• The Shoutbox
    It actually isn't. Because I say that I don't like or respect you and Baden is entirely separate and I already admitted some errors on my behalf. The rest appears defensive and exhibitionist over comments that are pretty normal. Am I not allowed to not like you?
  • The Shoutbox
    How is what I write trolling?
  • The Shoutbox
  • The Shoutbox
    Yeah, about that. I was hoping to take TimeLine out for an internet date. Let's see what she says. :cool:Posty McPostface

    Sure, then we'll try to kiss afterwards and pretend some actual connectedness. There is a book Romulus, My Father where the father goes mad because he fell in love with a photo and letter written by a woman in another country. He made her real, present but he lost his mind when she married someone else because the photo and letter of her only exposed the depths of his loneliness.
  • The Shoutbox
    TimeLine says the forum isn't real. I disagree. The Philosophy Forum is as real as any other fictional community, and fictional communities are as real as rain.Bitter Crank

    It is as real as we make it. :ok: Not sure why that comes across as disturbing, but I get the feeling that some people take that personally, like when you tell a religious person to let go of their beliefs. A kind of panic develops and people go on the defensive, insulting the other person's credibility to justify the wrongness of their opinion. I mean, goodness forbid I said - close to when I am departing - that the forum only provides epistemic value. Probably bad timing.
  • The Shoutbox
    It was the overload of empathy that did him in, it was too much to handle. He became a violent psychopath, because of his love. ConundrumShowOfForce

    Despite your shadowy weirdness, that does make sense.
  • The Shoutbox
    I would agree, but here I would make a distinction between practical philosophy for life, and philosophy as an intellectual pursuit. The latter, in my view, misses the point of philosophy - it analyses it without practically using it. Kind of like a business teacher at a university.Coldlight

    Great point, but sometimes I feel that they are not actually mutually exclusive but work in epistemic unity and so whether something you learn is relevant practically or not, it enables or strengthens your understanding and that can be applied in your interpretations. Think of it like this: you don't actually have static memories because as you continue to learn, your interpretations of those memories change. We learn about philosophy and we agree and disagree and start developing that independent language and how to process information and argue, but it takes time to become good men and women, as well as effort. Like a martial artist training everyday for hours on end until he reaches a point where he forgets everything he learns and becomes one with his skills.

    I think you should be compelled to what interests you. I love moral and political philosophy, but I kind of have little interest in other areas and that is where the parallel lies between applied and intellectual. You choose what interests you first and foremost and then slowly begin to challenge and expand your thoughts. You just have to trust that things take time.

    As for one of the practical purposes of philosophy, to relate it to the identity and consciousness that you raised, it definitely is clarity of mind. And that cannot be achieved without right techniques and habits that can be derived from philosophy, but don't necessarily have to be quoted by someone else. Talking endlessly about what 'clarity of mind' may mean can be interesting from an analytical point of view, but unless it fits the practical purpose, I find it fruitless.Coldlight

    I absolutely agree with you. You must find that independent route that works best for you because only you are aware of what you are capable of and what interests you; I also read Confucius and Lao Tzu to gain insight, despite their ambiguity, and included in that was film and fiction stories. If you are motivated by that primary goal of reaching that intellectual and emotional solidity, you will reach it but give your a realistic time-frame and I hope you can clarify why you feel that time here is a problem, could you explain?

    Let's say I exercise. The exercise itself has benefits to my health, but can't naturally help me avert falling ill, having problems with muscles or the like. I may have achieved a healthy body after not too long a period of exercise, but because my body and my surrounding are changeable, I can fall ill anyway. So, it's not the exercise that was insufficient, and even after I recover, I can continue doing the same exercise. Similarly with philosophy, a routine and right habits may put me on a better track to live a good life. Bad things can and will happen. The purpose of the philosophy was to only get on that right track and live well. How long that takes, I don't know, but don't think there's a time scale that must be in a distant future.Coldlight

    I am not sure if that is the purpose of philosophy. It is indeed helpful, but so are many other non-philosophical things including scientific enquiry, friendships and associates, social sciences etc. You can learn almost everywhere but thinking without prejudice involves escaping the grip of set-beliefs as that broadens and expands your capacity to think with more clarity. Forums like this enables you to communicate what you are thinking and allows others to try and verify whether your thinking is correct and this exercises a learning process, but you need to be willing and engaged and I feel that you may be disengaged from the process. All I can say is that your intent is on the right track, but your motivation is not.

    My favourite quote by Epitectus: "Since it is Reason which shapes and regulates all other things, it ought not itself to be left in disorder."
  • The Shoutbox
    I'm not sure, but it appears as though he is trying to convince you that your judgement of me is incorrect and while I may consider that manipulative, perhaps in the interest of mutually beneficial peace, we'll leave our conversations as nothing more than that.
  • The Shoutbox
    Are you sure it is me being counterproductive?

    If you don't know what that is, just google it, take a cold, hard look at yourself, and then respond here in the shoutbox.Noble Dust

    Because I've experienced multiple examples of her fucking me over.Noble Dust

    It would be manipulative if I said it wasn't unstable, Posty.
  • The Shoutbox
    Asking for clarification is not an ad hom and saying you are emotionally unstable is not being emotionally manipulative. You ARE emotionally unstable. It is clear.
  • The Shoutbox
    You have never explained how and judging by your madness, it is me that has experienced that from you. You seem to think you are justified in talking this way because it is directed to me, but you're not. You have no right and for me to say that you have no right is not "manipulation". It's not going to cut, Noble. You have problems.
  • The Shoutbox
    Thanks Posty. It really was just a discussion and it stemmed from a place of sincerity. I am ashamed that I had it as you would prefer to associate with psychopaths instead.
  • The Shoutbox
    There is no manipulation. It is a discussion that I am having with clearly a bunch of idiots.
  • The Shoutbox
    Hey Coldlight, I think that is a good thread idea. :smile: I do not think it is philosophy or a philosophy that is life changing, but rather how philosophy enables you to think or rationalise that can be both positive and negative, the latter usually because the protective mechanisms we develop as a barrier from the difficulties we have with reality slowly disintegrates and that generates a kind of panic since our identity is disturbed by a consciousness we never really understood. The result is either retreating back into beliefs - having something to believe in kind of holds you together - or re-arranging your prejudices. To reach that level of empowerment or independence takes a considerable amount of time and effort.

    As you can see from some posters here, it has probably done more damage than good. :yikes:
  • The Non-Physical
    What I meant is that the conflict with the 2nd law is only applicable to dialectical materialism but that materialists believe in the 2nd law since the only violation is cosmological; sorry, I may be wrong about what you are trying to convey. Can you clarify?
  • The Non-Physical
    Science doesn't assume or rely on any such inductive principle.tom

    Sorry, I think you may be confusing the 2nd Law with dialectical materialism.

    Bernard Williams once made a "joke" that whilst Australia wasn't the only place where materialist theories of mind were believed, it was the only place where they were true.MetaphysicsNow

    :lol: I studied near David Chalmers and asked him to come onto the old PF forums, but I can assure you that this is no joke.
  • Deluded or miserable?
    It might make more sense if you read what I say properly. I didn't deny that it's supposed to be personal, I said that you're making it too personal. There's a difference. It's personal for each of us, but you made it too personal with your talk of finding a partner, fighting injustice, and so on, as if that's what it's all about, rather than that being what it's all about for you, personally.Sapientia

    What I was attempting to convey is that we form meaning through love and our virtues - such as righteousness - and it is a natural part of the human condition to desire happiness. Cypher did not experience love and so turned to hedonism as a last resort, but I doubt he would have wanted to return back to the Matrix if the love was reciprocated, clearly by his determination that he forgets everything. Finding real love and being able to be charitable and fight injustice enables meaning that we create and gives us purpose, so it is not being too personal here. It is really a part of our human nature. The difference is Cypher chose something false or unreal whereas Neo didn't. It is just about the authenticity of our motives.
  • The Shoutbox
    Another projection that's my fault again. :scream:
  • The Shoutbox
    And we're done. Sticking to PMs as they are the only place the male herd mentality ceases to exist.
  • The Shoutbox
    No, it is not, and if I say it is you using it as a rhetorical tool it is not emotional manipulation, it is you using it as a rhetorical tool to undermine me. Nothing more. Your post is just garbage.
  • The Shoutbox
    What a waste of energy.
  • The Shoutbox
    Stop it. You are being the emotionally manipulative one and anyone can see that. You post this:

    You have been emotionally manipulative on this forum. You have hurt me. I hope the best for you in the future.Noble Dust

    Then don't explain why and then start pulling apart nonsense. Just stop it. STOP.
  • The Shoutbox
    You weren't saying anything. You just wanted to chime in because others were.

    Whether you are or not, there is that assumption that I am harbouring some negative resentment here, which caused the reaction to something as basic as comments about the purpose of threads - that only stemmed from comments Posty made - that made me speak about it. In my head, I was legit trying to convince him to stay by talking about the psychological benefits of forum based interactions. The reactions show me how people reinforce ideas of credibility within hierarchical systems. The previous two departures were highly contentious with Sap and Un, it was almost as though people created it with me.
  • The Shoutbox
    :confused: I guess it is the timing that you posted this and the underlying intent that concerns me.

    I took the day off work today only to spend it having my face blasted off for speaking about the psychological and epistemic values of forum based interactions.

    I gave up being a moderator for positive reasons. I didn't need to tell anyone here, but I told Tiff a week ago that I have been promoted at work. I also mentioned to the moderators that I am considering more senior roles.

    Me and Jamalrob had a good discussion about it and I mentioned my sincere appreciation being a moderator and how much I learnt from it. The only thing it showed, however, is just how nasty some of you actually are.

  • The Shoutbox
    Ok, so I have to ask, apparently. How? How have I hurt you?
  • The Shoutbox
    You have been emotionally manipulative on this forum. You have hurt me. I hope the best for you in the future.Noble Dust

  • The Shoutbox
    Hard to tell. Do I get any benefit from doing that if the purpose is to understand each other? Pick your philosopher that answers this question. I hope not Nietzsche.Posty McPostface

    There is certainly power in such dialogue despite such self-depreciation appearing to lack any efficaciousness because the archetype of someone "humble" means that they would not have the moral standing to be deceitful, but this dialogue certainly has the capacity for people to manipulate and control others by making them feel guilty and thus prevent others from communicating openly. When one elicits this fear in others, they are able to control the communication that is beneficial for them and thus there is no real understanding, just power-relations. I pick Foucault.

    Your misunderstanding me. It is when transcend these moral boundaries dictated by what is 'rational' or 'good' or 'beneficial' that you can really be concerned with the concern of the other. To be at the limits of one's world so to speak, and apprehend it appropriately.Posty McPostface

    I am trying to make sense of this but I assume that if you mean when we transcend social constructs of good or beneficial that we can understand and feel concerned by another, and if so, that is what I am saying. Your motivation, the intent or your Will, explains the consciousness of your decision and that confirms whether it is "you" or whether it is something psychological based on the conditioning of your environment or religion or society. This authenticity permits feeling, you want to do it, you decide to be moral and be good and that is when you actually sense or experience that passion or euphoria. It is the same with love.

    It may seem paradoxical that it is that separateness or aloneness that enables you to feel and understand love, that being alone and accepting that separation or independence enables you the consciousness and the state of mind to be capable of giving love, but it is the same as our separation from society. People think that when you follow the rules then you are doing good. Moral consciousness takes effort, it requires learning and is a state of mind and so what is "good" can only be actioned rationally, when you are genuinely willing to do good. It is synonymous with the authenticity of your will or motivation. This is completely different when you do "good" because that is what society dictates; it is conformism and servitude that stands outside of your will and motivation so what you feel is not real. Just fear, really, for breaking the rules and relief for following them. The motivation or intent there is not yours, but what you are conditioned to believe.
  • The Shoutbox
    Find me a time machine please. I'm having difficulties with going back to the 1950s.Posty McPostface

    That's not nice. Perhaps you do use self-depreciating comments as a way to control and manipulate others?

    And, that is the perversion of philosophy that I have noticed, present nowadays. It's almost as if we live in a solipsistic world of some sort to say that. And, if not, then what's the alternative, that we're purely motivated by psychological self-interest? Well, I say that might be true; but, doesn't condemn us to living reflexively without a concern for matters such as 'ethics' or 'morality'...Posty McPostface

    What has ethics and morality got to do with solipsism if the question here is what you give and what you do? In the end, you are the one being moral and so that is dependent on your state of mind that helps shape and regulate your understanding of others.

    You have proven my point, thank you.Posty McPostface

    It doesn't mean become devoid of morality, but that you shape and create your own moral boundaries outside of social constructs and religious ideals. This is more Kantian.

    I'm working on this. Surely, it's quite absurd to assume that philosophy only serves psychological needs, and besides, Nietzsche was highly disregarding of the goodness in man, and with it the concern for the other.Posty McPostface

    No, he wasn't. He was a misunderstood philosopher. He believed in the goodness of man but that we were reduced to this 'impotence' by the pressure of society and religion and that we needed to find that empowerment within ourselves to really understand what morality is.

    I also specifically said that philosophy is not for psychological needs. I said the philosophy forum is a platform for communication and this is to serve our own desire to improve our thoughts and understanding as well as our capacity to rationalise.
  • The Shoutbox
    Not when I have to pay nearly $17 for a ticketMaw

    I would pay $17 for a brain massage.
  • The Shoutbox
    This differs from person to person. It's a matter of economic utility and convenience that we use the internet, where everything is so much accessible and easier to digest in many regards than college life. Treating philosophy as a way of life, one can continue their education online past college for as long as they want.Posty McPostface

    We can form some meta-narrative that this place holds some deeper significance and that you yourself also hold some special significance in the minds of other posters here as though there is some sort of a bond, but it is the same mistake we make with all our relationships and coming to terms with that distance or separateness in a utilitarian way can be distressing to admit. It almost feels immoral. The reality is that you are here to improve you, your thoughts and your values, and the forum provides you with that medium; when you experience that feeling of improvement, when you learn something you didn't know before, that excitement makes you believe it is this place is special, when it is all you. You are the special one. People who refuse to learn end up being stuck, repeating the same bad behaviour over and over again, their ego reduces their ability to progress. It is the words being said, the knowledge being shared, the ideas being shaped and that is only based on your willingness to participate.

    I don't know quite yet. One always has to feel humble.Posty McPostface

    Why? What are you comparing yourself with? It is simply the way we communicate and think, how we rationalise and understand the external world and our place in it. Moral consciousness is a state of mind and the best type of 'humble' is really having no beliefs. You can present yourself as artificially humble by being self-depreciating, just like religious people present themselves as artificially 'pure' because of their sexual mores, but all you are creating is the Other (which now makes sense of your comments on Nietzsche). This is why religious people feel justified in their conflicts with others, because they believe that they have the moral standing and thus the authority to attack those that fail to adhere to their ideals.

    You must transcend these moral boundaries if you really seek to find that inner solidity. I see words like humble really as a type of authoritative that returns back to the hierarchical system.

    I just don't like advertising it.Posty McPostface

    Absolutely, I actually learnt when you said that about how jokes could have that underlying effect and I am now conscious of this but please bare in mind that I am not sexually active and yet I joke all the time about it. How is it that I am capable of not feeling like a weirdo given that I am still a virgin and can enjoy people's company and laugh and joke with them about such a subject? That is the type of empowerment I am speaking of.

    I told you I was bullied and I fell apart when it happened because most of the attacks were personal. Our personal space is our identity and when it is mocked and ridiculed, who we are disintegrates since much of who we are is really about that recognition from others. I advertised my personal space to strengthen and empower my self-assurance and to learn to deflect that type of intolerance. You may not need to do that for that reason, but if you are feeling impotent when discussions about sex are being made, you probably do need to consider how much you perhaps rely on the opinions of people here.

    You betya.Posty McPostface

    :rofl: Yeah babeh!
  • The Shoutbox
    But that is what brain-massage movies are all about, these action-packed adventures where you walk into the cinema and completely switch off, enjoying the images and colours like a two year old watching Dora The Explorer. There are days where we just need that and where we walk out of the cinemas in a sort of popcorn-filled mentally-blank bliss. No conversations, just getting in the car with a smile on your face and 'what do you want to do now?' feeling.
  • The Shoutbox
    It was great. If you go in with that mindset, you are going to get annoyed. Just watch it and enjoy. It is action adventure, a brain-massage kind of feeling where you really don't need to think about it so much.
  • The Shoutbox
    It was lame of you to mislead. But then if this is just a game... it’s still lame.praxis

    Stop being so lame about all the lameness. T-Clark was labelled a racist and I hold that he is not one; while I admitted that I may have misconstrued the context of others likely because of my own personal prejudices against these members - and also because I was feeling somewhat flustered at the time - I hold that the moment a person can articulate these darker thoughts, the more insight we have as to why they exist and thus is a very courageous thing to do. To be labelled as immoral often causes us to shut down and silence our thoughts, but introspection is very difficult and he did well to locate that part of his perceptions that we repress so well.
  • The Shoutbox
    That mirroring enables us to contrast our own opinions and thoughts, it is an essential part of communication and that is why we are here, no? "Philosophy" as a subject is not about you or self-development. The Philosophy Forum can nevertheless be a medium that can provide you with the platform to communicate thoughts and opinions and find ways to articulate and question what is important to you. And yet, what we do online is safer and more accessible than reality - which is why we come on here - but like everything online, we must be conscious of it's purpose.

    If I put up a photo on Instagram and I get a few likes, I need to be aware that it doesn't actually mean anything but social media is a platform that communicates some activities that I am doing and that takes away feelings of isolation from my experiences. If I don't see that, then what happens is what you said once earlier about when others talk about sex it makes you feel impotent, people begin to develop self-esteem issues on Instagram, the negative or dark side of its purpose begins to manifest. That should not be the case.There is a positive in that communication just as much as a forum enables us to communicate our ideals and principles and to try and shape them. When we forget that, it becomes some sort of a laborious task and then, as you say, you need to back away or leave.

    Hence why I respect you and believe in you and there is within me a deeper hope you find that empowerment because someone like you should have a voice. What I shun is not when people feel empathy for me but that self-depreciation that keeps you safe from the ridicule. You don't follow the herd and say what others might want to hear, the "you" exists and you are one of the few people on here with that independence. You seem to stop yourself from saying that you are good at something and even sometimes find ways to justify that you are not good at it. All I can say is that you are.

    I also wanted to point out that, the amount of sexism I have seen is appalling, and really shameful and sincerely applaud your efforts for fighting the just cause.Posty McPostface

    Thanks man. :hearts:
  • The Shoutbox
    It already has for me, hence what you take and learn from here. I have learnt that being a moderator changes assumptions that provide insight in how hierarchies reinforce credibility in a dynamical system. I also see how sexism can manifest itself in very subtle ways and that if I ever get bullied or harassed in the real world, I am much more stronger and adept in dealing with it. You open yourself up, you are liable to ridicule, but I am ok with that.
  • The Shoutbox
    Please. Don't tell me you didn't enjoy that, despite the fact that is was coming from that rotten moron.
  • The Shoutbox
    Now, there's the real Buxte. The psychopath. Did the "cut and paste" comment about your plagiarism get to you?
  • The Shoutbox
    We should probably construct a sociogram of who everybody likes and dislikes. I think we would find that most of the relationships would be "skin-crawling loathings" with only a few "love and adores". I'm assuming I would win some prizes. (Self-Deprecating humor--not to be taken at face value.)Bitter Crank

    It really does not matter unless we end up meeting in real life. You can never really know a person until then, so much of our interactions are dependent on words, but there is so much more to a person. Buxe could actually be a gentle, loving creature who is being bullied by his domineering mother and so he comes on here to release his anger. You cannot give trust here until you meet and since we're likely never to meet, well, I rely only on words on my screen. Any feelings I construct against others are really my feelings against words.

    What gay man in the gay sexual revolution isn't?Bitter Crank

    :lol: Mind-meld it is. I'll just modify since I have more options.
  • The Shoutbox
    Are you that experienced?
  • The Shoutbox
    Maybe the facts, but not about you. Although you refuse to leave it at the fact that I simply don't like you and Baden - and there is nothing wrong with that - that is really all that it is. All this mess started from you both. So, let it end.