When they’re dead.

Unfortunately, philosophers don't get the same kind of credibility that other artists get when they die.

What disgusts me the most about the whole ordeal is that we study the works of various philosophers (whether their values suck or not), but if we ask ourselves which of these philosophers' ideals we actually use, the answer is none or Karl Marx (lol).

Don't get me wrong, none of them were 100% right about anything, it seems. People have their own extremes about certain things, but there are great paths that make very much sense to our Existence that we should already have adopted and should be carried out.

The way I see it is that Societies feel as if they cannot thrive off of these kinds of Spiritual ponderings. They have to keep the People fearful, focused on fueling endless and unnecessary wars, feeding greedy people who can already more than eat, etc. If we encouraged these kinds of conversations and Lifestyles, we surely would be living in a better time period as Eudaimonia would be carrying our Societies into true Success so we can continue on with the development of our species in a Peaceful manner.

It's an optimistic point of view, but a realistic one.

The multitasking argument is always unbelievably overrated.

Just because it is more difficult or impossible to multitask two certain things doesn't mean that it is completely impossible to multitask. People have conversations while doing other tasks like reading, being on their phones, playing videogames, etc. Even within those tasks, there is multitasking to do.

Sure, we type one sentence at a time. But we could also be thinking a multitude of other statements while we type the current statement we're typing -- onto the next thought.

Yes, there are certain things we cannot multitask on, but by overloading the subject into doing two things that they simply cannot do or intentionally making it difficult doesn't mean that humans cannot multitask.

Lol can't tell if you're mocking me or not.

Primitive humans started at a completely different period where they utilized their imaginations to the best of their abilities with the resources in front of them (and of course, the Earth's normal behavior and the element of oops). A stick to a spear, the discovery of fire, etc. As they uncovered more ways to use the Earth's resources, roles became more and more divided by skill. Hunters versus blacksmiths, gatherers versus midwives (I wish I had a better example, but it works lol) the people who did those skills did them because they were genuinely good at them [usually... at least more than what is shown now].

You don't know you're a great Blacksmith or you Love Blacksmithing if you're never exposed to it, just like repairing cars or playing a saxophone or teaching or knitting fluffy sweaters. Of course they are learned -- genuinely enjoying it and wanting to do it for the rest of your Life is another topic.

to explain freewill (necessary to comprehend it) we need to construct a causal model of it.

There are certain things that aren't as easy to explain verbally as they are by simply witnessing an embodiment of it.

For example, I begun entrepreneurial endeavors very early, but always struggled with how to sell things to people. No matter how many times I would be told to sell to people, how many ideas I would be given, it was very difficult to execute. Eventually I began to work for MetroPCS, where as a Sales Associate, I witnessed just a few transactions in my first couple days and I was blown away and enlightened. I saw how Evil they did it, but I turned it into my own way, which felt so much better. My communication skills improved because of it in the business sense and my performance showed that.

Similar to Aristotle's thoughts on Eudaimonia -- if you have the example, others will follow... and others...

Actually, mathematics is learned, but a Love for mathematics and using them to uncover the unknown is something that can be found by being exposed to them. The Passion is in discovering the beauties of the Universe, using numbers is a tool (which are irrefutably important).

Music is not "learned", but yes, it can be. Just like with any other art form. it's not the act of doing that says whether or not the thing is a Passion, it's the compulsory feeling that we were speaking about that is innate. Again, you have to be exposed to these things to even know what's within you. There are countless people in college or various professions because they were told to and not because that's what they wanted to do and there are a similar number of people who just work in certain professions just because they know they have to do something, but don't really know what they like to do. That is a fault of their upbringings and villages.

You don't know what calls to you if you've never heard its voice in the first place.

I'm sure that the post would be within reason, as it was asked for and does pertain to the topic.

One of my great questions would be what is the return like? Or is it like waking up?

Compulsions can be controlled, and they don't necessitate "design". That something feels good doesn't necessarily add or subtract meaning from life, especially intrinsic meaning, which would be objective and would persist regardless of the existence of humans as a species or each human as an individual. — whollyrolling

Yes, Compulsions can be controlled. But unlike certain compulsions like our innate Passions, whether they be in playing an instrument or figuring out mathematics equations to the smallest bit possible, those are the things that, through our individuality, make us feel whole as individuals. The fact that those Passions are being controlled with how the Educational and Vocational structures are built in the Material world in doing a lot to do nothing -- Spiritually-degrading work, and also trying to make people believe that that Spiritually-degrading labor is ultimately the way to find success in Life is, well, Evil and also completely neglectful to the pursuit of Happiness we all involve ourselves in.

Just because I believe life is intrinsically meaningless doesn't mean I believe it's practically meaningless. I derive meaning continually.

I'm not saying you don't care about Life, but you did say that you believe Life is intrinsically meaningless. Perhaps deep down to the core? Sure. But we may serve a greater purpose for whatever comes next the same way bacteria has developed into doing so in creating powerful beings such as ourselves. Regardless of that, the bacteria is not what revolutionizes the Earth's resources from its Imagination -- Humans do that with their Spiritual selves -- Soul (with the Passion), Mind (To think/have Consciousness), and Body (to paint the picture).

And to remain on topic, we still live on a different clock than bacteria.

"Passions and imaginations" are not motivators, they're compulsions. A motivator would be the thing that moves you toward a compulsion. It's also the thing that moves you toward nurturing. — whollyrolling

But the Power in Passion and Imagination that they are compulsions only furthers my point that they are innate and what we are destined to do. Those Passions align in Arts and Science. They are a different type of compulsion, though as the same compulsion one may get to lie unnecessarily is not the same compulsion we have to find new ways to explore our Passions and the unstoppable manner of our Imagination. Not to mention how great it feels to pursue those Passions and find success in our explorations.

I'm not trying to convince you to care about Life, but I am saying that Humans aren't on this planet for no reason whatsoever. And bacteria couldn't harness the Powers of the Universe the way that Humans can because of our incredible imaginative abilities. For example, coal compared to hydropower or wind power.

There is an exchange there, though. We use the Earth as a resource and it uses us. Fine, all well, and good... it stil is an interesting Journey. If we wind up not being able to overcome the Evils beset upon us by the Evil Compulsions of other Humans and thus we are wiped out? That is also Good. In the end, Earth will always be okay.

@whollyrolling

The things we perceive as "time and space" are inseparable and a requirement of this process because without them there's no death, and without death there's no motivation.

This is a pretty morbid way of looking at the Human Objective. It makes us seem as if we have no real purpose but to bother/challenge mother Earth with our Mortality. Which, don't get me wrong, could be the case, but I see that Humans have a very broad and powerful purpose, which is to harness the power of the Universe as a resource.

This is the quest, but it shouldn't be forced upon us as the current slave-like Material clock and conditioning we have been made to get accustomed to tries to do. Our motivations are our individual Passions and Imaginations and thus they should be nurtured. We could uncover so much more if we placed more value in helping people find what they were born to do as opposed to making them do things just because there's money involved and making them suffer because of it.

There are plenty of Institutions that exist still that shouldn't. They serve us no purpose anymore but they have been bailed out constantly. Whether it be AIG/General Motors or our entire school structure.

I do agree though that the subject at hand is hazy, but that's because it's Subjective, in my perspective.

(Funny little quirk: "Now" is so subjective that even the "Now" between someone saying "Now" compared to the "Now" that is acted upon are still two different moments. Going back to my "chasing of the tail" statement, especially since it supports the argument of the futility of Time in some cases.)

@Daniel Cox can you please tell us about those experiences? Yours and your friends'.

If it were only space, there would be no movement. So time exists, is real IMO. I do not see space as independent from time in this universe - things of duration 0 seconds do not exist so time seems required for existence. — Devans99

This entire statement again ignores what I'm saying. You're trying to use the same measurement to justify its Existence. Just because the "Time" something has been around is seemingly innumerable doesn't mean that it's zero or even infinite. But it is absolutely possible for things to just always have existed and that's it. Similar to how you assume that a Higher Power in God existed to create these things we're talking about. All of these physical manifestations you introduce, you will always ask the question of when they began. This is a great argument that would support the assertion that Humans created God, not the other way around.

But for things like Photons, the stuff that already was here, we did not create those things. We labeled them, sure. But they exist without us and don't need our measurement of Time in order for them to manifest themselves however they may. Whether it's the minutiae of the Earth or the entire Universe.

I'm sorry, but Time can only go so far because too many things operate on their own clocks, which makes "Time" itself Subjective.

I'm not sure what happened, but it seems my last response to you was somehow lost. Hopefully it'll show up soon, but otherwise, I have no interest in trying to re-type everything I said.

Its more I suspect things are a certain way (finite, discrete) and I'm trying to analyse the evidence to see if there is support for it. I maybe wrong... time will tell.

Yeah... it's kinda useless having the discussion with you because you not only maintain your suspicions, but you also use your own suspicions as evidence for them, and that makes no sense. If this were a school situation, you would fail for referencing your own writings even when they've been refuted time and time again by other minds with evidence.

I feel obliged to state that I don't necessarily think that Time doesn't exist, but that we have used it quite irresponsibly as a sort of leash on People. I believe you were the person who talked about — Despues Green

I don't know what physical evidence is going to convince you otherwise since your mind is[/is] already made up. Isn't listening one of the strongest abilities of a conversationalist, especially one who ponders on these kinds of things?

The human mind cannot escape from the gravity of time, if you did then that’s when they called it spirituality. But who is actually spiritually enlightened, I would argue very few? All of us are trapped within these cycles...

This is the quote I was referring to by @RBS, my apologies. Regardless, you certainly ascribe to the idea considering you used:

According to Einstein, you can slow down your progress through time by moving at close to the speed of light. So we have some control over time. So it counts as a degree of freedom in the same way as space does - you can choose how fast you move in the time dimension/direction.

Which, by the way, I strongly disagree that we have some control over Time just because we are moving at the speed of electromagnetic radiation. If anything, it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps Time would seem to slow because of how quickly we are moving in contrast to the clock. In a more down-to-Earth example, whether you move 25mph or 150mph, the clock doesn't move slower just because you're moving faster, you can just reach your destination sooner.

Again, Time is a measurement that we, Humans, created. Whether you want to use the terms "Timeless" or "Eternal" doesn't matter, the point is that it is absolutely possible for all of this to just always have existed. And you don't need Time to make that measurement, because Space is independent of Time, it only needed the Space. I mean technically plants don't operate off of Time, at least not our measurement. It is Egoistic to think that organisms that don't even operate on the same intellectual plane as us measure their activities with our measurements, they just align with the Earth's natural cycles and all things between (whether or not the Sun comes out, amount and type of precipitation, natural disasters, etc.).

Because certain things could have just always existed, it would be a very simple and constant chase of a tail to figure out the Origin of certain things' existence... like Photons. It's a waste of Time (not a pun, but it could be).

We have some sort of personal, biological, subjective 'now'. Then there is an objective, physical, shared 'now'. At least it appears to be shared - it is unclear to me from special relativity whether it could be said there are multiple 'nows'. So there maybe a biological length of 'now' - the limit of what you can sense. The question remains is there a physical length of 'now'?

Sigh. The subjective "now" is based off of our own Spiritual clocks. The Objective now is on the Material clock/Earth's natural cycle, which itself technically isn't constant. Let's not forget:

...it's Subjective only in the realm of our innate Passions which we have to find by being exposed to them and then honing in on them.... but again, that's Subjective because it's entirely on our own clocks.

With all of this I'm saying, I guess I can conclude that even "Now" is an imaginative measurement by Humans. What is "Now" to a mushroom besides the natural cycle of the Earth?

Hmm, I mean reading this thread and that thread, I feel the need to refer back to @Frank Apisa's statement that you already have your mind made up on what you want to think and you seek to carry it in your trajectory.

I feel obliged to state that I don't necessarily think that Time doesn't exist, but that we have used it quite irresponsibly as a sort of leash on People. I believe you were the person who talked about being released from the gravity of Time and that being indicative of Spiritualism. I also want to disagree with you that it's particularly difficult to attain. It's just Generations of doctrines to clean up. Gotta get rid of those pushing them in the first place. But I must digress before I get too far away from this topic....

You claim a lot of things are impossible, but only under your metric. Even utilizing your own example in how a Photon can exist without Space nor Time, it's quite easy to fathom that it is also possible that certain things just always existed. It's not always about "when" something started, in fact you asking that question furthers my point in how we as Humans created that measurement. The Universe operates on its own merit and we have found approximations smaller than what we generally measure. Time is a convenience, not an absolute need. Especially not for us (ie, many organisms operate off of Circadian Rhythms, Humans are not one of them).

Let us also not ignore the old "Matter cannot be created nor destroyed" Law. Wouldn't the very beginning of the assertion support this notion of not everything has/ needs a start date. However, its contribution to the Space it inhabits is far more measurable and pertinent, as we all have Destinies both individual and United.

So I definitely agree with the Spiritual assertion. But the People have been Spiritually unclean for an extremely long time. The definition of "Now" is extremely Subjective, though it is still shared. But see, that is the difference between Subjective reality and Objective Reality. But it's Subjective only in the realm of our innate Passions which we have to find by being exposed to them and then honing in on them.... but again, that's Subjective because it's entirely on our own clocks.

@devans99 @RBS It is unfair to align with the idea that Time is of a different measurement in God's eyes if the things he manifested are on Earth. Which means it's at the least under the same cycle (which can be measured in a number of ways -- we chose 24 hours). Regardless, whether or not you represent a day in 24 hours or some other measurement, a day itself is the rise and fall of the Sun. To try to further complicate things by separating ourselves from some greater thing's measurement is not only counterproductive, but masochistic.

However, this does allow me to further the point I was making in my previous comment:

If Time really is that Subjective, wouldn't that be more evidence that it doesn't really exist, but as a unit of measurement?

And because of the fact that events need to occur in order for Time to be measured, Space and Time are independent of each other. I mean, without Space, events couldn't occur, but Space could easily exist independently of Time.

The question 'what is the length/duration of now?' becomes more difficult if you consider it from a presentist (non-physics) point of view. Presentists do not regard time as a dimension. But time is still a measurable degree of freedom. So a non-zero duration of now still seems required for existence?

I've been reading through this thread and I can't help but to say that it's stuff like this that creates barriers of understanding.

I don't really think there is much of a "Physics" point of view, as it's not the "Physics" that tells us how the Universe operates, it's the studies by those who have invested their Passion for uncovering the unknown and we've labeled the attempts in this or that particular way under that umbrella term.

I guess a "simpler" way of putting what I'm saying is that you can't just "invalidate/modify" (not really the words I'm looking for) Objective Reality with weighing the perspective of another group of Thought just because their Perspective differs.

You said that Time is a "measurable degree of freedom". Freedom from what? That is an entirely subjective topic.

In my perspective, Time does not actually exist, but is a useful measurement for keeping up with the physical manifestations of our Spiritual Passions. Hence:

"...anything that is cyclical is naturally repetitive and that they all will have a centrifuge"

The repetitive nature of the Material world is the proof in itself that it is ultimately unimportant. Or at least not to invest very much focus on unless to innovate, if the idea can be. But especially if the idea (ideas are Spiritual in nature....) can't be, there is no more point in investing much more into it until it is no longer useful to us Spiritually.

...

Back on the concept of Time, if we take a look at a clock, it is like a metaphor for our own leash. Its cyclical nature (repetitive) and how we try so hard to please those physical manifestations which are in essence built around doing a lot to do nothing.

Don't get me wrong, Time is important. But I feel we've been using it so irresponsibly. Insects, fungi, cyanobacteria, etc. follow along circadian rhythms which are innate. We are far more flexible and imaginative than that.

The "right" to die deals with whether or not the ability to die is given to us. Which implies that the State itself has a hand in whether or not we can be alive in the first place. That means that some external figure that isn't the individual is meddling in another person's decision(s).

We already can see even in today's Time how much the State meddles in minuscule things it has nothing to do with and shouldn't.

Dying IS a duty. It is inevitable. Even throughout the course of being alive itself, we lose our faculties at different rates, there are predicaments and circumstances we wind up in; the former being the reason why Immortality is ultimately overrated.

Humans have an incredible ability to procreate. So even in the case where we have People who decide to end their family Legacies, it matters none to what I perceive as the overall goal of Humanity, which is to harness the Powers of the Universe/Multiverse as a resource. We're supposed to die, the forthcoming generations and their manifestations are symbols of Evolution. How else would we have gotten this far?

I say, if someone wants to die, they should be at their own Liberty allowed to end their own Life. Yes, there are countless people who claim they wish they were never born, but wouldn't dare make even the slightest attempt at putting themselves in an uncertain situation that could cost them their Life.

I agree we should be Optimistic as Good always prevails over Evil (even though many people struggle with getting out of their own versions of Hell), but People.should be allowed to suffer independently of the State or their "Emotional Family/Friends". No one matters but the individual in this case, so if anything, asking them questions is [almost] always an interesting road for their thought processes.