• The Difference Between Future and Past
    what type of knowledge allows us to say that there is a difference between future and pastMetaphysician Undercover

    There seems to be past - present - future, as memory, sensation, and imagination. I suppose you privilege the present as all-encompassing, in that memory and imagined futures are also 'sensed' as 'present'

    But one does not count prediction as knowledge; all factual knowledge is of the past; all prediction, even, is an extrapolation from the past. It is the blankness of the post below this one that marks it out as 'future'. Whose post it will be, and what it will say, is unknown until it becomes known at which point the post has been made and it is the past.

    What makes the memory of an event different from the anticipation of an event.Metaphysician Undercover
    I am never afraid of the past.
  • Adverse Childhood Experiences.
    Here's a talk. It's low key, conversational, and a quietly devastating criticism of much current practice in education, mental health, and science.
  • I just noticed that it's all about money, the new standard of the universe
    Anyway now that I realize it no alternative would work because anything that measures value would be susceptible to corruption. Thanks.TheMadFool

    It's more so that any metric of value would be money. Rather the way that anything used to measure length becomes a ruler, whether it is a thumb, a foot, a chain, or the distance light travels in a year.

    But the odd thing about money as a metric is how very elastic it is. In times of plenty things are thrown away that at another time would be of huge value. I am as we speak building up a store of nice plump rats in anticipation of the Brexit food shortages - the price can only go up.
  • The beliefs and values of suicide cases
    . But dead people don't post, and have no philosophy.
    — unenlightened

    But they do study the causes of death.

    No, dead people do not study, either at college or independently.
  • The beliefs and values of suicide cases
    I am not even sure that the voices of the mentally ill and generally distressed get heard or responded toAndrew4Handel

    I'm quite sure they are widely ignored and even suppressed. The voices of the dead, however, are silent by nature.

    This prejudice against death, however, is a kind of xenophobia. Discrimination against death is simply assumed good and right. — Heisman
    Most people are so prejudiced on this issue that they simply refuse to even consider the possibilities of death.
    Viviocentric provincialism is exposed through an enlarged view from our planet, our solar system, our galaxy, and the limits of our knowledge of the larger cosmos we live in.
    Overcoming the prejudice against death, then, is only an extension and continuation of the Western project of eliminating bias, especially biologically based biases (i.e. race or sex based biases).

    This guy presents himself as Speaker for the Dead, but the dead have no point of view and nothing to say. So it is complete tosh - there is no such enlarged view, but rather only life has a view, and having a view is almost definitive of life in discussions of 'artificial life' for example. Perhaps I am afraid of death, and perhaps I am not, perhaps i welcome it perhaps I will seek to evade it at all costs. Perhaps I will kill myself when I have posted this. That way, from my POV I will have the last word, though not from anyone else's. But dead people don't post, and have no philosophy.

    Suicide says 'Talk to the corpse, 'cos the person ain't listening.' There may be good reason for that, like no one having listened to distress...

    Someone who isn't dead might like this:
  • Concepts and Correctness
    And if you're not willing, you're incorrect?Terrapin Station

    Not even that. If you are not willing, you are not saying anything.
  • Concepts and Correctness
    Is this the room for an argument?

  • The beliefs and values of suicide cases
    a profound statement.Andrew4Handel

    What do you think that statement is? the nearest I can get is a universal and definitive "Fuck off!", but I'm not sure that 'profound' is how I would describe it.

    The Catholic doctrine used to be, and AFIK still is, that suicide is the only unforgivable (presumably because unrepent-able) sin. Such a doctrine is likely to have a suppressive effect on suicide. Is that a good thing anyway? (Assuming a lack of truth).
  • Brexit
    Lib-dems two-faced? Who'd a thunk it, suckers?
  • Do you run out of feelings?
    the pleasure of bathing is only felt when the participant is bathing.Purple Pond

    "Feeling" seems to be a amalgam of sensation and emotion. So I would say that the sensations of bathing induce emotions of pleasure. But here is a problem for your claim: if there is no pleasure until I actually bathe, what can possibly induce someone to be bothered to run the bath in the first place? I must surely have some feeling about the idea of the bath which induces me to realise it.

    Emotions that constitute a motive necessarily precede the sensations that result from them, and can only be the product of memory and imagination, not sensation.
  • Can we really empathise?
    Empathy is the experience of understanding another person's thoughts, feelings, and condition from his or her point of view, rather than from one's own. I am asking in terms of how accurate that is.BitterClassroomixo

    And I am saying that is a silly question. There is no conceivable measure. You can only measure my empathy with you and understanding of your post using your understanding of my post and empathy with me. Nevertheless, there is empathy, and people feel it in themselves and in other people, empathetically. And sometimes folks will fake it. There has to be the real for there to be a fake.
  • Can we really empathise?
    Not much can be done really and exactly; I feel your pain, but not really or exactly, but just slightly, vaguely, imaginatively. And that is called - really and exactly - "empathy". Stop making it something it isn't and then claiming it doesn't exist - that's silly.
  • Brexit
    Much as I despise the guy, it is nothing shameful. One can be in favour of tax rises and not pay the government the rise one proposes until it is implemented - one works with the systems as is and seeks reform. And the EU agricultural policy has been a notorious dog's breakfast for a long time, mainly to accommodate the result of the revolutionary law in France that property must be inherited equally by siblings, with the result that holdings became fragmented and inefficiently small over the generations.
  • Brexit
    Meanwhile, back in Blighty:

  • Brexit
    Every thread needs a theme tune. It's in the guidelines, or the constitution, or something...

  • "White privilege"

    People like me are the best, and unfortunately that means people like you are a bit crap. My pride insults you - get used to it.
  • "White privilege"
    Quite an absurd response, black people need to be aware that cops will be more likely to shoot them and if they're not aware they are in mortal danger? I do hope you're not serious.Judaka

    Yeah, I wish I wasn't too. But hey, life's to short to argue with wilful ignorance. I'll leave you guys to your moral high ground.
  • Do I have an identity?
    My favourite topic.

    I am often persuaded by a good argument (that is, until I hear a more persuasive argument that is more nuanced from another side.)Noah Te Stroete

    I often walk northwards, until I get hungry, and then I turn round.

    Identity is not self-sameness, nor is it that uniqueness that the police and immigration are interested in. Rather it is a state of mind brought about by a process of identification. For example, I am a certain height, which is more or less constant through adulthood. But 5ft 1ins is not an identity. 'Short-arse' is an identity which is developed in relationship with others who are taller.

    So what’s my identity?Noah Te Stroete

    You're a philosopher, dude. Someone who wonders and questions and changes their mind through their relationships with others (a lot, relative to others). So it has aspects of the personal and aspects of the social. one has identity always in relation to someone or something.

    Someone said, I forget who, that the name of every tribe, in their own language is "The People". One is black or white, German or Italian, smart or dumb, homo- or heterosexual, only in relation (I could say "in comparison") to others. One even has or lacks an identity as an identity relative to others. 'They all have one, but I do not'.
  • "White privilege"
    she might have chosen a better way to say it because an alternate and more more literal reading is that being white is something to be ashamed of.Hanover

    Well I have heard folks say they are proud to be American, or Irish or whatever, and perhaps they might have chosen a better way to say it, or perhaps that is the way identification works, that one can be proud to support the Aussies at cricket, and likewise ashamed when they are caught cheating. It seems to me that folks can feel proud or ashamed of their ancestry as a matter of fact, whether you think it justified or not. One is not praiseworthy or blameworthy in such matters, according to some (our) moralities, but one feels as one feels. Let's not shame her for her shame.
  • "White privilege"
    it's only important if you focus on racial differences.Judaka

    This is not true. It's pretty unimportant if I focus on racial differences or if I don't, because I'm white; it becomes important if racial differences have a cultural significance for people whether they are focussing or not. That is to say, if your skin is black and you don't know that that fact is significant in affecting how readily a cop will shoot you, you are in mortal danger. Not focussing on racial differences is a privilege of whiteness.
  • I don't like Mondays
    it has more cultural weight here.Moliere

    Sure, that likeness is in its literal meaninglessness rather than its cultural meaningfulness. This slots right into Orwell's world: "Attack is defence." Compare with "Loreal - because you're worth it." How reassuring to know one is worth a blob of face cream. How reassuring to know that teachers and students carry guns.

    who do you think, in the case of these acts, are the demagogues?Moliere

    I meant it quite literally - Trump, Bolsenaro, our own Boris and Farage, etc. But I see them as the natural outcome of Blairite focus group politics where winning power is the only policy: 'Give the people what they want', ignoring that what the people want is invariably a contradiction.
  • "White privilege"
    So, would she have preferred to have been born non white and underprivileged?Teller

    I imagine she would prefer that there was not an over-privileged and an underprivileged group, but that all were born equal in privilege and benefit.

    One of the saddest things about privilege is that the privileged usually come to believe they deserve it, and so take pride in their privilege, instead of acknowledging it as a debt they owe to the underprivileged.
  • I don't like Mondays
    I have a tendency to go off-topicBaden

    Do you not like Mondays either?

    I may have linked this paper once before.Moliere

    I haven't seen it before. Lots of detail I'm not familiar with, but a rather narrow time frame. It almost seems to say that politics causes culture rather than my emphasis the other way, though of course they are not separate.
    ... social practices are indicative of an emergent and pernicious form of subjectivity, which is here defined as self-defensive. — abstract

    I think 'subjectivity' is what I would call 'identity' here, and I would rather say 'self-aggrandising' because the notion of self defence seems more like an advertising slogan than anything real. Demagogues arise when there develops a large gap between the social body and the individual identity - when humiliation is widespread. What one is not supposed to notice is that in reality, people with power do not carry guns, they have expendable others do it for them. Just as industrialists do not work in industry. The cops and the killers are pawns in the same game. The education system produces the school shooters.
  • I don't like Mondays
    America as the place where people jostle for their 15 minutes of fame. Germane or not?csalisbury

    Well yes, of course, but they do it in a context that, from the lonesome cowboy of Clint Eastwood through Chandler's Marlow, super-spider-bat-iron man and a million other heroes, financial, sporting, whatever, pitting themselves alone against the cruel world. One jostles for fame because fame is virtue, and so one is dependent on society for the acknowledgement of one's independence. The best of the culture explores this irony.

    Hence Thatcher's response to the IRA, 'denying them the oxygen of publicity' well rehearsed in the thread already. It would make sense if one could arrange for society to negate its fundamental character when convenient. But a man with gun becomes a person of importance to those around him even with a media blackout. And the culture is that a person of no importance is no person at all. What America lacks is the notion of solidarity.

    So the argument that the number of deaths is 'insignificant', is to be expected - you want to be a proper American mass killer, you gotta get a tank at least, and maybe some missiles.
  • I don't like Mondays
    The rush of attention to a mass shooting should be mentioned if the goal is to try to understand why close to the same scenario keeps repeating.frank

    Keeps repeating? You mean like 'over and over again'? Is that why you brought up the media attention, or was it directed at me? You might have made that argument, but it would not have been an argument against anything that was being said, but, as I said before, an attempt to shut down the discussion.

    But you have exposed yourself sufficiently and I will not bother to respond further.
  • I don't like Mondays
    I didn't call you silly or hysterical. I called the Viking argument silly and the public and media reaction hysterical.T Clark

    Indeed, and here you are repeating it. And again you have no justification whatsoever, because there is no Viking argument, and there is no mention of the public or the media either. So what do you think you are addressing with these comments?
  • Thought and Being
    In a monochrome world, colour words would have no application. In particular, the term 'monochrome' would have no application.

    But we have gone from our RGB world of 3 dimensions of colour to a 1 dimensional 'black and white' one. Why not consider the colour language of 2 dimensions - a world of red and green but no blue for instance? Or the world of some insects and others that have more than three kinds of colour receptors?
  • I don't like Mondays
    Trolling the thread = Disagrees with me.T Clark

    No, trolling the thread = calling me silly and hysterical and presenting absolutely no argument or insight but rather attempting to shut down the discussion. Trolling the the thread is making a whole lot of noise about something else to drown out any possibility of learning anything about the topic.

    On the other, eeeevvvvveerrryytbody knows we need to reduce the number of firearms in the US. So that's another drama that seems to especially fascinate non-Americans. Who knows why? It's dramatic, I guess.frank

    And here you are yet again. No one is talking about gun control in the thread. You bring it up to create another diversion, along with child abuse. What are you so scared of?
  • I don't like Mondays
    What do you say to them?Baden

    Nanu nanu. I think you must have been sleeping through Human societies 101.
  • I don't like Mondays
    And yes, I do have an axe to grind - I think this kind of hysterical reaction to this type of event hurts the country.T Clark

    Really? I mean REALLY? You think my discussion of international news from the other side of the ocean is a hysterical reaction that hurts the country? That's a seriously delicate little flower of a country you got there. Either that, or it's your hysterical reaction to my wanting to discuss something.
  • I don't like Mondays
    Please tell me why the deaths of 120 people out of a total of 2.8 million is significant.T Clark

    Sure. It's a matter of social relations. The numbers have no importance here; the importance it has is the importance it is given, just as the value of money is the value people put upon it. This is called social construction. To put it another way, everybody dies, but how one dies is 'significant'. It matters whether my wife dies of natural causes or is murdered. And it matters to the whole society, because the whole society is structured to be concerned about such things, with police and courts and so on.

    But this is so blatantly fucking obvious that I have to think you are just trolling the thread now because you have some axe to grind.
  • I don't like Mondays
    You're not going to save a significant number of lives by any action you take.T Clark

    You have absolutely no idea how many lives my posts might save or cost. Perhaps a potential shooter will be transformed, or possibly pushed over the edge by something they read here. If you think the topic is of no significance, what are you doing posting so much about it? Feel free to turn your attention to significant issues any time. You are talking complete bollocks anyway; should we ignore presidential elections because they don't happen 'again and again' by your ridiculous interpretation?
  • I don't like Mondays
    We're more like the British, I would think.Bitter Crank

    The County of Sutherland in Scotland got its name from its position in the Viking territory. The word 'thing' is derived from the Viking word for their parliament. The British are the Vikings, and we still describe people who go energetically and violently insane as 'berserk'. All you whiteys are European, and your horrible culture is all based on Europe's; the vikings are an influence beyond question.

    I think the Viking theory is silly. Again, it's people trying to say something to make themselves feel better, more in control of frightening things.T Clark

    It's not 'people' saying anything, it's me, no one else. And it's not a theory - see reply to BC. The 'theory' I am illustrating with an example from history, is that when the same thing keeps happening again and again in a society over decades, it cannot be sensibly regarded as an aberration. Universities inevitably have dropouts, and hero-worship inevitably has berserkers. This is our normal.
  • Bias against philosophy in scientific circles/forums
    Builders also have a disdain for Architects, with their airy-fairy notions of form and function and beauty, and no proper understanding of brickwork. Let the brickies discuss trowel size and pointing finishes in peace, and the architects can discuss their rarified and impractical concerns amongst themselves elsewhere. Just don't expect a bricky to design your new house, even if he thinks he can.
  • I don't like Mondays
    One should think the reason, regardless of demographics, behind the murder is frustration.Hanover

    Hmm. Perhaps I have a different idea of what reason is. The thrust of the op is is that 'I don't like Mondays' does not count as a reason, even if it counts as a cause, and neither does 'I don't like foreigners'.

    To try to say this is some kind of epidemic of Viking berserkers shows a lack of perspective.T Clark
    Good job no one said then, because a lack of perspective is a major symptom of incipient mass murder.
    Nevertheless, as I pointed out, there are parallels between the US and Viking cultures, and one of them is the centrality of the hero, the individual of power to individual and national identity, hence the abhorrence of anything "social".

    I don't want to push the Viking thing any further than that, it is intended merely as a provocation to have a fresh think. I want to make a couple of suggestions: that the roots of the phenomenon are deep, and on the one hand a part of human nature, and on the other, (ironically) highly socially conditioned.

    The guilt precedes the crime. As a kid might act out to give concrete object to Dads angry sulk, that kid not being able to comprehend the idea of nursing a wound brought home from work.csalisbury

    Well yes, what you say is all good psychological stuff, and psychological stuff is in the business of making sense of folly. I don't disagree with this approach, but I want to try another line, that says this is heroic, laudable behaviour that has been 'misplaced'. Encouraged by the culture as the apotheosis of manhood and leadership and so on.
  • The most wonderful life.
    So come with me, where dreams are born, and time is never planned. Just think of happy things, and your heart will fly on wings, forever, in Never Never Land! — J.M.Barrie

    This is not an invitation to the most wonderful life, but to the most wonderful dream. There is no contest between them, and I do not endorse and nor do I indulge in happy thoughts. This is not a thread for anyone seeking happiness or equanimity or peace, or therapeutic advice.

    whenever you think or you believe or you know, you’re a lot of other people: but the moment you feel, you’re nobody-but-yourself.

    To be nobody-but-yourself — in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else — means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting.
    — op

    You're on your own, kiddo, and if you're not on your own, you're not in the game. Build your bridges and walk on them or burn them, but neither a bridge-borrower nor a bridge-lender be.
  • The most wonderful life.
    But still there's something about the post of yours I've quoted above which seems different than that.
    As Bateson says the cycle will continue until a deeper nonwilled change happens. The idea of preparation seems to both admit the powerlesness of oneself to stop a cycle by force, but leaves room for a different kind of thing, an attentiveness maybe while it goes on and on, to maybe change things in little ways just enough to leave a little space for something outside to come through?

    I'm so glad you're seeing somewhat what I'm trying to get at. Yes 'I' can't change/stop 'the cycle', because whenever 'I' act on 'the cycle' I'm just moving it on, or going around it some more. But 'the cycle' has that freedom ...

    'Seeing without division', as the man has it.
  • Why should an individual matter?
    Why should ...?DanielPhil

    It really doesn't matter what comes after this, does it? and even if it does, why should it?

    Sometimes the right answer is " Hush! Go and clean your teeth, it's bedtime."
  • When do we begin to have personhood?
    I might say that personhood is a legal status granted to certain 'companies' (bunches of people with property?) when they have ritually drawn up and signed certain documents of 'incorporation'.
    It is also usually granted to any live birth, and in some places under some conditions to the unborn. There have been recent cases seeking to grant personhood to rivers, and possibly other natural features.
    It answers the question of the thread title, but this is more interesting:-

    Think back to your earliest memories, then ask yourself, is this the start of me? Or did I begin when I entered this world? When did I enter it? When I remember, when I was born, when my parents first gifted me with moral consideration, or when I was conceived? If I had been lost before I was born, would I have caused my parents the same grief as if I’d died at the age of 1?Mark Dennis

    I used to have a recurring dream, very frightening, and almost beyond description. I was in a field, and then I was being crushed by an enormous weight that I couldn't escape. Then one day, about eleven yrs, when i learned where babies came from, I realised it was a birth contraction memory, and never had that dream again. I also had another recurring nightmare, that I realised was an actual birth canal journey memory, and I never had that one again after I recognised it as real but past. So what is in the gift of others is certainly vital to any life of a social being, but it is a line of declaration - of passionate declaration, by all means, that is any parents' necessity of love - to say that this bud is a rose, and it is none of anyone's business to measure the loss between one person and another. My sister lost a teenage child, and still every year fifty years later posts his picture on facebook on his birthday.

    Mark, I wish that you will have a child and have much joy, and I am sure that you will always have the sadness of your loss too, and they are both immeasurable and incomparable.
  • Three Questions about Jung (Dynamics of Personality)
    The sort of thing Jung wants to get a handle on with the notion of the collective unconscious is - well, something like 'zeitgeist'. So he might talk about the energy, or momentum of Nazism in 1930s Germany. Now we could in a hand-waving way reduce it all to social facilitation, conformity, propaganda, and so on, but there are two problems, one is that it has very little explanatory value, and the other is that the reductive tendency is itself very much part of the zeitgeist. One has to reduce one's own theorising to the same semi random mechanics as everything else. But probably don't bother to try and wade through all the dude's works, there's just way too much and life's too short. Have you come across Gregory Bateson? He's more modern, and way more brief and focussed. But stay away from his fans, especially the NLP brigade.

    (That link is just a random paper I happened to have already in reference to another thread. 'Steps to an Ecology of Mind is his classic)