• The Shoutbox

    Indeed there is a lot of Truth to taking a good dump, no pun intended :razz:
  • The Shoutbox

    I know, that's why I'm not a dumper Trumper :razz:
  • The Shoutbox

    Thanks! We're trying to work out the details as we speak. it may take a day or two. Certainly not interested in another politically lost election where the loser cries foul over the judge's rulings.

    It should be a prize fight! But hey, if you're into ridicule for its own sake, knock yourself out :razz:
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    Hey, how about staying out of this grown-up talk :razz:

    You of all people, I wouldn't want to moderate because of your lack of biased restraint.
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    If we have someone moderate, it will his or her role to delete (or red flag) ad hominems, strawmen, and such as well as decide (by agreed on rules) who forfeits and thereby who prevails by forfeit. And, my friend, check Google & wiki: insults are fair game in debates but ad hominem fallacies are not. I suggest you learn the difference and stop whining that my insults have been ad hominems when they have not. Anyway, at any rate, insults are almost always bad form with audiences so I won't go for the cheap laughs just to score points. I take debates even more serious than I do free-for-all forum discussions. By all means though, you go first and give me the last word, sir. I'll gladly accomodate you. :up: :smirk:180 Proof

    Let me first post here some important definitions. Then if we agree on any violation of them, what that violation means, so on and so forth. Again, I'll be brutally honest, Baden had deleted posts that were purely arbitrary based on his ego. He's dropped disparaging F-bombs, etc. etc.. . And if you need proof, I'll find them (unless of course he deleted them).

    Let me just get the basic definitions of Straw man, either/or arguments, non sequitur's, etc out of the way first...I'll post in a bit...

    All this is still germane to Einstein's observation of fanatical believers like you :razz:

    Anyway, "sucker" you'll be going down in 3: “Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, your hands can’t hit what your eyes can’t see.”

    I just the love the emotional free for all idea 180, don't you pea-brain? LOL
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    Since you will taking down "a-theism", I will present an argument for this moving target to begin the debate, right? And you will defeat my argument in turn? And so on for a limited(?) number of counters and then summations in a final post by each of us (apparently with you getting the last word :sweat: )?

    Is that what you have in mind or something else?
    180 Proof

    I could go either way, but since I challenged you, I'll go ahead and make my supposition clearer by making my case. Then you can poke holes in it.

    I don't really care who gets the last word. I will tell you this though, if there is a lot of ad hominem like I've seen from you in the past regarding my posts, I'll interpret that as you throwing in the towel (and by default I'll win). Because seemingly you have no other arguments. And in that case, it would speak on its own.

    As far as moderators, I'll monder that and look through some of the other debates and see how it was handled. To be brutally honest, this site has a bad reputation in that regard, so to find an objective party may be difficult...
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    I looked through the links, and I think that will work. For example, the links also talked about the Omni-3 stuff, which of course is illogical (in theory, transcends logic). Or even a cosmological God who is partially dependent on temporal Time yet somehow creates Time itself, etc... .

    So, if you include the concept of the Omni-3 God as being part of your A-theist belief system, then sure, no exceptions taken.

    I'm not going to show all my cards of course (and neither should you) but keep in mind, I'm a Christian Existentialist, so I will attack the most basic of belief systems, including yours. Whether its Time itself, or Omni-3 or whatever. The theme, as I said earlier, has to do with logic. And I will prove that your A-theism is not logical. But instead, is based on something emotion or some other irrelevant cognitive, philosophical, psychological, or existential phenomena, etc, etc....

    In other words, and in that sense, the A-theist and the Fundy are no different.

    Let me know
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    Perfect! Like I said earlier I'm on RNR right now so if it's okay with you let's begin our debate on Tuesday! In the meantime we can think about whether we want a moderator, or just open a thread on our own that's (voluntarily) restricted.

    By the way, just an ancillary note. If you feel the emotional need in the debate to continue with your usual ad hominem, which is certainly your freedom of choice, do you think that will strengthen or weaken your case,?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    Once again I will prove that your Atheism and its associated belief systems are not logical. To that end, here's one definition of Atheism, does this describe your belief accurately?

    Atheism: a disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    Yep definitely on both accounts I agree. There are a lot of juvenile actors on this site. But that's okay.

    Not to sound presumptuous but Jesus was persecuted for a reason :joke: And just as prophetic, this too is nothing new under the sun.
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    BTW all,

    Please don't let my challenge to 180 derail the other thoughts that were going on in this thread because obviously Einstein had other thoughts and theories similar to those in the OP. For example, his God who doesn't play dice!
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    Not only that, try to prove that atheism (as I argue it, not as you define it) is false. :wink:180 Proof

    Good morning everyone! I'm excited for the challenge. Let me just say I'll make a Muhammad Ali prediction, and knock 180 out in the third round! And remember, I'll "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee, your hands can't hit, what your eyes can't see.”

    I have a lot to say about who I would pick for a moderator (since this site is woefully full of angry atheists) but I'll get to that later with specifics.

    As I said I will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Atheism and its belief systems are not logical. With that, what is your definition you propose that describes your Atheism?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    Sounds awesome! Looking forward to it!

    Like I say I may at least start the proposal tomorrow morning, and navigate through the rules... And if we both agree to the subject matter and the rules, then let's tentatively go for Tuesday after the holiday.(?).

    But the gist of it will be I will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Atheism, and its belief systems, are not logical. Now there's a conundrum :razz:
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    Awesome yay. it's a holiday weekend but I may open up a thread tomorrow morning if I get time. Actually have your buddy Baden open up a separate category and just you and me duke it out

    I will prove beyond a reasonable doubt that your atheism, your belief system, has no logical basis. It will be based on all of the philosophical disciplines/domains. And I will also prove you will probably end up squirming, trolling, and getting back to your usual ways of attacking people.

    Just like Einstein said you would :razz:

  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    Okay great open up a thread , and debate me one-on-one about the existence of God. I wager you won't do it :razz:
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    I'm sure we could find one... You know it's kind of common sense. In other words , a-theism by definition means rejection of theism.

    Whether it's founded or unfounded is the intriguing question ... . And that of course speaks to emotion versus logic... .
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    I'm glad we agree about pantheism. I have a fondness for the Stoic version, which is said to have some similarities with that of Spinoza.

    But it seems to me you're merely saying it's likely (based on human tendencies) that atheists "throw out the baby with the bathwater" as you put it. I thought you had actual instances in mind.
    Ciceronianus the White


    Yes I did. Did the Fundy example not register?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    Well, I wonder whether there are, as you claim, atheists who are unable to accept virtuous things that are associated with Christian philosophy.Ciceronianus the White

    Sure, I think so. I think it's a reasonable inference. Cognitive science 101 says that most humans tend to dichotomize things. Sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad. Let's use a quick example of the televangelist Fundy. One might easily discount their entire presentation, their entire character, their friends and family, and so on due to their affliiation with a belief system. We've also seen the dangers of extremism and violence (alternatevely, Jesus was known to be a pacifist). Of course, in a free society we have every right to choose our likes and dislikes.

    Regardless, if you're referring to such as the Golden Rule and virtue as a guide to living, I'm unaware of anyone, let alone any atheist, who reject them because they are associated with Christian philosophy or the belief in any personal God. They may do so because they claim to be nihilists or radical skeptics or something else, but not because they have a "grudge" against Christianity or religion.Ciceronianus the White

    Disagree, primarily from my foregoing comments. It's very normal for that to happen. Sterotypes and paradigms, etc. are what they are for reasons. Hence, one can eaily default to throwing that particular baby out with the bath water. Rightly or wrongly, that's what people do... . History, and cognitive science, teaches us that. No(?).

    I think it's apparent that one doesn't have to be Christian to accept the Golden Rule or the desirability of living virtuously.Ciceronianus the White

    Absolutely Cic! No exceptions taken.

    One doesn't even have to believe in a creator God; the ancient Stoics, for example, did not but managed somehow to be rather fond of virtue as a goal (in fact, the ultimate good, essential to a good life), and didn't believe in a God which created the world and would monitor the lives of humans to see if they were being nice, punishing those who would not and saving and benefiting those who did.Ciceronianus the White

    Sure, no exceptions taken. Earler in the thread, we all talked about pantheism (as we believe Einstien had a particular interest in...). Personnaly, I like Spinoza and have always said that early church history should have allowed its teachings... . Just to be consistent, that too was a mistake in the dichotomization of an otherwise treasure trove of good information. They too, are guilty of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. (I also think some of the gnostic teachings should have been more or less canonized.)

    To this end, not to get too personal, but I live in a beautiful waterfront area wherein I not only thank God every day, I get a spiritual high from nature. One might say a Rocky Mt. High on the east coast :joke:

    Pantheism is a good thing... .
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    The provocation stuff doesn't work on me, Amen. Nor should it on anyone, considering how long you've been doing it and how obvious it is.Baden

    I agree it's obvious it bothers you by you dropping the F-bomb. So are you lying to us on the forum then?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    I've gone through the stage myself of being vocal and angry about religionBaden

    Dude! You haven't shaken it; you're still angry!!! I mean, dropping the F-bomb :razz:
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    I don't think you get it. I really don't give a fuck. You can believe what you like.Baden now, there atheist. Like I said, your emotion is getting the best of you :joke:

    Oh well, come back when you have the courage, otherwise, as some would say, put up or shut up.
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    You need to consider the broader picture outside of, for example, the bubble of online forums. For the vast majority of the world's atheists, religion isn't an issue, and there is no connecting psychological thread between atheists. I mean, consider the one billion Chinese. Almost, everyone is an atheist. Do you think there's anything at all significant in that?Baden

    Great question. Let's talk about the Chinese culture.

    Let's parse it one question at a time:

    1. Would you like to live there? If not, why not?

    Also, you're wrong about 'For the vast majority of the world's atheists, religion isn't an issue, and there is no connecting psychological thread between atheists."

    It's all about religion for the Einsteinian fanatical atheist, like yourself. And that's simply because if there were no religion, there would be no a-theism. What's more, the connection to cognitive science is that which Einstein alluded to in that your "grudge" against organized religion is what's bringing you down.

    Getting emotion out of the equation would bode well for the atheist. Try using pure reason :razz:

    BTW, I'll be happy to debate you one-on-one about atheism.
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    Ahhem...if you didn't give a shit you wouldn't have commented. Stereotypes are given for reasons. Are you too, an angry atheist?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    the chapter after the Sick Soul called The Divided Self, talks about Buddhist philosophy /discipline relative to purging anger and worry. — 3017amen
    I must concur.

    "First, Admit You Are Angry

    This may sound silly, but how many times have you met someone who clearly was angry, but who insisted he was not? For some reason, some people resist admitting to themselves that they are angry. This is not skillful. You can’t very well deal with something that you won’t admit is there.

    Yep. I agree that on the surface it might sound silly, but it's a reality for many. Cognitive science 101 says you can't fix the problem unless recognize you have one. Once again, it manifests in things like ad hominem, trolling, disparaging one's character, lack of mutual respect, so on and so forth. As the existentialist would say, nothing new under the sun there.

    Buddhism teaches mindfulness. Being mindful of ourselves is part of that. When an unpleasant emotion or thought arises, do not suppress it, run away from it, or deny it. Instead, observe it and fully acknowledge it. Being deeply honest with yourself about yourself is essential to Buddhism.Apollodorus

    Yes. Early Greek philosophy endorsed the 'know thyself' mantra which has stood the test of time. One of the greatest gifts we can give to ourselves is to know thyself. Sure it's an ongoing effort, but so is all of life.

    And it is funny you mentioned how effective it can be to control one's thoughts. In James' chapter on the Divided Self, the story of that angry person came to a victorious conclusion with him being able to positively control his thoughts about anger. Metaphorically, " The baby discovered it could walk. It would scorn to creep any longer. From the instance I realized these cancer spots of worry and anger were removable, they left me. With the discovery of their weakness, they were exorcised. From that time life has had an entirely different aspect."

    In that story, it was a freeing and liberating experience.

    Maybe atheists would benefit from taking up Buddhism or some other religion, seeing that according to Pew many of them do covertly harbor religious and other beliefs. They certainly should seriously consider it. Nothing to lose in any case, aside maybe their unfounded prideApollodorus

    Absolutely. Life is good!
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    Absolutely, agreed!!! :up:
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    The atheists seem determined to deny the facts at all costs. I wonder why this might be. Any suggestions?Apollodorus

    Great question! I have many thoughts on the subject matter relative to cognitive science. But first let me ask, do you happen to have William James' book, Varieties of Religious Experience?

    If so, the chapter after the Sick Soul called The Divided Self, talks about Buddhist philosophy /discipline relative to purging anger and worry. Specifically, a story on page 201... .

    Anyway more to come...
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism

    Does philosophy include metaphysics, you think?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    Alas, adding to our woes, Einstein didn't exercise the same logical rigor he did in physics and math when it came to religion. The world, especially his fellow scientists, would've never forgiven loose terminology in science but insofar as god is concerned, we let a lot of imprecise language slide.TheMadFool


    Thank you for your contribution as always. Examples that would help to elucidate that subject matter?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    Einstein claimed that fanatical atheists are unchained but still feeling the weight of the chains, like phantom limb syndrome or something, I suppose. Indeed nihilism might be thought of as a kind of religious phantom limb syndrome, where discomfort is experienced in the absence of the superpersonal.praxis

    Good point! What are your thoughts on nihilism, are there any good takeaways?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    The problem is when atheism becomes a form of religion that seeks to impose its views on others, for example, as in communist countries like China.Apollodorus

    That's an excellent point. Generally speaking, exclusive of extremism and such, here in the states we are free to adopt and embrace Christian philosophy which in turn, arguably, helped make American society God we trust.

    Of course there is a whole host of issues to unpack there as well, relative to violence against native Americans so on and so forth.

    Again, to throw the baby out with the bathwater is alive and well in the Maslonian world of dichotomization :razz: That's part of the unsophisticated nature of the atheist mindset...

    The other thing is that the vast majority of people do believe in God or Gods and atheists are a minority in the world. I think this makes it legitimate to investigate the phenomenon of atheism in general and, especially, what motivates atheists to disbelieve and to adopt negative and aggressive attitudes or behaviors in their relations with believers.Apollodorus

    Yep. Well said. I would venture to guess Einstein would get that. Of course we can't forget the obvious. The so-called sin of pride, exaggerated self worth; it seems Einstein was not clouded by that mindset. He was humbled by the cosmological feeling...
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    Christianity borrowed so much from the ancient pagan philosophersCiceronianus the White

    People things about there was a lot of borrowing Westerly Greek philosophy too... .

    Do you claim that atheists reject the Golden Rule because it came to be adopted by Christians?Ciceronianus the White

    No I'm not. However that's an interesting thought. I think there may be some connection, or as Einstein suggested, a "grudge" against religion which in turn somehow does not allow them to accept those virtuous things that are associated with Christian philosophy. Again they seem to throw the baby out with the bathwater. What do you think?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    philosophical Revelation
    — 3017amen

    There is philosophy, usually defined as organized thinking about a determinate subject matter. And revelation, which isn't. What, then, is philosophical revelation?
    tim wood

    Thanks for the question. The phenomenon of Revelation can occur from a variety of sources and experiences. They range from the religious experience (William James, Jung, Maslow, etc..), ineffable experiences such as experiencing the phenomenon of music, to anything considered as a novel discovery relating to creativity (inventions, mathematical genius) and that whole cognitive process.

    One thing that caught my eye is your supposition about philosophical subject matter. What is or what things are considered to be "determinate" subject matter?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    A person who is religiously enlightened appears to me to be one who has, to the best of his ability, liberated himself from the fetters of his selfish desires and is preoccupied with thoughts, feelings and aspirations to which he clings because of their super-personal value [...] For science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be… — 3017amen
    I think this sounds very much like some of the points I was making on the other thread. The atheist can't know that there is no God. He can only think or believe so. This would seem to make atheists more agnostics than strict atheists. Many an atheist may say "I don't believe in God" and count themselves "atheists" but if you press them they are likely to admit that they can't be certain that there is no God.


    Indeed. Another interpretation of his quote is that a normal healthy (exclusive of extremism, fundamentalism, etc.) 'religiously enlightened' person, gets the benefits of philosophical Revelation. I've always said, in my discussion here most Atheists seem somewhat unsophisticated in their thinking. They seem stuck or as Einstein said 'chained' , by religious dogma and other obvious baby v. bathwater stuff :razz:

    Did you find it interesting he used the term "super-personal value"?
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    That's hardly a peculiarly Christian rule.Ciceronianus the White

    "Regardless of the genesis of that trope, it was endorsed as a virtuous ideal for most humans to embrace or live by for ages. Hence, another mistake by the atheist who dichotomizes Christian wisdom; throws the baby out with the bathwater. Seems contradictory. Another sign of something else causing the anger and resentment."
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism
    One of the most famous statements made by Einstein on this topic is this: “I believe in Spinoza’s god, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.”Ciceronianus the White


    But, when you say that you think that he was probably an agnostic, you might be right, but even then that is trying to categorize him.Jack Cummins

    He definitely said he wasn't an Atheist, that we know. He was known to embrace pantheism. He of course talked about, and tried to describe his other observations, as you would say, in order to avoid having them fit into a box:

    "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man"-- Albert Einstein

    I'm not sure what you think are the "intrinsic or universally virtuous human believe and value systems"Ciceronianus the White

    Well there is a lot to unpack there. I'll start by saying there is a inconsistency in how an Atheist might consider the impact of Christian philosophy and wisdom associated with not only human nature, but in their own sense of self or Being. Consider the simple rule of treating others as you would like to be treated. Regardless of the genesis of that trope, it was endorsed as a virtuous ideal for most humans to embrace or live by for ages. Hence, another mistake by the atheist who dichotomizes Christian wisdom; throws the baby out with the bathwater. Seems contradictory. Another sign of something else causing the anger and resentment.

    Or, take the Atheist who claims everything is life is logical. Not so. Their own consciousness cannot be explained much less described using logic; it transcends logic. And so does the concept of God. Another contradiction in their thinking.

    Human sentience. Einstein discusses that seemingly quite a bit. Well...let's save that one for now... :razz:
  • The why and origins of Religion

    No. You misunderstood. I said it was cool because you did some research and it still proved I was right, and you were wrong.
  • The why and origins of Religion

    Coolio!! I'll do a search to see if this subject matter has been covered and if not, I'll open up a thread on Albert!!

    Although he certainly was not perfect, obviously he's widely acknowledged to be one of the greatest physicists of all time. Just about every physics article/book I read has his name dropped...