorem (although apparently he misunderstood it).

From Remarks on the Foundations of Mathematics:

I imagine someone asking my advice; he says: "I have constructed a proposition (I will use 'P' to designate it) in Russell's symbolism, and by means of certain definitions and transformations it can be so interpreted that it says: 'P is not provable in Russell's system'. Must I not say that this proposition on the one hand is true, and on the other hand unprovable? For suppose it were false; then it is true that it is provable. And that surely cannot be! And if it is proved, then it is proved that it is not provable. Thus it can only be true, but unprovable." Just as we can ask, " 'Provable' in what system?," so we must also ask, "'True' in what system?" "True in Russell's system" means, as was said, proved in Russell's system, and "false" in Russell's system means the opposite has been proved in Russell's system.—Now, what does your "suppose it is false" mean? In the Russell sense it means, "suppose the opposite is proved in Russell's system"; if that is your assumption you will now presumably give up the interpretation that it is unprovable. And by "this interpretation" I understand the translation into this English sentence.—If you assume that the proposition is provable in Russell's system, that means it is true in the Russell sense, and the interpretation "P is not provable" again has to be given up. If you assume that the proposition is true in the Russell sense, the same thing follows. Further: if the proposition is supposed to be false in some other than the Russell sense, then it does not contradict this for it to be proved in Russell's system. (What is called "losing" in chess may constitute winning in another game.)

Clearly, them hitting the ground at a certain speed caused them to die. — NOS4A2

It is both the case that them hitting the ground at a certain speed caused them to die and the case that I caused them to die by pushing them off the cliff.

I'm wasting my time if you can't even accept this simple truth, so I'm going to end my part in this discussion.

Yes, in ordinary language you’ve turned on the lights. I accept everyday ordinary speech. But you haven’t ignited the filament. You haven’t sent a current from the panel to the fixture. You haven’t converted analog sounds to digital signals for the purposes of possessing. — NOS4A2

So I turned on the lights but not really? Is "I turned on the lights" just a metaphor and not literally true?

What’s the difference to you between a “caused” object and an “uncaused” object? Because what I am saying is object A does act B. Act B is not infinite, so it begins and ends. By observations we can watch object A begin his act B. This can be confirmed empirically and is consistent with physics. So what evidence can you provide that some other object C, caused or uncaused, starts and ends act B? — NOS4A2

Either something causes A to do B or A does B spontaneously and without cause. The latter is inconsistent with physics.

And this is where it's important to not miss the trees for the forest. Yes, John turned his head towards the sound. But what caused the muscles in his neck to contract? What caused his brain to release neurotransmitters to the muscles in his neck? What caused his ears to release neurotransmitters to his brain? Transduction does not occur spontaneously and without cause; it is a causally determined response to external stimulation.

But your soundwave doesn’t do anything beyond moving the diaphragm. Neither you nor your soundwave convert analogue sounds to digital. That’s what the device does. In other words, your words have caused none of that to happen. — NOS4A2

As I have been trying to explain for several weeks now, this is an impoverished understanding of causation. If I push someone off a cliff and they fall to their death then I caused their death – I didn't just cause them to fall off a cliff.

And your untenable reasoning is that the kinetic energy required to break someone's bones and crush their organs is greater than the kinetic energy imparted by my arm when I pushed them, and so therefore I didn't cause their death?

It was a false analogy. I was hoping to just drop it altogether so that we could discuss words and human beings. — NOS4A2

It's not just an analogy; it's also a standalone argument. I am saying that a) I can turn on the lights by saying "Siri, turn on the lights" and so therefore b) "symbols and symbolic sounds, arranged in certain combinations, can affect and move other phases of matter above and beyond the kinetic energy inherent in the physical manifestation of their symbols".

If (a) is true then (b) is true, and if (b) is true then your claim that (b) is "superstitious, magical thinking" is false.

But even as an analogy it's not false. Causal determinism applies to both organic and inorganic matter. The subsequent behaviour of both a cochlea and a microphone is a causally determined response to soundwaves. Even the typical interactionist dualist can accept this, restricting agent-causal libertarian free will to voluntary bodily behaviours (of which transduction is not an example).

All you’ve done is vibrated a diaphragm in the microphone. You’ve caused that movement, sure, but you haven’t moved or affected anything else. — NOS4A2

I have done something else; I turned on the lights. You accepted this before, so why the about turn?

I’m not using causal chains, and I’m not sure why anyone would, especially in a thermodynamic system full of feedback-loops. I said the genesis of a behavior or act, not the genesis of a causal chain. — NOS4A2

Then what does it mean for some A to be the "genesis" of act B if not for A to be the uncaused cause of B?

By law of excluded middle, your “genesis” is either caused or uncaused. If it’s uncaused then it’s inconsistent with physics. If it’s caused then it’s consistent with causal determinism, and so consistent with compatibilism (although the term “genesis” an evident misnomer).

I don’t understand it because if something else causes you to cause your arm to move, you are not the source of your action, and therefore have no free will. — NOS4A2

All I need is for my behaviour to be caused by and consistent with my volition. This is how I distinguish between voluntary bodily behavior – e.g. lifting my arm – and involuntary bodily behaviour – e.g. my heartbeat. It's not clear to me how you distinguish between voluntary and involuntary bodily behaviour. The fact that my volition is a causally determined physical phenomenon is irrelevant.

But again, I cannot see how your position on free will is at all compatible with eliminative materialism. You deny causal determinism and claim ignorance about quantum indeterminacy, but these are the only two options if physicalism is true. I see no way to maintain agent-causal libertarian free will without arguing for interactionist dualism.

The structures, energy, and movements of the ear cause the ear to release neurotransmitters. The structures, energy, and movements of the ear cause the ear to transduce sound. The structures, energy, and movements of the body cause all subsequent behaviors. — NOS4A2

The structures, energy, and movements of the Apple device cause the release of electrical signals. But it's also the case that I cause the release of these electrical signals by saying "Siri, turn on the lights." These are not mutually exclusive.

The internal behaviour of the Apple device, like the internal behaviour of the ear, is causally determined by some external stimulus. They are not spontaneous, acausal phenomena, and it is not a mere coincidence or correlation that the Apple device releases electrical signals and the ear releases neurotransmitters when stimulated by sound. There is a causal connection between the events.

You haven’t shown it. You’ve provided no evidence that speech possesses any “power” above and beyond the mechanical energy in the vibration. We know this because we have the devices, measurements, and formulas to prove it. We can measure the power of a soundwave, and never once have any of them measured energy or power over and above the mechanical energy inherent in the wave. The hydraulic and electrical energy required for hearing are properties of the body, provided by the body, generated by the body, caused by the body, not the soundwave. Only superstition and magical thinking will try to say otherwise. — NOS4A2

I cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights." You accepted this before, so why the about turn?

It’s just interesting that you start it there all the while maintaining that you are not the source of your actions. — NOS4A2

I don't start it there. I'm only saying that I cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights". If this is true, which it is, then "symbols and symbolic sounds, arranged in certain combinations, can affect and move other phases of matter above and beyond the kinetic energy inherent in the physical manifestation of their symbols" and so your argument fails.

No one said human bodies are uncaused causes. If causal reasoning is all you understand, I’m saying the body causes the arm to move, by which I mean you move your arm. Does that imply that bodies are uncaused causes? Of course not. And all of this can be shown empirically. If nothing else can be shown to move your arm, you are the “cause” of moving your arm, the source of your arm movement. This shouldn’t be controversial. — NOS4A2

You also said that my arm's movement finds its "genesis" in me. What does it mean for some A to be the "genesis" of a causal chain if not for A to be an uncaused cause? If some B caused A then surely A isn't the "genesis" of a causal chain?

I agree that I cause my arm to move. I just also understand that causal determinism is true. These are not mutually exclusive. Hence why I am a free will compatibilist.

None of the links you mention are inhuman, though. — NOS4A2

The soundwaves that cause the ear to release neurotransmitters to the brain (causing certain neurons to activate, causing certain muscles to contract, etc.) are inhuman.

we get an uncountable amount of causes and effects more than you’re willing to provide. — NOS4A2

I don't need to provide more. I only need to show that the causal power of speech extends beyond just the immediate transfer of kinetic energy. I can cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights". This is a sufficient refutation of your accusation of "superstition" and "magical thinking".

It is you who is arbitrarily beginning causal chains and events despite saying there is only one beginning. — NOS4A2

I'm not arbitrarily beginning any chain. I'm saying that I can cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights." Nowhere have I said that I am the beginning of this causal chain.

You are the one who arbitrarily begins chains, arguing that anything the ear does is the beginning and not the effect of sound wave stimulation. But then can’t appear to make up your mind over whether the behaviour of a radio receiver is the beginning or the effect of radio wave stimulation.

What I claimed was that you begin the process of your actions. — NOS4A2

Which requires the existence of an uncaused cause within the human body which is incompatible with known physics.

You will understand this if you don't ignore the trees for the forest. It's not enough to just say "the human causes his arm to move." You need to ask; what caused the muscles to contract? What caused the neurotransmitter to be delivered to the muscles? What caused these neurons to release a neurotransmitter? What caused these neurons to activate? Continue along this chain and you realize the reality that many of the body's behaviours are a causal response to stimulation and thus some stimulus. This just is what it means to sense the environment.

Also, you treat human bodies and computer devices like Rube Goldberg machines or dominos. And you won’t account for any other intervening forces or objects in your events. — NOS4A2

I do account for intervening forces or objects. I've mentioned them several times. As an example, a powered Apple device connected to the lights is usually required for me to cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights."

It's still the case that I cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights."

Words literally cause mindstates, when heard in certain contexts. — AmadeusD

Unfortunately we haven't even reached this stage. He can't even accept that sound waves cause the cochlea to release neurotransmitters.

And here we have it. The Big Bang begins the process of raising your arm and turning on the lights. So you’ve caused nothing, really. — NOS4A2

I cause many things. Your claim that A causes B only if A is uncaused is false, as is your claim that there are uncaused causes within the human body.

Symbols and symbolic sounds, arranged in certain combinations, can affect and move other phases of matter above and beyond the kinetic energy inherent in the physical manifestation of their symbols. I can use speech to cause the lights to turn on and I can use speech to cause your ears to send neurotransmitters to your brain. This is the reality of physics; not superstition or magical thinking. Your attempt at a defense of free speech fails.

I'll interpret the lack of any rebuttal on your part to everything else I said regarding free speech as an agreement with what I said about free speech. — Harry Hindu

You can take it as me not engaging with an argument that I wasn't addressing.

You can turn on the lights. You cannot move the components of the device, the energy within the system, or heat the filament in a bulb with your voice. — NOS4A2

It makes no sense to say that I cause the light to turn on but don't cause the [whatever] to heat the filament in the bulb given that these are one and the same.

I mean simply that you begin the process of your actions, that your actions find their genesis in you and nowhere else. — NOS4A2

Which makes no sense unless there is an uncaused cause within the human body.

When does physical event A begin and when does physical event B end? At what point in your temporal series does the cause occur? — NOS4A2

This is like asking me how long a piece of string is.

Humans have been hearing for the better part of their lives, even in the womb, and so the process of hearing begins as soon as the organism forms and begins to function in such a way. It doesn’t stop and then begin again in discrete temporal units and at the discretion of external sound waves. — NOS4A2

And it's the case that the sound waves cause the ear drum to vibrate which cause the ossicles to vibrate which cause the hair cells in the cochlea to bend which cause potassium and calcium ions to enter the opening which cause the release of neurotransmitters – and so it's the case that speech causes transduction in the ear.

So then what object or force begins the process of lifting your arm? — NOS4A2

The only beginning is the Big Bang because there are no uncaused events in physics. This is causal determinism:

Causal determinism proposes that there is an unbroken chain of prior occurrences stretching back to the origin of the universe.

...

Causal determinists believe that there is nothing in the universe that has no cause or is self-caused. Causal determinism has also been considered more generally as the idea that everything that happens or exists is caused by antecedent conditions.

Unless eliminative materialism is false and interactionist dualism is true, in which case it's possible that some non-physical volition is the beginning. Are you willing to commit to that?

Then what you're saying is that you and NOS4A2 have gone off-topic — Harry Hindu

Yes. His defense of free speech argues that soundwaves do not cause the hairs in the inner ear to convert mechanical energy into electrical signals. I have only been trying to explain that this interpretation of causation is false, and so his defense of free speech fails.

Yes, you can turn on lights — NOS4A2

So I can turn on the lights by saying "Siri, turn on the lights."

Therefore, I can cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights."

Therefore, the spoken words "Siri, turn on the lights" can cause the lights to turn on.

Therefore, "symbols and symbolic sounds, arranged in certain combinations, can affect and move other phases of matter above and beyond the kinetic energy inherent in the physical manifestation of their symbols."

Uncaused cause? No. — NOS4A2

Then what do you mean by "an agent's action originates within the agent" and "Your 'causal chains' begin within the agent"?

For any given physical event A, either some physical event B caused A to happen, in which case A is not the beginning of a causal chain, or A is an uncaused event.

As an example, consider the hair cells in the inner ear converting mechanical energy into electrical signals. This is not an uncaused event. It is not the beginning of a causal chain. It is a causally determined response to this mechanical energy. And this mechanical energy is not an uncaused event. It is not the beginning of a causal chain. It is a causally determined response to soundwaves interacting with the ear drum. And so on.

Then what besides the agent controls the agent’s arm? — NOS4A2

The agent controls the arm.

I am saying that x can have control over a even if x is not the "ultimate source" of a.

As an example, Siri has control over the lights even though its control over the lights is causally determined by other things (such as my commands and an energy supply).

Not without Siri, apparently. — NOS4A2

With Siri or by clapping my hands or by flicking a switch or by pulling a chord. There are many ways to turn on the lights.

But I can turn on the lights. So causal influence doesn't end at "mov[ing] diaphragms in microphones and flick[ing] switches" as you claim.

Neither. — NOS4A2

If physicalism is true and if hidden-variable theory is true then determinism is true. There's no avoiding this. So if determinism is false then either physicalism is false or hidden-variable theory is false. Which is it? If the latter then that just means that some things are random.

By "ultimate source" I mean an agent's action originates within the agent, and nowhere else. Your "causal chains" begin within the agent. — NOS4A2

So you want an uncaused cause occurring within the human body. This is incompatible with physics. Your position on free will requires a non-physical agent/non-physical agency yet you endorse eliminative materialism. You must relinquish one of these to avoid contradiction.

I’ll copy and paste the full incompatibalist source hood argument and you can let me know which premise you disagree with.

1. Any agent, x, performs an any act, a, of her own free will iff x has control over a.
x has control over a only if x is the ultimate source of a. — NOS4A2

I disagree with "x has control over a only if x is the ultimate source of a."

You can move diaphragms in microphones and flick switches. As far as influence goes, that’s not much. — NOS4A2

And I can turn on the lights.

There are multitudes of events and causes you’re leaving out — NOS4A2

Because they're not relevant to the discussion. It should go without saying that I can only turn on the lights if there is a power supply to my house.

The fact that there are multiple causes does not entail that I am not one of these causes.

A person acts of her own free will only if she is its ultimate source. — NOS4A2

I don't know what it means to be an "ultimate" source.

But, again, the only way to avoid determinism is by arguing for either quantum indeterminacy without hidden variables (in which case some things are just random, but nonetheless the effect of some physical cause) or interactionist dualism. So which is it?

Whose goals are being realized - yours or the hacker's? — Harry Hindu

The hacker's.

Who had more control over what happens when you say, "Siri, open the blinds." You or the hacker? — Harry Hindu

I don't quite understand the question. All I am saying is that I cause the doors to open by saying "Siri, open the blinds."

You seem to be thinking that that is where the story ends. — Harry Hindu

No, I don't. I'm not yet addressing that, because NOS4A2 can't even accept that sounds can cause the ears to send an electrical signal to the brain. He can't even accept that sounds can cause the lights to turn on.

You continue to point everywhere else (at strawmen). — Harry Hindu

I am simply responding to this claim made by NOS4A2:

So the superstitious imply a physics of magical thinking that contradicts basic reality: that symbols and symbolic sounds, arranged in certain combinations, can affect and move other phases of matter above and beyond the kinetic energy inherent in the physical manifestation of their symbols.

His claim is false. I can cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights" or by clapping my hands.

I'm not sure. I'm still trying to figure that out. — Harry Hindu

I'm saying exactly what I'm saying, nothing more. You are trying to read something else into it that just isn't there.

What if a hacker hacked your home network and now Siri unlocks your doors instead of opening the blinds? — Harry Hindu

Then saying "Siri, open the blinds" will cause the doors to open.

Who would you call to fix the issue - a linguist, a political scientist, an electrician, or an information technology expert? — Harry Hindu

An information technology expert.

It is only the case that you often do cause the light to turn on by flicking the switch because the intervening technology is reliable - far more reliable than your speech's effect on other people. So how do you explain the discrepancy between the reliable outcome of your light turning on vs the unreliable outcomes of your speech? — Harry Hindu

The "reliable" outcome is that my speech will cause the listener's ears to send an electrical signal to their brain (unless they're deaf). This is where NOS4A2 disagrees, and is the extent of my argument with him (notwithstanding the corollary debate on the nature of free will).

Again, you seem to think I'm saying something I'm not. What do you think I'm saying?

But sometimes Siri does not open the blinds. How do you explain that — Harry Hindu

It’s turned off or broken.

Much like sometimes when I flick the light switch the light doesn’t turn on, perhaps because of faulty wiring or a power cut. But it’s still the case that I can and do often cause the light to turn on by flicking the switch.

What is so difficult to understand about this? You seem to think I’m saying something I’m not and I don’t know what that is.

No, the kinetic energy of your voice moves a diaphragm or some other device in the microphone. That's it. That's as far as your "causal influence" goes. — NOS4A2

It's not as far as the causal influence goes. I turn on the lights by saying "Siri, turn on the lights" or by clapping my hands or by pushing a button.

You seemed to accept this before.

It's a problem I have with the weasel word "causally influence" and the limited knowledge I have of the components of the device. I've already admitted the kinetic energy in the sound waves of your voice can cause something to move in the listening-component (like any other sound wave), but weather you "causally influence" the behavior of the entire machine I cannot fathom because the machine is largely following the instructions of its programming or artificial intelligence, and not necessarily your voice. — NOS4A2

My computer displays these words on my screen as I type them because I type them. It's not a mere coincidence that they correlate. There is a causal chain of events. What is so difficult to understand about this?

For me, the only question that needs be answered is “what object or force determines human behavior?”. If it is the agent, then he has free will. — NOS4A2

Which is consistent with compatibilism.

But if you want to argue that we have free will and that determinism is false then your only apparent options are interactionist dualism (in which case eliminative materialism, and physicalism in general, is false) and quantum indeterminacy without hidden variables (in which case some things are just random, but still the effect of some physical cause).

I'm arguing against this claim of his:

So the superstitious imply a physics of magical thinking that contradicts basic reality: that symbols and symbolic sounds, arranged in certain combinations, can affect and move other phases of matter above and beyond the kinetic energy inherent in the physical manifestation of their symbols.

It's false. I can open the blinds by saying "Siri, open the blinds."

They do address the issue that we’ve been discussing for pages. But you’re causing me to not understand. As far as I know eliminative materialism is the claim that some of the mental states posited thus far do not actually exist. What does quantum indeterminacy and hidden variables have to do with eliminate materialism? — NOS4A2

If eliminative materialism is true then mental states do not exist and everything is physical. If hidden variables explain quantum indeterminacy then all physical events — including human behaviour — are deterministic. If there are no hidden variables then quantum indeterminacy is true randomness, so all physical events — including human behaviour — are either deterministic or truly random.

If some human behaviour is neither deterministic nor truly random then some human behaviour has a non-physical explanation, and so eliminative materialism is false and something like interactionist dualism is true.

You’re speaking about the false analogy of non-agents designed by agents to activate upon certain sounds, mechanistically triggering a limited set of actions. Can you turn the lights on with your voice without saying “Siri”? That’s your causal power of speech in a nutshell. — NOS4A2

The comment I was addressing did not mention agency. It only mentioned “symbols and symbolic sounds, arranged in certain combinations, affect[ing] and mov[ing] other phases of matter above and beyond the kinetic energy inherent in the physical manifestation of their symbols.” That is precisely what happens when I say “Siri, turn on the lights” or “Siri, open the blinds,” and so it is not "superstition" or "magical thinking."

And you don’t appear to have a consistent response to this. You sometimes appear to accept that speech can causally influence machines and sometimes you don’t, explicitly denying that my speech can cause a voice-activated forklift to lift a weight but accepting that my speech can cause the lights to turn on?

I’ve avoided and and am satisfied and for the reasons I’ve stated. — NOS4A2

Your reasons do not address the issue at all. It's quite simple; if eliminative materialism is true and if hidden variables explain quantum indeterminacy then determinism is true. Therefore if determinism is false then either eliminative materialism is false or there are no hidden variables to explain quantum indeterminacy: Therefore if we have libertarian free will then either eliminative materialism is false or free will is nothing more than behaviour influenced by quantum indeterminacy.

But, again, free will has nothing prima facie to do with the involuntary behaviour of our sense organs.

I believe you can cause the lights to turn on, yes. — NOS4A2

So the causal power of speech extends beyond the immediate transfer of kinetic energy. I can cause the lights to turn on by saying "Siri, turn on the lights" and I can cause the living room blinds to open by saying "Siri, open the living room blinds". Therefore, your reasoning below is fallacious:

So the superstitious imply a physics of magical thinking that contradicts basic reality: that symbols and symbolic sounds, arranged in certain combinations, can affect and move other phases of matter above and beyond the kinetic energy inherent in the physical manifestation of their symbols. — NOS4A2

No, humans have invented various mechanisms and lights that can do nothing else but respond to their actions, and therefore their state of on or off is determined by the human being. — NOS4A2

So you accept that the appropriate speech can cause the lights to turn on or cause a voice-activated forklift to lift a heavy weight?

That’s why I’m incompatiblist. — NOS4A2

But you also believe that we have free will and are an eliminative materialist. So how do you maintain these three positions? Is it because we could have done otherwise? If eliminative materialism is true then we could have done otherwise only if quantum indeterminacy factors into human behaviour (and only if there are no hidden variables), but does this stochasticity really satisfy your agent-causal libertarian free will? Either way, it's still the case that A caused B to happen, even if A could have caused C to happen, and it's still the case that D caused A to happen, even if D could have caused E to happen, and so on and so forth (eventually involving events external to the body).

There's simply no avoiding this without rejecting eliminative materialism in favour of interactionist dualism. But even then, interactionist dualism would only apply to conscious decision-making, not to the involuntary behaviour of the body's sense organs.

I was asking specifically in 2025 what gender stereotype do people have to conform with? — Malcolm Parry

Nobody has to do anything (other than obey the law). But there are still expectations, e.g. men propose and women take their husband's surname.

Does the soundwave have some other causal power over-and-above that transfer? — NOS4A2

I can turn on the lights by saying "Hey Siri, turn on the lights" or by clapping my hands or by pushing a button.

Or are you going to argue that no human has ever turned on a light because no human is capable of discharging electricity from his body?

You keep repeating it, telling me I’m misguided, but i have yet seen any reason why I should believe otherwise. You won’t even mention any other forces, objects, and events “causally influencing” subsequent acts.

Rather, what you leave me to picture is a cause A that causes both B and not-B, and I can’t wrap my brain around it. The joke caused me to laugh and the other guy to not laugh, for example, without admitting the reasons for the different effects, the reasons for B and not-B. I wager that is why you wish to stick to more predictable causal relations like button pushing and explosions, so you don’t have to mention the actual causes of, and reasons for, varying responses, for example if the bomb didn’t explode or if the Venus flytrap didn’t close. — NOS4A2

If the bomb isn't wired appropriately then pushing the button won't cause it to explode, but if it is then it will.

To my mind there is nothing non-physical about it. — NOS4A2

So how do you avoid determinism? Again, as it stands I don't see how your position is incompatible with compatibilism.

Is it because we could have done otherwise? If eliminative materialism is true then we could have done otherwise only if quantum indeterminacy factors into human behaviour (and only if there are no hidden variables), but does this stochasticity really satisfy your agent-causal libertarian free will? Either way, it's still the case that A caused B to happen, even if A could have caused C to happen, and it's still the case that D caused A to happen, even if D could have caused E to happen, and so on and so forth (eventually involving events external to the body).

There's simply no avoiding this without rejecting eliminative materialism in favour of interactionist dualism. But even then, interactionist dualism would only apply to conscious decision-making, not to the involuntary behaviour of the body's sense organs.

His position that words cannot cause actions in others defeats his position that laws cannot limit and must protect freedom of speech. — Fire Ologist

He's also arguing that soundwaves cannot cause sense organs to send electrical signals to the brain. It's this argument of his that I have primarily been addressing. If we can't even agree on this then there's no point in even starting a discussion on free speech.

I’ve already conceded that the environment stimulates our sense organs, simply due to the fact that they collide, and have factored it in. But that’s where their influence ends. in the case of hearing or reading, the words do not exert enough force on the body to move it in the way you say it does. It has neither the mass nor the energy to do so. All the energy and systems required to move the body comes from the body. That’s why hearing and reading are capacities of the body, and not soundwaves. That’s why I say words cannot determine, govern, or control our responses. — NOS4A2

And this is a misguided understanding of causation, as I have been at pains to explain. Causal influence doesn't simply end after the immediate transfer of kinetic energy. I can cause a bomb to explode by pushing the appropriate button. Your reasoning is a non sequitur when applied to machines and a non sequitur when applied to biological organisms.

What I believe is that each of us are the source of our own actions — NOS4A2

Which is a very vague claim. As it stands it's consistent with compatibilism and so consistent with determinism.

Yet you said before that you endorse agent-causal libertarian free will, but that is inconsistent with eliminative materialism. From here:

Accounts of libertarianism subdivide into non-physical theories and physical or naturalistic theories. Non-physical theories hold that the events in the brain that lead to the performance of actions do not have an entirely physical explanation, and consequently the world is not closed under physics. Such interactionist dualists believe that some non-physical mind, will, or soul overrides physical causality.

Explanations of libertarianism that do not involve dispensing with physicalism require physical indeterminism, such as probabilistic subatomic particle behavior.

...

In non-physical theories of free will, agents are assumed to have power to intervene in the physical world, a view known as agent causation.

You have no control or will over anything. Isn’t that so? — NOS4A2

No, I'm a compatibilist.

Your position, though, is unclear. You're a free will libertarian but also an eliminative materialist. I assume, then, that you believe that libertarian free will is made possible by quantum indeterminancy? So we "could have done otherwise" only because the applicable human behaviour operates according to probabilistic causation rather than determinism?

Your sense organs send electrical signals to your brain. — NOS4A2

And the infrared sensor sends electrical signals to some other part of the TV. But it's still the case that I cause the TV to turn on by pushing the appropriate button on the remote. Your reasoning is a non sequitur, even despite your assertions that humans, unlike TVs, have "agency" – because this "agency" does not factor into the behaviour of our sense organs in response to stimulation, e.g. I can't just will myself to be deaf (even if I can will myself to cover my ears).

I’ve already stated my reasoning. The effects cannot be shown to reach as far as you say they do. The objects, structures, and energies responsible for such movements, responses, and actions are not the same as the ones you claim they are. — NOS4A2

And as I have explained, this is a misguided understanding of causation. I cause the bomb to explode by pushing a button, I cause the machine to turn by telling it to, the fly causes the Venus flytrap to close by moving its hairs.

The relationship between each pair of events isn't merely correlation. It's not an accident or happenstance or coincidence. It's causal.

My sense organs send electrical signals to my brain because they have been stimulated. If they do so for any other reason, e.g entirely caused by internal, biological activity, then that's a sign of an injury.

So you don't accept that the fly's movements cause the Venus flytrap to close its jaws and you don't accept that spoken words can cause a voice-activated machine to lift some weight.

This just isn't the "superstitious imply[ing] a physics of magical thinking that contradicts basic reality" as you accuse it of being. It's the truth, and common sense. And if this is your best defence of free speech absolutism then so much the worse for your position.

If the action potential is in the plant, then yes, the biology of the flytrap causes it to close if and when such a stimulus happens. — NOS4A2

And the fly causes it to close. The two are not mutually exclusive. Exactly like with machines.

I can and will hand wave it until you can show that something else in the universe beats the heart. Until then there is nothing else that can be shown to determine the heart beat. — NOS4A2

You're not addressing what I'm saying. I’m saying that even if we have libertarian free will, this could-have-done-otherwise agency does not apply to our heartbeats and does not apply to our sense organs, and so there’s no good reason to say that the behaviour of our sense organs is not causally determined by some stimulus and its source.

I do not accept it. — NOS4A2

Why not? Do you reject the claim that my speech can cause a voice-activated forklift to lift a heavy weight?

That means they are not autonomous.

...

But the fact that we have to build them, program them, etc negates their autonomy. — NOS4A2

Autonomous robot.