Comments

  • Ukraine Crisis
    Of course I would be in favour of a diplomatic solution to the blockade,Isaac

    Does that mean you support Mario Draghi's efforts?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    To test your interest in a specific, actual diplomatic effort as opposed to theoretical gesticulations in favor of diplomacy in general.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Would you find it objectionable if Draghi (and/or others) would find a diplomatic way to get this wheat out of Odessa?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Translation: the world can die, as long as Putin is safe.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    I don't see why it matters. America and Europe have enough food to feed the world several times over.Isaac

    In your dreams.

    The point would obviously be to lower food prices and reduce suffering the world over. Your casual disregard of the poor is noted. As long as Putin is safe, you're happy.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    It's precisely because I care for the truth that I am not interested in your numbered propaganda items.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Whether (a) they're actually saying that and (b) they're lies, remains to be seen.Apollodorus

    I confirm I couldn't care less, then.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Do you reckon it may be possible to break the blockade?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    So why would we be bothered with your long numbered lists of lies they could say?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    They could say any number of lies.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    There was another similar call to break the blockade and get the grain out, posted by recently. It made a good case for it.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/23/we-must-stop-letting-russia-define-the-terms-of-the-ukraine-crisis


    This caught my attention:


    US-supplied howitzers to Ukraine lack computers
    (KYIV, Ukraine) — Dozens of artillery systems supplied by the United States to Ukraine were not fitted with advanced computer systems, which improve the efficiency and accuracy of the weapons, ABC News has learned.

    The M777 155mm howitzers are now being used by the Ukrainian military in its war with Russia.

    The Pentagon did not deny that the artillery pieces were supplied without the computers but said it had received “positive feedback” from the Ukrainians about the “precise and highly effective” weapons.

    That positive sentiment was echoed by a Ukrainian politician, who spoke to ABC News on condition of anonymity. However, the politician also expressed frustration that the artillery pieces had not been the fitted with the digital computer systems. [...]

    Howitzers without a computer system can still be fired accurately, using traditional methods to calculate the angle needed to hit a target. Modern computer systems, however, rule-out the possibility of human error.

    Why the artillery pieces supplied to Ukraine did not have the digital targeting technology installed is unclear. The Pentagon said it would not discuss individual components “for operational security reasons.” [...]

    A security expert, retired Colonel Steve Ganyard, said the United States had not sent the devices for fear that it might fall into the hands of the Russians. “In this case, they could not share the best of the United States,” he said.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Super Mario keeps trying...

    2 mins ago (17:53 GMT)

    Italy aims to free grain exports blocked in Black Sea ports, Prime Minister Mario Draghi has told reporters following a phone call he held with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

    “The first initiative one could begin to explore is to see whether a cooperation between Russia and Ukraine to unblock Black Sea ports could be built,” Draghi said.

    Draghi said he would soon talk to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy on this issue.
  • Swearwords
    An exception which literally confirms the rule set out in the OP:

    haddock-swearing-ectoplasm.jpg

    Writing for children, Hergé could not use sexual words. He had to invent a whole set of new insults to be able to have a character prone to swearing.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Another side is that Russians are defending what they believe to be their country.Apollodorus

    If they believed so, they wouldn't bomb civilians so much.

    They just believe that they are entitled to bomb anyone, including their own people.
    IMO it seems unphilosophical to take a one-sided view of the conflict.Apollodorus

    In my opinion, it is unprincipled not to do so.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Not sure that Draghi's initiative is going anywhere, but at least he's trying. What do the pretend peace lovers here think of it?



    Russia has not seen Italian peace plan for Ukraine
    Reuters

    May 24 (Reuters) - Russia has not yet seen an Italian peace plan for Ukraine, but hopes to receive it through diplomatic channels, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said on Tuesday.

    Italian Foreign Minister Luigi Di Maio gave the broad outlines of the plan last week and said that he had discussed it with United Nations Secretary General Antonio Guterres during a visit to New York.

    "We haven't seen it yet, we hope it will be delivered to us through diplomatic channels and we will familiarise ourselves with it," Peskov said.

    The plan would involve international groups such as the United Nations, the European Union and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe which would act as facilitators to organise localised ceasefires initially, Di Maio told a news conference in Italy last Friday. [...]

    Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev, now deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council, was dismissive of the plan and other such initiatives by the West. [...]

    Italian Prime Minister Mario Draghi has repeatedly called for a ceasefire in Ukraine. Italy's broad ruling coalition is divided over the issue of whether to supply more arms to Ukraine.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Myself, Boethius, benkei, streetlight among others have advocated diplomacy. You've demonised all. Accusations of working for the FSB, supporting terrorism, condoning rape etc.Isaac

    I've not criticized any of you BECAUSE you advocated diplomacy, to the extent that you have actually done so, which is unclear.

    None of you have advocated a specific diplomatic approach or solution.

    Vague gesticulations towards it, yes, but I haven't seen anything serious and precise. And I suspect that these gesticulations -- including your whining here -- are part of an effort to make others look bad. It's a 'demonising tool' and nothing more

    IFF you start to propose specific approaches and ideas for a peace process, I'm a taker. But if all you want is to posture as the most morally woke TPFer, don't expect me to be impressed.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    What we do here is called a conversation, not a war.Olivier5

    Thinking of it, the Putinistas may be under the impression that their esteemed contributions here are part of the war, part of a battle for public opinion.

    This battle did take place, but it's over now. It's been won by Ukraine and there's nothing the Putinistas can do about it, except cry and bitch.

    Hence the aggressive tone of @Isaac, hard to understand but logical in his position: he's like one of these Japanese soldiers stranded alone on some Pacific island, still fighting a long lost war years after 1945.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Who said anything about disparaging diplomatic efforts?Isaac

    You did.

    demonising those who advocate diplomacy.Isaac

    That was disingenous. Nobody here has ever demonised any diplomacy advocate. You are inventing your own debate, obsessed as you are with pointing fingers at other posters.

    Calm down already. What we do here is called a conversation, not a war.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    What's unethical is to spread lies. So stop it.

    Where have I disparaged diplomatic efforts, ever?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    You are commenting on the ethics of war, now? Let me guess: you think war is bad.

    What else is new?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    In any case, it should be obvious that the longer the war drags on with US assistance, the more people will die on both sides.Apollodorus

    That's what wars do, indeed. What else is new?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Of course we've been through this before. You already got your little games debunked and your truculent questions answered. Your waste of bandwidth is noted.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    I support your right to voteIsaac

    Thank you so much. Do you additionally support the right of Ukrainians to vote? If yes, you will agree with me and many others that the freely elected and hence legitimate government of Ukraine has the right and the duty to defend the lives and well being of the country's population, and to decide which peace they want, based not only on a consideration of immediate outcomes, tomorrow or next month, but also on whether or not a peace deal could be trusted to work in the long term.

    Do take the long term into consideration. From a long term perspective, the idea of "teaching R a lesson" is NOT to harm them for the sake of it. It's about deterrence. The idea is to lower the chances of a future war of aggression from Russia, and therefore intended to reduce future damage inflicted by future wars to the Ukrainian people.

    This, the Ukrainian leadership understands very well. And I think it's a legitimate war goal.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    I did. I said that I support the right of the Ukrainian leadership to decide their own peace terms when and how they see fit.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    there are two options - one is to end hostilities at the earliest opportunity from which diplomacy might take over, the other is end hostilities at the last possible opportunity, inflicting the maximum damage to the antagonist. Concerning yourself (and your rhetoric) with the damage inflicted supports the second. Concerning ourselves with the costs of war supports the first.

    Our entire disagreement here is about the morality of supporting either approach.
    Isaac

    Is it? I personally see no objection to Ukraine signing any peace treaty they want, at any point. I've said so already so I am a bit surprised by your apparent confusion.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    We all hope they win. You additionally hope they 'teach Russia a lesson'. I don't give a fuck about teaching Russia a lesson because doing so at the expense of other people's lives is a despicable objective.Isaac

    There's nothing "additional" here. It makes no practical difference if the Ukrainians win or the Russians lose. And if the Russians lose, one can only hope that they will learn a lesson from it.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    A little humility might be in order recognising it's other people's lives you're hopefully anticipating the consequences of risking.Isaac

    I just hope they win. Rest assured it's a humble hope.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    it's other people's lives you're gleefully anticipating the consequences of risking.Isaac

    Where do you see any glee? Where does this accusation of gleefulness come from?

    Maybe what you confuse with glee here, is hope.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    It would be unrealistic to expect non-partisan moderation. The moderators are human beings; they have friends here, and you and I do not feature among them.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    It's easy to be resilientApollodorus

    What is really easy, down right facile, is to be dismissive and contemptuous of people defending their country.
  • The Churchlands
    But there is no program guiding it.Hillary

    We are free, but guided by some programme alright. Instinctual fears and desires are an example of it.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Does your nastiness know limits, other than those imposed by your stupidity?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    They're still getting flattened, though.Apollodorus

    Indeed, but Russia will have to fold at some point; they cannot keep this up forever. So the Ukrainians are teaching them a lesson: a lesson in resilience.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    the Russians know how to flatten everything.Apollodorus

    Including themselves, apparently. Ukrainians will teach them a lesson.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    There was no prospect of Ukraine joining NATO. It was out of the blue.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    But that's only an extension of the BS idea that it's all Germany's and Russia's fault.Apollodorus

    How about: Russia is responsible for what it actually did? If they bombed an entire country out of the blue, they own it.

    Or are Russians inferior beings, unable to make their own decisions?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Years ago, i found myself talking with a very nice guy from the English-speaking Caribbeans, at a party thrown by the French consulate in New York. So we're in this great décord, sipping fantastic champagne, and this guy explains to me how he used to think as a kid that not only the French were all jerks, but also all the francophone Caribbeans. And the reason why he used to think so, is simply that it was passed down him by his teachers at school, by his parents, by the culture.

    And where did this idea come from?

    My hypothesis is that historically, it was the colonizer, i.e. Great Britain, that inculcated in the minds of their many subjects the hatred of the other colonizers, i.e. of their "competitors" in the "colonization business". So the French were depicted as ridicule, the Spaniards as wasteful, etc. etc., to try and make sure that British colonies would remain British... And these convenient stereotypes have been carried down to this day.

    All this to say that the colonized have in some case internalized the very racism of their colonizer.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    poitínApollodorus

    What is poitín?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    But why does he rêve something and not something else?Apollodorus

    Now you are talking. The West has also colonized the minds of folks. So the first thing to do, for those hoping of liberation, would be to free one's mind from their BS. And one of those BS idea about the West, is precisely that it's all the West's fault.

    Thinking that it's all the West's fault is the same BS as the 'white man's burden'. It's treating Europe or the West as exceptional, as oh-so-special. It's pretending that the white man rules the whole world.

    I don't care much about how I look, myself. Optics moptics.

    Streetlight here has been calling for France's destruction, by the way, in case you care beyond mere optics.... :-)