Zelensky getting caught laundering money is nothing new, — boethius
are you calling this Guardian article, the Pandora Papers and ICIJ Russian propaganda? — boethius
Otherwise why would we assume new allegations of the same is Russian propaganda? — boethius
Honesty would be taking into account more Ukrainians fighting do not do so voluntarily than volunteer, — boethius
and therefore the "Ukrainian soldiers' will to fight" is not an argument as it is not willing for most cases — boethius
You're a master at closing the door to communication yourself. Both you and Bobo have had closed doors several pages ago and have just been talking to a screen and projected caricature of each other. And thus really only talking with one's self. — Vaskane
His best friends just bought 75 million worth of yachts for example, to add to his collection of European and African property. — boethius
People here could have proposed a way Ukraine could "win" on the battlefield; no one could — boethius
And as for regular Ukrainians, this simplistic model that they are all just valiantly rushing to the front to defend Ukraine! and happy to lay down their lives on principle, is completely stupid. — boethius
The crybaby position references non-Ukrainians cheerleading Zelensky from a far without skin in the game and approving of or creating apologetics for NATO's policies that led to the war. — boethius
At some point, you should lend some credit to the person who makes correct predictions: — boethius
I predicted not only would it not be easy but Ukraine would not make any progress at all. — boethius
It's only circular because at some point you understand that Ukraine is not going to reconquer all the territory (not that that would end the war anyways, as I explained at length at the start of the conflict) and that therefore the only resolution to the conflict is a diplomatic one. — boethius
We then discuss the diplomatic and political problem Ukraine has (that it turned down a far better offer at the start of the conflict — boethius
has the political problem of Ukraine fighting to a far worse negotiating position. — boethius
You even have no problem agreeing that Ukraine had more leverage at the start of the conflict than it does now, just quibbling over exactly which day — boethius
Although you're wrong about making a negotiation position public never being a good idea — boethius
Not willing to accept the implications of what you yourself agree to, you retreat into your habitual way of resolving cognitive dissonance in just inventing whatever would be convenient if it was true and stating that as a fact. — boethius
you simply invent that Ukraine is actually doing well in the war — boethius
Ukraine cannot retake the lost territory and that is clear now even to Zelensky and the whole west.
Ukraine cannot win a war of attrition against Russia. — boethius
Continuing to fight therefore brings Ukraine further away from any sort of "victory", destroys remaining leverage, and brings Ukrainian military closer to collapse. — boethius
Last year Russia needed to survive sanctions, needed to keep domestic population behind the war, and needed time to mobilize and train hundreds of thousands of additional soldiers, ramp up military production — boethius
and that offensive capacity (that would be useful to have now in a defensive strategy) is mostly destroyed — boethius
Air defence is not working fine, as Russia can now approach the line of contact close enough to drop glide bombs regularly. — boethius
The only root to a negotiated settlement is the collapse of the current Ukrainian government and essentially just accepting whatever the Russians want. — boethius
That's your view, I guess.
Their 'ultimatum' was surprisingly generous, considering what the western propaganda machines have claimed the Russians' goals in Ukraine were.
The peace deal was all but finished when Boris Johnson flew in to announce Ukraine would not be signing any deals with the Russians.
Funny, that. Imagine having Boris Johnson of all people tell you to continue fighting a war - a political walking corpse and who was obviously sent as an errand boy to take the fall in case things went sour, since his political career was already a train wreck.
What a bad joke this Ukraine debacle is. — Tzeentch
The key is to navigate risk. — boethius
Russia act vis-a-vis the risk — boethius
If Nord Stream was opened, the situation in the Donbas remained unsustainable in the long term, but it seems to me extremely likely Russia would not have invaded in 2022, since it was pretty clear (certainly that's what the Western media understood) that Russia was amassing troops as pressure to open the pipeline, and refusing to open the pipeline significantly angered Putin and the Kremlin and invading Ukraine was one outlet for that anger. — boethius
So there are other factors, but I would argue that military action in Ukraine was inevitable as long as Ukraine has joining NATO literally in their constitution and a conflict in the Donbas, and 3 years is reasonable time frame to prepare an operation as big as the invasion of 2022. In the meantime there's the pandemic as well as the completion of the pipeline. — boethius
Ukraine declaring it is going to join NATO, and NATO reciprocating by saying Ukraine is going to join NATO and cooperations and partnerships of various kinds and having NATO training and "advisors", are things that will clearly provoke Russia into invading Ukraine. — boethius
The point is, yes, trying to establish the 2010-2014 status quo, or even the pre-2019 status quo where joining NATO wasn't explicitly a constitutional goal. — boethius
Of course, by 2022 there is a significant "extreme nationalist" (some Nazi's, some just super nationalists) contingent in Ukraine that rather war with Russia than peace or any sort of compromise. The Russian language repression being one other clear provocative example of the power of the nationalists. — boethius
simply has a death wish. — Count Timothy von Icarus
What immediately precipitates the full scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia is Ukraine amassing troops of their own to finish off the separatists. — boethius
If Ukraine remained technically neutral, it's only because it has no allies.
Russia's demands was a commitment to neutrality — boethius
Obviously if you declare your intention to join a military alliance and that military alliance not only creates all sorts of military partnerships and support but also reciprocates and publicly declares they'll let you in oh ... some day, that is not neutral.
If "neutrality" language is left in law or the constitution it is clearly irrelevant. — boethius
We were discussing what Zelensky could do to avoid the invasion in 2022.
Obviously Ukraine has no commitment to neutrality in 2022 whatsoever, literally has joining NATO in its constitution, and my point is committing to neutrality may have avoided the war.
More importantly, as Ukraine had and has no allies, committing to neutrality costs Ukraine nothing. — boethius
Which, as you may again note if have that reading comprehension you covet, is not neutrality, but a compromise position of keeping the status quo. Which, as you note, the status quo did not cause Russia to invade, or even make serious threats such as amassing troops on the border.
The status quo changes when the legally elected president who represents the above compromise position is illegally removed in a coup, by anti-Russian forces explicitly backed by Nuland and the CIA. — boethius
The adopted children that already exists are still evaluated under the idea of probability of harm in the future. It becomes an irrelevant factor if they exist or not because both focus on the probability of future harm. A child that isn't born yet will still be a child and we can still evaluate if a probable child will have probable harm or not. — Christoffer
It is primarily to give more support for the sake of children's well being, but you still need to acquire a license and those who are obviously evaluated as having problems cannot get one. For instance, if the psychological evaluation finds that one of the parents or both have violence tendencies, that can block a license.
We can also propose a license system, either as included in this, or it's own, that's basically the same as a driver's license. Meaning, you need to go through education on child care, take tests and pass it in order to become a parent.
Such a system would never block anyone to become a parent, outside of the most extreme cases, and would just push for becoming more educated in the needs of a child. — Christoffer
At the moment we have education for parents, but it's voluntary... make it mandatory instead. You have to pass tests that makes sure you know what it means to take care of a child and you have everything available to you for educating in the matter.
Think of it as an education degree for parenting. It's not an advanced course, but its enough to ensure that everyone becoming a parent has a knowledge foundation that is necessary to at least mitigate the risk of malpractice. As it is right now, anyone can become a parent, regardless of knowledge of child care. Which means that even among the ones who got good intentions, they can absolutely traumatize a child anyway because of a lack of fundamental knowledge. — Christoffer
This knowledge is also part of the increasing child psychology knowledge base, so with continuing research and science on the subject, we will continue to fine tune the well being for all children, at least mitigate the unnecessary harm that comes out of the naive pretense that all people understand what it means to handle a child over the course of many years. — Christoffer
The number of people who are unknowing and ill-equipped to take care of a child is larger than people realize. Even people who seemingly had a good childhood, might not have had one, as we've seen in statistics from adult psychology addressing childhood traumas affecting adult lives.
A mandatory education for all parents can mitigate some of that and at the same time spot unseen patterns of bad parenting by interacting with parents undergoing this education. — Christoffer
Why is this an issue? As a comparison, we do this for adoption parents. They have to prove to social services and go through a psychological evaluation before being approved to adopt a child. Care to explain the difference? — Christoffer
You are making these fallacies based on your own extreme fantasies about what such a system would imply, without engaging with the concept in a philosophical manner. No it's not automatically totalitarian, that is an emotional reaction to the concept and not an honest overview of its potential when built out as an actual infrastructure.
Changing society like proposed isn't a simplified "install license, end problems", it's large infrastructural change for social care and child care systems. It would require that a lot more tax is spent on the well being of children, out of the concept of deterministic strategies to prevent harm towards children, prevent childhood trauma and prevent future crimes that can result in such experiences for children.
Such change in resources throughout society mitigate much the needs for "after the fact" handling of crime and childhood traumas and harm. Some people with childhood trauma and damage have had their whole life being affected by it. Even among considered "balanced and psychologically healthy" adults there are childhood traumas that affect their ability to form relationships or function well in social structures. — Christoffer
Interesting yeah, this seems even more deterministic actually because there are enough background sameness to basically steer the trajectory a general way. But then can there ever be huge enough event to cause significant change? And conversely, how many little events add up to the kind of intransigent determinism you are proposing? — schopenhauer1
Of course, we recognised the sovereignty of Ukraine back in 1991, on the basis of the Declaration of Independence, which Ukraine adopted when it withdrew from the Soviet Union. The declaration had a great deal of good written there, including that they will respect the rights of national minorities, Russian language speakers (Russian is specifically mentioned there) and other speakers. That was later reflected in the Ukrainian Constitution. One of the main points for us in the declaration was that Ukraine would be a non-bloc, non-alliance country; it would not join any military alliances. In that version, on those conditions, we support Ukraine’s territorial integrity.
We have no problems with the territorial integrity of Ukraine. It was destroyed by those who carried out and supported the coup, whose leaders declared war against their own people and began to bomb them.
Ukraine is a de facto neutral country, with zero allies that comes to its aid when Ukraine is invaded, therefore it is of zero benefit to Ukraine to not offer neutrality in exchange for peace. — boethius
As Blinken explained in public long before the war, if to do what you say and arm Ukraine to the point of having a credible deterrent to Russia, then Russia will simply match that capacity and if you continue Russia will invade before the situation got out of hand (from their point of view) which is exactly what has happened. — boethius
If Ukraine "bent the knee" and committed to neutrality — boethius
In the case of Ukraine, what is clear is that the attempt to not-be-neutral would with near certainty result in the present war, and the strategy of fighting a war from a weaker position so as to avoid fighting a war in the future makes no sense. — boethius
You say it was all this Girkin and Russian mercenaries, and there was no popular support. — boethius
Does putting "independent group" in quotes meant to establish this was only Russian mercenaries with zero popular support? — boethius
Zelensky has zero political or military experience — boethius
I do not claim that if Ukraine committed to neutrality we know Russia would not have invaded.
My claim is that committing to neutrality would have cost Ukraine nothing. — boethius
Receiving arms from third party is does not compromise formal neutrality; neutral countries can still receive arms. — boethius
My main criticism of Zelensky is walking away from peace negotiations entirely, making public ultimatums making public declarations that would be humiliating to walk back, and then committing to further warfare without any realistic military means to achieve military aims. — boethius
I'm asking you why would it matter what the Russian terms were if Ukraine goes onto lose the war? Any terms at the time, such as cease fire in place, would be far superior to losing the war. — boethius
Are you going to substantiate that? The wikipedia article simply describes the talks at that time as being based on 15 points, not some sort of draft treaty presented by Ukraine. — boethius
WTF are you talking about? — boethius
Ok, well the way international law works is that the Russian action are de facto legal if there's no security council resolution that says otherwise; that's how international law is setup.
The security council is the authoritative body that has the power to interpret how international law applies to a given situation, and before and until that happens all legal arguments about the situation are merely legal briefs and opinions and are not legal facts.
What the Russians are doing in Ukraine is perfectly legal under international law until there is a security council resolution that says otherwise. — boethius
So yes please, please source the Igor Girkin movement to support your claim that there is and never was any popular support for the separatists within the separatists territory. — boethius
I do, however, see that if what you claim is true, and Girkin is the key to everything, then Ukraine could have easily won this conflict all the way back in 2014: — boethius
This was the conversation in the Western media at the time. Russia was experiencing defeats and therefore could be pressured into a peace favourable to Ukraine ... though of course needing some compromise so that Russia accepts. — boethius
Zelensky definitely is a stupid crazy person — boethius
But if you are conceding that NATO had just-cause in bombing Libya because civilians "might" get shelled, then certainly it follows Russia has just cause in invading Ukraine due to shelling of civilians in the Donbas .. — boethius
Now, "everyone" at the time in Western media, and also on this forum, discussed under the assumption that Russia would accept peace (that would include withdrawal) with some for of the three main points they kept repeating were critical to them: recognition of Crimea, Ukrainian neutrality, and some status change in the Donbas, where considered the key elements (Ukraine would need to accept) to arrive at a peace. — boethius
If you want believe the peace deals that are reported by various parties as getting "close" and Zelensky himself saying terms seemed more realistic, was all either misinterpretation or then Russian bad faith, there's no way to completely prove otherwise. — boethius
But again, how is a cease fire in place at the time not preferable to losing the war? — boethius
So if all this discussion is just to come to the fact that Ukraine's refusing neutrality before the war, and refusing Russian demands after the war broke out, is only reasonable (certainly at least in hindsight) if Ukraine can ultimately "win" (at least on the glorious nationalistic territorial dimension). — boethius
First, you completely ignore that obviously Russia's offer before the invasion even took place would require no withdrawal.
Had Ukraine accepted neutrality before the war, the war may not have happened, and Russia may not have seen enough sufficient cause to invade given the main point of contention was resolved. — boethius
In other words, Donetsk and Lugansk would not be annexed by Russia and there's no mention of the other regions Russia occupied in the demands as Russia would be giving them back in such a deal. — boethius
the correct move for Ukraine would be to make a counter offer that explicitly clarifies those points. Which Ukraine never does — boethius
after Boris Johnson flies to Ukraine to convince Zelensky to not make peace). — boethius
Had Ukraine done that, clarified the points you are now equivocating on, and the Russia clearly refused such a peace deal; ok — boethius
Obviously there were chances to negotiate peace at various times leading up to and during the conflict, starting with the Minsk accords, the main point of contention being NATO, and Ukraine consistently chooses to push for joining NATO rather than entertain accepting neutrality.
The war happens. If Ukraine can't win, and instead loses and significant amount of Ukrainians are killed, Ukraine depopulated through people fleeing the conflict, and the economy destroyed and furthermore far more of the coveted territory is lost in battle, clearly those opportunities for peace were preferable, and trying to join NATO did not help Ukraine one bit (just a provocation based on some foolish principle of "having the right to ask to join a club that doesn't want you" without any benefit whatsoever). — boethius
What does it matter if Russian terms were even worse for Ukraine than what seemed to me, everyone on the forum, and the mainstream Western media, if your interpretation is correct ... but Ukraine loses anyways? — boethius
Because demanding sources of points that you don't honestly disbelieve is just bad faith. — boethius
That's exactly how it works: imprisonment within Ukrainian territory and forced conscription to be forced into military service (i.e. taking away people's right to self determination for themselves) in the name of self determination for the "glorious nation". — boethius
you offer zero citations or evidence or even plausible arguments. — boethius
Separatism is based on extra-legal moral principles, — boethius
Again, zero sources, which immediately following demanding sources for me to 100% clarify the sources I already cited, is extreme bad faith.
If you don't want to bring your own sources to the table, then it's complete idiocy to demand others provide sources (on-top of the sources they've already provided). — boethius
Again, just inventing things that would be convenient if it were true.
Are you just repeating myths that circulate in "pro-Ukrainian" echo-chambers on Reddit or Facebook and simply assuming they must be based on "something" or do you just do cursory research to get a vague impression of what you're looking for? — boethius
And, obviously, the Russian offer before the war would have occurred without any Russian forces outside of Crimea. — boethius
You're also directly contradicting the Reuters article I cited, which clearly describes an offer that it not a ceasefire in place, — boethius
"Everyone" in the context refers to members of the forum commenting on events and also mainstream media, such as Reuters. But, even so, can you even provide evidence of "someone" understanding the Russian offer different at the time? — boethius
Again, just thinking backwards to making things up that would be convenient to be true.
"Everyone" in the context refers to members of the forum commenting on events and also mainstream media, such as Reuters. But, even so, can you even provide evidence of "someone" understanding the Russian offer different at the time? — boethius
Where do you get that Russia was only ever offering a ceasefire in place? Especially before the 2022 war even occurred? — boethius
Sure, but that is simply agreeing to the main point of contention here: that whatever terms Ukraine was offered, it would have been better to accept compared to losing the war — boethius
The problem Ukraine gets into is that it repudiates negotiations and commits itself to achieving a better negotiation position by military means. — boethius
Russia obviously can demand this, and NATO could agree to it and likewise Ukraine could agree to it. — boethius
Most previous wars were at least fought over what countries did actually possess before the war started. — boethius
It's not easy at all, first language and cultural repression and shelling the separatists are crimes against humanity committed by overt Nazi's — boethius
but second it is a completely legitimate political action to seek separation after the coup in 2014. — boethius
and I honestly don't see much of a problem waging a war against said Nazi's. — boethius
But even without the Nazi's, if Ukraine has a right to self-determination so too the separatists. — boethius
Who doesn't have a right to self determination is all the Ukrainian men that cannot leave Ukraine and can be forced to fight by the government ... and why? To protect the right of self determination of Ukraine? — boethius
Or are you saying they lacked popular legitimacy in the Donbas ? — boethius
The separatists clearly have a right to self defence and if that requires asking Russia for help and Russia wrecking the rest of Ukraine to protect the separatists, seems perfectly legal to me. — boethius
The social contract of being in a larger political unit is that the rules are followed. A president was elected to Ukraine and the rules are the president has certain powers and serves a certain term; those rules aren't followed, social contract is broken, perfectly reasonable and legitimate (and therefore just cause) to then secede from an illegitimate national government. — boethius
The justification for wrecking Libya was that civilians "might" be shelled. — boethius
Ukraine was anyways in the separatist regions territory, if Ukraine was of good will about the accords (and had the sense to want to avoid a larger war with Russia) then they would have withdrawn to positions where clashes were no longer possible — boethius
You're claim was that offers in serious negotiations aren't made public, to support your previous claim that "we don't know much about" the negotiations and what, if anything, Russia was offering, which you now just casually move the goal posts to this entirely new claim, that basically it maybe unwise to make your position public. — boethius
I addressed this in the beginning. Given any theory of truth, whether it assumes the truth criterion is a metaphysical representation or otherwise, its conception and operation depends on a mind. — Sirius
Ask yourself. Does it make sense to say X statement was always true, but it never always existed. How can a statement be true and not exist ? And if a true statement an an evaluation must exist, it will exist in a mind — Sirius
True statements are a mental evaluation, but what they represent isn't. A mindless world may have truths, but we cannot speak of them, which is no different from not having any truths.
Let's suppose there is no God. We can do without him actually.
Was "Big bang just occurred" a true statement when the big bang occurred ? Here is the tricky part. We can say it is a true statement from an evaluation in our time w.r.t the time when the big bang occurred, but it involves us taking our mind to the time when the big bang occurred CONCEPTUALLY. But even if we didn't exist, It is neccesary condition for this universe that there be a mind in the relative distant future which can evaluate the conditions of the past when there were no minds.
How is this possible ? — Sirius
As you know from special relativity, the past/present/future exists on the same ontological plane. So when the big bang occurred, we were thinking of it having occurred in the future from the refrence of big bang. But even if we didn't exist, there must have been someone in the future who was thinking of the big bang. As we have eliminated God, we will need to take this universe to be infinite to have all the minds represent the infinitely many true mathematical statements and have them evaluated.
To sum it up, the existence of a mind is a neccesary condition for the existence of neccesarily logical truths, but not a sufficient condition. — Sirius
I never claimed all contingent truths must exist, only logically neccesary truths. I have already given reasons why mathematical truths can not depend on material representation ( refuting logicism ) — Sirius
If a statement is logically neccesary, then it exists irrespective of whether there is a physical world or not, since it isn't about the physical world. — Sirius
Here is a proof of the existence of neccesarily logically true statements and a mind :
Definition :
Existence for neccesarily true statements means "X is neccesarily" exists as an evaluation.
If it doesn't, then we can't say "X is neccesarily true", but X is neccesarily true, so an evaluation neccesarily exists. But if an evaluation neccesarily exists, a mind neccesarily exists for the evaluation. — Sirius
If your enemy isn't abiding by the Geneva Conventions, why should you? Does a nation have a moral duty to take the "high ground" in a conflict? — RogueAI
Even if it increases their chances of losing the conflict? What about if their existence is truly at stake? — RogueAI
If the Axis had used chemical weapons, wouldn't the Allies have been justified using them in retaliation? — RogueAI
Or suppose Germany had gone through with Sea Lion and invaded Britain after the fall of France. Would the Brits have been justified in using gas against the German invaders? Doesn't the British high command have a duty to its people to fight a Nazi invasion with every means at their disposable? If the British generals decide that chemical weapons will give them a decisive edge against Nazi soldiers, don't they have a duty to use those chemical weapons in defense of their citizens? — RogueAI
Can you point out the specific flaw. Saying the conclusion doesn't follow isn't helpful. — Sirius
4. All neccesarily true statements exist as cognitive content (from 1,2) — Sirius
I've provided accounts of the people directly involved, accounts of people indirectly involved, — Tzeentch
reports by prominent UN and NATO representatives, etc. — Tzeentch
This is why you're not taken seriously. You don't seem to realize that reality won't budge any further to accomodate your narrative. — Tzeentch
This is why discussion with you oompa loompas is pointless. — Tzeentch
This was Russia's offer as reported at the time. — boethius
But that's just straight up rewriting history. Everyone at the time understood the Russian offer to be pulling their troops back to Russia and Crimea if the offer was accepted. — boethius
There was huge amount of analysis at the time; — boethius
the three main points are neutrality, recognizing Crimea and some sort of status change in Donbas (but not integration into Russia, which has happened since if you haven't noticed). — boethius
but it was understood Russia was offering to pull their troops from the rest of Ukraine including the Donbas (it's not really a "retreat" if it's part of a peace agreement). — boethius
which is that Ukraine had far more leverage to try to negotiate the best deal they could ever get back then compared to now. A point you don't seem to agree with. — boethius
it strengthens your diplomatic position to accept an offer that is then reneged on — boethius
Well then, what "good news" do you even see in even mainstream Western media? — boethius
Well, at the time, the West was framing this as giving Putin what he wants rather than punishing him for breaking the "rules based order" over annexing Crimea and the West refused to negotiate directly with Russia to try to come to a larger deal over European security architecture as a whole and so on. — boethius
For a while talking heads and social media were continuously repeating that "Ukraine has a right to join NATO" and that "Russia can't demand Ukrainian neutrality as Ukraine is a sovereign nation" as justification for repudiating any peace agreement, which are absolutely moronic points — boethius
We can come back to this point, as no one so far as actually provided an argument of why the Ukrainian cause is just. — boethius
one has answered the question of how many Nazi's in Ukraine would be too many Nazi's — boethius
explain why the Donbas separatist cause is not just on exactly the same grounds as the Ukrainian cause of "self determination — boethius
even if we ignore that issue then why shelling civilians was justified — boethius
reneging on the Mink accords was justified. — boethius
What are you talking about? Offers in serious negotiations can and often are made public. Making an offer public can put further pressure on the counter-party if the offer is clearly reasonable to take, — boethius
Russia's conditions for a peace settlement were made public — boethius
This is exactly what "the West" (officials, mainstream media, zillions of commenters on social media) was insisting on, that any peace (in which Putin keeps Crimea and Ukraine accepts neutrality, which was the only deal the Russians would consider accepting) would be a win for Russia: they wanted Ukraine neutral, they want recognition of Crimea by Ukraine, so if they get that then they "win". — boethius
My diagnosis of your philosophical disease is that you've, until now, happily swallowed what Western media was selling you about this war — boethius
their cause must be just — boethius
If Russia's offer was "not quite good enough" ... then why don't we have a Reuters citation of Ukraine's counter-offer, such as neutrality and keeping the Donbas with more limited cultural protections for Russian speakers (since that's important for "some reason")? — boethius
However, the main issue is not "what exactly" Russia was offering, but that Ukraine walks away from negotiating, makes absurd ultimatums public and so on, rather than strive to get the best deal they can when they have maximum leverage. — boethius
The fact is there was a peace deal on the table in March / April, in which Ukraine reneged on their plans to join NATO, and Russia returned all the territory it occupied at that time. This deal was blocked by the US and Britain. — Tzeentch
The deal was blocked because the US knew it would be seen as a Russian victory. — Tzeentch
This is a good point. You’re forgetting two things, though: first, I’m not trying to justify Russia’s actions. In fact I’ve condemned them all along. I think it’s both morally wrong and strategically stupid, as they’ve now pushed even more countries into the hands of the US. — Mikie
Secondly, when analyzing the justification given by the aggressor state, you look at the evidence. The justification for invading Iraq (connections to 9/11, weapons of mass destruction, etc) turned out to be completely bogus. And the goal wasn’t to conquer Iraq anyway. The actual reason, in my view, was economic.
So in Russia’s case, is there any evidence that NATO is a major factor? Yes, there is. Doesn’t make it correct or rational. Furthermore, it doesn’t make it the only cause. — Mikie
Saying the US invaded Iraq because the US is evil and George Bush is a madman wouldn’t be a strong argument. Likewise, rejecting that thesis wouldn’t justify the actual (well supported) reasons. — Mikie
The Gulf War campaign had about a million coalition troops. The Iraqi Army was no longer considered nearly as well supplied or competent in 2003. Sanctions and the collapse of the USSR as an arms provider had crippled their military, as had a decade of a US enforced no fly zone. During the Gulf War, the US essentially defacto partitioned a whole third of Iraq, which was under Kurdish control and rule after. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Another comparison might be Vietnam. South Vietnam had about half the population of Ukraine but the SVA and US forced for COIN operations there peaked at 1.4 million.
However, in general, the size of military deployments has been decreasing. Modern warfare has shown a definite trend towards quality beating quantity. Military hardware is significantly more expensive when adjusting for inflation than during WWII and soldiers now require more training.
Russia's invasion was largely predicated on the prediction that Ukraine's would collapse. The low troop numbers represent Russia's (over)confidence in this collapse, over confidence in the effectiveness of bribes they had paid to Ukrainian leaders, corruption (they thought they had more men than they did, there have been multiple trials over under strength formations and "ghost soldiers"), and general poor planning skills, more than anything relative to their war aims IMO. That and their relative inability to mobilize and support a much larger force. After all, they couldn't support the men they went in with. Having more unsupported columns wouldn't have helped them. — Count Timothy von Icarus
I'd rather call it pro-Russian propaganda. Indeed, these people have no problems to whine over American imperialism EVEN WHEN American didn't "conquest" anything. While refrain from talking about Russian imperialism when the territorial conquest actually happens before they eyes while they are denying it. The intellectual misery is cosmic. — neomac
There were other reasons for invasion. Conquest wasn’t one of them. — Mikie
Supposedly he was chosen because he demonstrated that he was corrupt, so Yeltsin, who was also corrupt, believed Putin wouldn't prosecute him for his crimes. War increased his power? — frank
Just do armchair speculation. Good enough. :up: — Mikie
He rose to power originally by starting a war. More war would pull the country behind him? — frank
I think if the invasion was just a land grab, Putin's timing is a little strange. Why wouldn't he have done that a few years earlier when Trump was president of the US? Trump would have cheered him on. — frank
Waiting until Biden, a hawk, to become president, makes it seem that he wanted to engage the US military somehow. — frank
Since he also declared some sort of new world order after the invasion, indicating that the US was no longer in charge of global affairs, it seems like he thought he was going to easily conquer Ukraine and flaunt this win in spite of Biden's public threat to punish Russia for interfering in US elections. — frank
In other words, I don't believe the invasion was about NATO, but I think it may have partly been about demonstrating Russian military strength and simultaneously demonstrating that US supremacy was over. He just miscalculated his own military capability? — frank
“The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition to not invade Ukraine. Of course, we didn't sign that.
The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second-class membership. We rejected that.
So, he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.”