Low support for defunding police:

https://spectrumnews1.com/ky/lexington/news/2020/06/09/national-poll-finds-low-support-for-defund-police-?fbclid=IwAR2PcrEuMEk9d5RFKeWI8GiM8OeXgZObwpbU9flrb5D1OGzDQLwZj2_Un0c

"When it comes to party lines there is not much difference, with 16 percent of Democrats responding saying they support it while 15 percent of Republicans do. Broken up into races you begin to see some more divide but no race overwhelmingly supports the idea.

Defunding police has the strongest support among Blacks, with about a third of respondents saying they support it, a third of respondents saying they oppose it, and a third do not have a strong opinion on it one way or the other. That’s compared to 17 percent of Hispanics answering they support the idea and 12 percent of whites."

I also note, since May 25, UFO sightings and complaints from flat earth theorists have entirely stopped, when they were at unprecedented levels, but given the sudden silence after public support is not found for defunding the police, I expect them to be restarting in a few days.

well its a frequent mistake to think that science attempts to define truth. Science is the process of testing a model to determine its predictive success. there is no necessary connection between the elements of the model and the elements of reality. In many obvious cases, there is a direct correspondence, but when modeling the immaterial, or in scientific terms, 'abstractions,' then there need be no correspondence between the predictive model's elements and physical reality. As long as the model is successful in predicting events, it is a useful model. Most frequently models simplify descriptions of reality, such as modeling bulk matter without considering individual atoms in newtonian physics.

When predicting people's experiences and behavior, the model is describing intrinsic events, and there need not be any physioligical structure or pattern of neurons firing that correspond with the abstractions of the model at all.

It does not ultimately matter whether the physical world is an illusory manifestation of the mind, as per Descartes demon or not, as long as the model's predictions correspond with observed events.

yes lol its very green. Maybe you would like to try growing some. Alot of people have a glass with devil's ivy over their sink. It drinks alot of water so its the sensible place for it.

Im getting a passport again so I can go be with people in other countries who like me consider that the USA has driven itself insane with the desire to enable more irresponsible freedom. Have a nice day )

You're welcome. And maybe they are right. I cant see alot around me in the USA to give me any reason to care how many people get killed because they would prefer anarchy. If that's what people really need, let them kill themselves off, why should I be concerned about it further?

I presented my logic. With that, no one has been able to say it is wrong except because they say so. The Black Lives Matter movement has threatened to flatten the country if there is one more event it does not like. Fact. People will be murdered without police intervention that Black Lives Matter ignores. Fact. Also, a white person was killed by a neckhold in Texas, about which Black Lives Matter has nothing to say at all. Fact. It is a racist, terrorist organization whose actions will kill the faction it claims to defend in Minneapolis alone, by at least two orders of magnitude more than lives it will save nationally.

In Freud's model, they are real thoughts, but not comprehensible. In Freud's view, the thoughts operate in the subconscious (increasingly in the id as people mature) to produce behaviors in the individual by themselves.

In the jungian model, the thoughts should be rationally thought, but as soon as a stimulus would be expected to provoke them in the consciousness, the persona blocks the thought entirely.

The thought does not occur in the individual at all, but the thought remains, in the Jungian model, in the imagined individual unconscious, and more or less part of the universal unconscious, depending on the amount of emotional conflict that the notion would cause if it were thought consciously.

Then the unconscious provokes emotions in the individual that the individual cannot fully explain.

My actual point, before I started responding to your delusions, and which has been totally ignored, is that ~500 people on Minneapolis are likely to be murdered, who would not otherwise have been murdered due to closing down the police. That was based on prior evidence when the murder rate tripled in Baltimore, and that tripling of murder rate, was after the police were only told not to stop crime unless explicitly asked by a victim. Minneapolis is planning to do no more than send a counselor and medical evacuation team, and that, so far as currently stated, only to events that are not known to be criminal.

That means at least 350 black people will die because of what 'black lives matter' wants in the next two years.

What i said was, in my first post on the topic, when I try to raise concern about black people being killed, I am ridiculed as an over-privileged white animal with a useless education from Oxford, instead of anyone being concerned about black people dying at all.

And all of you have proven my point. Thank you very much.

As 'Black Lives Matter' has also threatened to flatten the country if even one more event is deemed unforgivable by them, it is rather uncontroversial now that it may have started with good intentions, but now is a national terrorist organization, and just like terrorist organizations do, it is exploiting naivety and ignorance as a recuitment tool, deliberately ignoring facts that are contrary to its mission, while insisting on the rules it wants, and disregarding the actual death and suffering it is causing.

And as its proponents have done nothing but ridicule the fate of those who will be murdered without police intervention, that its motives and yours have nothing to do with saving black lives, and you merely seek political power and furtherment of your own agenda, without any real concern for negative consequences at all.

Well what of pothos then, devils ivy by common name, which only requires a glass of water to grow? Where does it fit in your schema?

Thats because, there is NO data on homicides since the GOP lost control of all three branches of government, and it never had control of all three branches for as little as two years before. So its unknown. Im not going to argue further for someone who calls my attempt to share knowledge shit any further. Piss off.

I think you are really advocating the Jungian model of the self, which has three parts: individual consciousness, individual unconsciousness, and collective unconsciousness. Individuals can only choose part of their experience to represent themselves, and that part becomes the persona, or 'mask' which they prefer to 'wear.' The rest, which may or may not conflict with the self image chosen as persona, is pushed down into personal unconscious, or 'bag.' If there is a conflict between the personal unconscious and persona, the conflict must be pushed deeper into the bag to avoid emotional trauma. The deeper it is pushed, the more it becomes part of the universal unconscious shared by all people.

One should note, if you are familiar with the Freudian model, that the Jungian model does not consider 'subconscious' as valid conceptually. The unconscious comprises not 'suppressed' thoughts, but thoughts which should rationally occur, but don't.

The result, in the Jungian model, is that when many connected people adopt similar persona to each other, the resulting unconscious emotional trauma results in social conflicts with other groups that the individuals do not understand, or sometimes even recognize as happening, even though people outside the connected network of people with similar personae consider their behavior as obvious insanity.

Anyway, sorry to hear you were recently made unemployed. What is now happening is that 30 million recently unemployed people are competing for a narrower number of job opportunities. The big companies used corona to divest themselves of corollary 'dead weight' they had accumulated during a long period of expansion, and now anticipate strong profits, so the stock market has already resurged to the level it was in October last year. They will need to start hiring more people again in more numbers, because gains realized from layoffs are short lived, but it's too soon to know how long it will be before reported employment numbers reach the record levels they were previously, if ever.

What I observe, having been working on these numbers since 2015, is that there appears to be a reverse in the downward trend since Trump took over, at which time there was also a GOP majority in house and senate. The last time the GOP lost control of all three branches of government, the homicide rate started declining instead of rising. So now maybe the homicide rate started to climb again in 2016, but the GOP lost the house in 2018, so maybe they were not in total control for long enough to effect a complete change in direction of homicide, and there's only data until 2018 now, so there is not enough data yet to know whether the homicide rate changed direction or not. Because I have also been watching the trend in change of the R2 factor, and from what I know, there is not enough change yet to make spline modeling more accurate.

Here is the international data from 2010, and if you have a point to make about lead poisoning or whatever, Wikipedia now has some data up to 2016. With best wishes.

If I produce a graph you just say my data doesnt matter, so why should I make any effort to demonstrate my knowledge by drawing graphs of it for hours on end?

They correlate with political takeovers. Which is pretty well what happens in the USA when Congress and President both switch from one party to the other. It doesnt seem very irrefutable to me, but you are welcome to look at the data yourself.

If you look up homicide rates, you will find almost all the nations with higher homicide rates than the USA are in extreme political unrest and have no effective police force. Their trends are set by dictatorship takeovers, which happen too frequently for much statistical analysis of trends over time.

Thats not necessary for my purposes, because suicide rates are my control group for measuring the effectiveness of gun control on homicide in the USA, there being a great deal of legislature to prevent mentai illness records being made available to background checks during firearm purchases for privacy reasons, I dont need an overseas control group.

Ive not had a reason to do that before, all I know is about homicide rates internationally, mostly with relation to suicide and gun control.

Well thats interesting, thank you.

In California, San Jose rejects refunding in favor of ongoing reform bills in Congress, which is not surprising, because, the Speaker of the House is from San Jose.

Los Angeles has made a big deal of diverting $100~$150 million from the police to public welfare programs, instead of increasing the police budget by $735 million as previously planned. San Francisco has named similar intentions, but not stated specific results.

Minneapolis is reported to plan complete defunding of the police force and to be using the same model as the CAHOOTS program in Eugene, so I actually looked it up, and the CAHOOTS people specifically say they will not handle any criminal cases.



So if someone is in criminal danger, according to every fact we know now, Minneapolis plans to do nothing at all.
When Baltimore instructed the police only to respond to direct distress calls from victims, the murder and assault rates both tripled. I havent looked up Minneapolis' assault numbers, but I do know the murder numbers.

According to its homicide reports, it would be fair to say about 500 people will be murdered who the police would otherwise have stopped being murdered, of whom, about 350 will be black.

Really. The I provided the confidence factor for linear extrapolation from data since 2005, and as it is over 0.9, there is no need to spline model the rise and fall between 1990 and 2005. Which you should know.

Yes, but crime rate has not fallen in OTHER PLACES. Just as, asphalt melts where there are no mosquitoes. They did the same thing. They had no control study for comparison. You know I get very fed up with that ridiculously obvious flaw in many of the so-called statistical studies I see these days.

thats a good version of the melting asphalt causing malaria. Of course you know the method to demonstrate how that correlation is not causation too

That also shows your inferior intellect. According to the philosophy of science, you would need to produce a statistical analysis that challenges mine to substantiate your thesis. I already undermined the numbers you stated as proof, and if thats all you can say, then I can make exactly the same flimsy attack on your numbers.

Percentages of police unsolved crimes is not a symptom of poor police performance because I say so.

Thats what you said to me.

the FBI only provides spreadsheets for each year, so to provide equivalent evidence, you would have to find the right spreadsheet on 18 different FBI web pages, one for each year.

These are my projections for all crimes involving firearms, which extrapolates using least-squares approximation crime and assault rates to 2025 from all current available raw CDC and FBI data, indicated by color keys. I also have the FBI data on unsolved crimes, but given your attitude and insults, I am not inclined to draw a graph for you. You can do it yourself.

No I didnt, and now you are showintg the level of your own intellect. I produced numbers showing the total crime has fallen 50% in the last 20 years, and as it needs to be spelled out for you, that means your percentages deliberately distort facts. For example homicides, which do have reliable R-squared confidence levels on trends. The total number of total homicides have fallen, but the percentage of unsolved homicides has not fallen as much, so it is a larger percentage.

You went to Oxford? Fucking bullshit. — StreetlightX

I have not used any ad hominem attacks on you. I have presented facts as they are for the last two decades and made reasoned deductions. You are welcome to provide your own estimate of how many would-be criminals police actions have stopped. As I also pointed out, the murder rate in Baltimore tripled to >300/year for the two years for which statistics are so far available after the Freddie Gray riots caused the police not to respond to crimes unless directly asked by a victim. This all substantiates what I have to say, and all you are doing is calling it bullshit and now insulting my education. That does not speak very well for your position either.

On the other hand, sir, the police have been doing far better than they used to, in fact, probably too well.

According to the Dept of Justice Statistics Division, the number of known crimes fell from >4.5 million in 1990 to <3 million last year.

That means, over the last decade, there are well over 10 million frustrated would-be criminals, because if anything, the desire to be criminal, and public support of criminals, has risen substantially, as evidenced by a series of riots and the public response since the 2012 riots, for which Los Angeles last year awarded art prizes to those making faceless depictions of the vigilante heroes killed by the police, while stores were being robbed under their armed protection.

Also, frequently criticized is the number of people in prison in the USA, which is higher than any country for the last century, including the USSR. People frequently criticize that too, without mentioning that the crime rate has fallen in direct inverse ratio. As the crime rate did fall in direct inverse ratio, reducing arrests will logically increase crime.

Defund, or just reform? That is the question now at the heart of this moment. Protesters, along with progressive elected officials around the country, are demanding that police departments be defunded, disbanded and replaced by a newly anti-racist system of public safety and justice. In Minneapolis, there are already signs that such a drastic change could soon occur.

Proponents of a more moderate approach support new measures to exert oversight over police departments and regulate the use of force, but not break up the departments. Democratic leaders in the House backed this approach yesterday when they unveiled a sweeping police-overhaul bill amid fanfare on Capitol Hill. The bill would make it easier to prosecute officers accused of wrongdoing and would put new restrictions on the use of force.

Where does all this leave Joe Biden, the presumptive Democratic nominee for president? Just a few weeks ago, he was still adamantly defending his support for the 1994 crime bill — a law that put 100,000 new police officers on the street, and spent nearly $10 billion on prisons.

Biden’s campaign will probably walk a fine line on matters of policing, as he works to shore up support on the left while courting moderate voters. Yesterday, he threw his support firmly behind the more moderate reformers. “No, I don’t support defunding the police,” he told CBS News, in a similar statement to the one that recently got Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis booed out of a rally. “I support conditioning federal aid to police based on whether or not they meet certain basic standards of decency and honorableness,” Biden said.

It’s clear what sidePresident Trump is on. “There won’t be defunding, there won’t be dismantling of our police, and there is not going to be any disbanding of our police,” he declared on Monday. He spoke alongside law enforcement officials and top members of his administration, including state attorneys general, the national president of the Fraternal Order of Police, the president of the International Association of Chiefs of Police and officials from some police departments. “You’ll see some horrible things like we witnessed recently, but 99 — I say 99.9, but let’s go with 99 percent of them — are great, great people,” Trump said of the police.

But polls suggest that Trump’s hard-line stance over the past two weeks has not particularly helped him. In a CNN poll released yesterday, just 38 percent of the country approved of his job performance, his lowest marks since January 2019 — even as the country proceeds with a cautious economic reopening. And only 31 percent said they liked how he was handling race relations — roughly on par with past results to this question, and an indication that even some of Trump’s supporters are uncomfortable with his positions on racial issues. — NY Times

Over the past week, among the countless variations of protest signs carried by demonstrators across the country, one message has gained new traction: “Defund the police.” On Sunday, it was a common theme inLos Angeles, where Mayor Eric Garcetti unveiled a proposal to divert $100 million to $150 million from the Police Department’s budget to programs that would benefit communities of color — a response that many said didn’t go nearly far enough, while others said such a move would have been unimaginable just weeks ago.

San Francisco’s mayor, London Breed, made a similar announcement, though without a specific dollar number attached.

And San Jose’s mayor, Sam Liccardo, rejected calls to defund the city’s Police Department, instead saying he wanted to reform it.

How is this different from reforming police departments?

It is, in some ways, a matter of degree. Activists in Los Angeles have noted that the $150 million cut Mr. Garcetti proposed is just a fraction of the department’s more than $1.8 billion budget. In many places, however, activists aren’t just pushing to divert money away from police departments, they are calling to dismantle them entirely.

That was the case in Minneapolis, where, over the weekend, a veto-proof majority of the City Council pledged to dismantle its Police Department and instead create a new system of public safety from the ground up. The new system could follow various models that have been established in cities around the country. In Eugene, Ore., a team called CAHOOTS — Crisis Assistance Helping Out on the Streets — deploys a medic and a crisis worker with mental health training to emergency calls.

What are arguments against defunding or dismantling police departments?

Those who don’t support defunding or dismantling police departments have mostly said they’d like to see reforms of existing systems instead. Democrats in Congress unveiled legislation that would make it easier to identify, track and prosecute police misconduct. Mayor Liccardo said in a statement that defunding San Jose’s Police Department would “hurt the very people who have suffered the most from systemic racism.” — New York Times

If you think funding public libraries, education, and transport will turn a country into the USSR, then Gosh, the USSR sounds pretty awesome. — StreetlightX

I think DISBANDING THE POLICE will turn the USA into USSR,

yes. Im sure the funding could be used for better things, but I am not such an idealist. I have to agree with Aristotle. The greatest problem with democracy is defending ourselves from ourselves.

Pogo: we have found the enemy and he is us.

It would be very nice to live in a romantic fantasy, but the reason romantic fantasies are so appealing is that they are impossible.

Do you remember a thing called the prohibition, and what happened as a result of that? Organized crime will go absolutely bananas with delight at your proposal. They will love having 'public services and public infrastructure' to terrorize and extort, lol, and there will be no one to stop them. No one at all. Congratulations, you turned the USA in the USSR.

Again: the murder rate tripled when the police were told not to respond except to direct requests by victims for several years after the same thing happened in Baltimore. USA Today did an article about it in 2018, and I was banned three times on Facebook for sharing this link:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/07/12/baltimore-police-not-noticing-crime-after-freddie-gray-wave-killings-followed/744741002/

it could be reasonably argued that your position is complicit with the hundreds of murders that will result, although it seems rather obvious no one wants to think about it, so Im not criticizing you for your view, Im just asking that you take a more balanced view and consider the huncreds of lives that will be lost as a consequence of this. I talked with unenlightened, and I have to agree with him, it is a matter of balance, and the problem it seems to me is that defunding the police is a very unbalanced response, in my opinion, because it will kill far more people than the police do.

If you in any way thought the looting was wrong, it was nothing compared to the number of people who will now die because of domestic violence and orgnaized crime, the latter of whom are extremely pleased with you.

I like congresswoman Carolyn Maloney, chairperson of the House Reform Committee, who proposed all police must wear bodycams at all times. They did it in Europe, and colleagues from Oxford tell me there was a marked reduction in complaints about the police afterwards.

All I can say is that the journey towards truth is a mentally hazardous journey. — boethius

they should put that as a warning for new members, lol.

well I wouldnt have thought of violence in a classless socieity, so you certainly given me something to think abut a few days.

Locke says personal defense is necessary to protect property. Would that be considered institutional violence, because it protects a system, or personal violence because it protects an individual too?

This is for the reason that these two kingdoms maintain the oxygen-carbondioxide balance in the atmosphere, a balance that's crucial to both plants and animals. — TheMadFool

It is intriguing, although I don't share your interest in waste products, what I would note is that human beings seem to think they are the 'winners' and 'control everything,' but to me the only real victor of evolution has been the vegetable. One would think fruits are more likely to survive than vegetables, but even though animals consume the seeds, they carry on, and most notably, no one is ever nasty to a vegetable. People will shoot melons with crossbows and guns on shooting ranges, but they never shoot a vegetable, for some reason, vegetables are the only thing we seem to respect and not wantonly destroy for entertainment or to vent anger, vegetables are always ok. Everything else gets blown up, killed, flattened to the ground, and disintegrated, but vegetables just carry on blithely without having to do anything at all, they get planted, they get looked after, and no one hates them, and no one attacks them.

the ancient greeks had two concepts of time. there is chronos, the titan, which is how most the west thinks of time, organized in equal sized divisions. And there is Ion, or Eon, whereby time is organized in chunks, sometimes as long as epochs, that may be of any length, separated by significant events of the gods.

Sometimes you can talk to your probation officer and they'll reassign your community service in order to make things safer for you. — Hanover

I wasnt doing it for community service. I was doing it because the air stank all the time. It got me in more trouble later, because after six months when I finally got it all cleaned up, the school started making kids pick up the litter they were dropping everywhere, and when those kids grew up, they really hated me.

yes, I am proud to be whinging white animal with a despicable degree from a useless shithole called oxford, where I learned Rousseau said truth can only be defined by consensus, so it must be true.

That's also rubbish. I was not living next to an all-black neighborhood out of choice. The gang had alot more money than me. One factor that particularly made me a desirable target was that I was actually poorer than them. They had air jordans and guns and extremely loud car stereos I could not afford. Poverty just made me an even more despicable white animal. That cat was one of the few pleasures in my life.

To speak in their defense, they were not always bad. For example, when a social worker was to check on a family, they would dress up in different clothes, do their hair different ways, call themselves different names, and move in for a few days with the person being visited, and they were always most charming until the social security counted them as family members of whoever they were with and left. At times there were 10 people living with the person in the one bedroom flat next door, and the amount of income she got from the state as a result was staggering.

After the minimum wage going up, the house values went up alot, so I was able to sell eventually, after they were in prison, and now I have more than enough to live on for ten years, and I already paid all I need to get social security, so I will get a whopping $3,770/month then. Thats more than I earned in silicon valley as a technology journalist before the Web closed all the magazines down.

Well it doesn't matter, I'm just an over-privileged white animal with a despicable education at a useless shithole called Oxford, where I was taught, according to Rousseau's theory of truth by consensus, it must all be true. I dont really have anything more constructive to offer than that currently.
— ernestm
Is somebody here saying that to you? — ssu

I dont know, because these days, I dont bother reading anything after the first insult, so there's a couple of dozen posts on me now I haven't read in the last week here. I used to read them all. but it just got so repetitive, 'you are a stupid white animal, kneel before me and acknowledge my superiority while I angrily scold you with the chastisements you deserve, blah blah blah.'

I usually get to the first sentence and have a horrid vision of them peeing on their dog when they were two years old and hearing the same thing from their parents. Therapists charge alot of money to listen to that kind of thing.