Comments

  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    A fundamental law of Trumpism is projection.


  • The Disinformation Industry
    This isn't about taking sides.Tzeentch

    Oh yes it is. We are on the side of truth, and they are the enemy.
  • The Disinformation Industry
    Fortunately, its always the other side one has to fact check, one's own group being open and honest about everything.
  • How far does the “My life or theirs” argument go?
    living by that principle is inconvenient.Vera Mont

    Indeed, that's why only the virtuous do it. Even Trump/Putin/the boogieman will tell the truth when it's convenient.
  • How far does the “My life or theirs” argument go?
    Further suppose those agents start breaking the guy's fingers and he spills his guts about how to disarm the bomb and they disarm it.
    — RogueAI
    His fingers and toes are all broken, and he still doesn't know how to disarm the bomb, because he didn't make it or arm it. He doesn't know who they are or where they are. The terrorists are smart enough to send an ignorant mule to plant it.
    Vera Mont

    Yes, but suppose they catch one of the smart guys one day...

    One ought to assume that sometimes torture is efficacious, otherwise no one would ever be tempted. One thing it is efficacious for, is to instil terror, for example; it functions as a deterrent.

    It is not immoral to torture people because it is ineffectual; that is an argument of despair one resorts to with the totally amoral, to whom moral arguments have no meaning. Hurt and harm imposed on another are the basis for calling it immoral. And if hurt and harm should not to be imposed on us, then it should not to be imposed on them either. This simple principle is why the first step in any crime against humanity is "dehumanising". This produces "edge-cases".
  • What is the true nature of the self?
    I think there is a persistent confusion between self and consciousness which messes up a lot of the discourse.
    — bert1
    So then "consciousness" is impersonal? For instance, my awareness of being self-aware isn't actually mine? :chin:
    180 Proof

    It seems to be localised. If consciousness is transparent, to the extent that one cannot see the rose tint, or whatever the opposite is (blue?), then this body's consciousness is this body's, and that explains the persistent illusion that the body image is the consciousness, because otherwise it is mere breath (aka 'spirit'). In which case "what it is like to be a bat" is intelligible as being just like being a little furry flying me that is shortsighted and can echo-locate.

    And that understanding would seem to lead very naturally to a common-sense ethic - if all consciousness is 'the same', then 'do not do to yourself over there what you would not like if you were over there, because you are over there as well as here.
  • What's the Difference between Philosophy and Science?
    What's the difference between a loaf of bread and a slice of bread?
  • I’ve never knowingly committed a sin
    Good grief!

    I don't really know what the OP hopes to achieve with his tautologyLeontiskos

    It's a preamble to casting the first stone, obviously.
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    https://global-tipping-points.org

    Here is a large report that explains some of the tipping points and what we might expect and what we ought to be doing about it politically. It's fairly up to date, and well researched. Seems mightily optimistic to me about the ability/possibility for human society to find its own transformative positive tipping points in terms of world governance and mitigating technologies and lifestyle adaptation. But hope springs 'til the last minute.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Another rat departs the hopefully sinking ship, armed with enough insider testimony to plea bargain his own case.



    Meanwhile, the twenty year long conspiracy to pervert the course of British justice that is the Post Office False Prosecutions Scandal remains without a single arrest of an official or the payment of any compensation. (This in case the US government and its fans feel lonely in their corruption.)
  • “That’s not an argument”
    the user who deliberately put himself on his own ignore list remains unnoticed by this fact.javi2541997

    I particularly like the idea of the facts not noticing me. Please share that strange liquid with me!
  • “That’s not an argument”
    Unfortunately, it turns out not to be possible to put oneself on one's ignore list. So one has no other recourse but to be an intelligent and interesting interlocutor, or be irritated.
  • Trusting your own mind
    My question is how does one know when that is the case - ie they're chatting sh*t. And to the contrary, when they really do know what they're talking about.Benj96

    What one knows is what has been. What another knows one might learn if one pays attention quietly to what they are saying without rehearsing what one knows over, to compare. Your question arises when there is a conflict. One thinks one knows and then discovers that one was wrong, and there is no conflict if one is ready to learn. Only if one tries to hold on to one's knowing does the conflict arise. So one learns that a conflicted mind is the infallible sign.

    One piece of evidence is that I don't seem to be struggling against "reality" as much as I used to.BC

    This!

    Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it?
    I do not believe it can be done.

    The universe is sacred.
    You cannot improve it.
    If you try to change it, you will ruin it.
    If you try to hold it, you will lose it.

    So sometimes things are ahead and sometimes they are behind;
    Sometimes breathing is hard, sometimes it comes easily;
    Sometimes there is strength and sometimes weakness;
    Sometimes one is up and sometimes down.

    Therefore the sage avoids extremes, excesses, and complacency.
    — Tao Te Ching
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Some interesting (to me) discussion of the inexplicable (to me) convergence of the right and the evangelicals here in the first 25mins of this.

  • Camus misunderstood by prof John Deigh?
    As editor of the Parisian daily Combat, the successor of a Resistance newssheet run largely by Camus, he held an independent left-wing position based on the ideals of justice and truth and the belief that all political action must have a solid moral basis. Later, the old-style expediency of both Left and Right brought increasing disillusion, and in 1947 he severed his connection with Combat.

    [snip]

    As novelist and playwright, moralist and political theorist, Albert Camus after World War II became the spokesman of his own generation and the mentor of the next, not only in France but also in Europe and eventually the world. His writings, which addressed themselves mainly to the isolation of man in an alien universe, the estrangement of the individual from himself, the problem of evil, and the pressing finality of death, accurately reflected the alienation and disillusionment of the postwar intellectual. He is remembered, with Sartre, as a leading practitioner of the existential novel. Though he understood the nihilism of many of his contemporaries, Camus also argued the necessity of defending such values as truth, moderation, and justice. In his last works he sketched the outlines of a liberal humanism that rejected the dogmatic aspects of both Christianity and Marxism.
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Albert-Camus

    Not a moral nihilist at all, but a deeply moral thinker. Perhaps it is not so much John Deigh who misunderstands Camus, as the contributors to this thread.
  • “That’s not an argument”
    I almost never make arguments; I prefer analysis, explanation, analogy, illustration, even pontification.
  • “That’s not an argument”
    Yeah, but that's not an argument.
  • Wondering about inverted qualia
    First of all, does it make sense to speak of shared sensations?sime

    In a word — no. The word "red" and the meaning "stop" are reliably connected with the top light of the traffic signal. This is what we need to agree on and can agree on even if some of us are colour-blind.

    But philosophers talk of sensations, formerly of impressions, currently of qualia, as internal subjective and radically private. Cue Wittgenstein's private language argument.

    The only way to describe the sensation of the top traffic light that we have agreed to call "red" is to associate it analogically with other sensations - loud, angry, hot, that sort of thing. And this too becomes an agreed set of associations such that one cannot oneself know if they are personal to one's actual sensation or learned socially.

    In the end, if we propose a possible sensation that is radically private (and all sensations are such), we cannot say anything about them at all. Certainly one can propose that my sensation of the top light is "the same" as your sensation of the bottom light, and vice versa, but this inversion can never be detected, by definition of the term 'sensation', and so such talk is meaningless.
  • Being In the Middle
    To me that leans too far. You can so lean, as the lines are extremely blurry. But I can’t unsee the lines. I still see enough to call being in the middle something happening.Fire Ologist

    To who? I talk about identity as if i have none and for sure that leans too far. But perhaps "we" can find the balance together? Something and nothing — someone and no one.. When philosophy fails, maybe try poetry.
  • Rings & Books
    I would hate to think that it undermines all attempts to articulate ideas rationally - though I agree that many people have taken it that way.Ludwig V

    I wouldn't take it that way, but I would take it as undermining any attempt to claim that the male of the species is more rational than the female, and any position that relies on that thesis.
  • Being In the Middle
    All, for human beings, is in the middle.Fire Ologist

    Indeed, one is always in a mid-life crisis whenever one philosophises - in the middle of a muddle.

    Life is only completed by death. and identity is merely what one writes on another's tombstone. Everything is becoming except oneself, and that remains forever empty, though the world pours in at every sense.

    Being just is, and only nothing happens.
  • Rings & Books
    It's a puzzle. That's all I'm saying.Ludwig V

    It is a puzzle because for a few centuries one experience has been taught as if it were the only experience that had meaning. to hear that there is another experience seems shocking, and to notice that it has been the experience of half of humanity all this time and has been studiously ignored and denigrated as 'illogical', is such wilful blindness and illogicality that it undermines the rationalist position from start to finish.
    That's how I put the pieces together, anyway.
  • Rings & Books
    If it is an intuition, would it be shared by a pregnant women?Banno

    Dilato ergo summus.

    I'm unmarried and so don't have a real insight into what she's saying.Moliere
    No objection from me. We all have mothers after all.
  • How could someone discover that they are bad at reasoning?
    A whole philosophical tradition discovered it was unreasonable in declaring that "all swans are white".

    The phrase "black swan" derives from a Latin expression; its oldest known occurrence is from the 2nd-century Roman poet Juvenal's characterization in his Satire VI of something being "rara avis in terris nigroque simillima cygno" ("a bird as rare upon the earth as a black swan").[4]: 165 [5][6] When the phrase was coined, the black swan was presumed by Romans not to exist.[1] The importance of the metaphor lies in its analogy to the fragility of any system of thought. A set of conclusions is potentially undone once any of its fundamental postulates is disproved. In this case, the observation of a single black swan would be the undoing of the logic of any system of thought, as well as any reasoning that followed from that underlying logic.
    Juvenal's phrase was a common expression in 16th century London as a statement of impossibility.[7] The London expression derives from the Old World presumption that all swans must be white because all historical records of swans reported that they had white feathers.[8] In that context, a black swan was impossible or at least nonexistent.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

    See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kant_and_the_Platypus
    (The platypus is an anomolous creature that transcended the category mammal when discovered by both suckling its young and laying eggs rather than live young, thereby irritating many tidy minds.)

    One discovers, when reality bites, rather than when the king of the internet argues.
  • Externalised and Non-Externalised Expression
    In the realm of expressing thoughts and opinions, I have identified two forms:Judaka

    What you are talking about is subjectivism and objectivity. It's covered in Philosophy 101.alan1000

    Explicitly, from the beginning, the op declares that the division he is expressing is "Non-externalised", which I take it that @alan1000 is identifying as "subjectivism".

    However, I also take it from the reference to "Philosophy 101" that @alan 1000 takes his distinction to be externalised/objective.

    And that curious circumstance leads me to suggest that the distinction cannot be made absolutely clear. Rather, distinctions are always made by subjects, but since language is shared, their expression always depends upon a shared object world.
  • Rings & Books
    It is about growing up, and being human, and the inherent limits of great men.Banno

    And that explains entirely its unpopularity both here/now, and at the time. From the isolated SUM comes not so much science, which is irrevocably polyphonic and communal, as capitalism, and fascism.

    But of course I would say that!
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    A discussion of various things, that might be of interest.

  • On delusions and the intuitional gap
    Well, there's the solipsistic outtake - we should stop talking about this because we can't know anything.Malcolm Lett

    Well this is the fundamental difficulty of such arguments: "How come you know so much about how deluded we all are?" If the world we see is not the world, how can you talk about the world? It looks like some esoteric wisdom you have to claim there.

    Now me, I claim that I am real and the world is real, and I don't know everything, but I know how many beans make five and that shit smells.
  • To what Jazz and Classical Music are you listening?
    Toccata and fugue, on a friggin'harp? Oh yeah, and for the first time, it makes sense!

  • Education and why we have the modern system
    Most adults I know agree that they have forgotten the majority of what they learnt in schoolpursuitofknowlege

    This because they have mostly forgotten what it was they did and didn't learn in school. But if you go into it, they may admit to having learned to read and write, to behave in a group appropriately, to deal with money and weights and measures, and make simple calculations, the rules and some technique of various sports and games, the fundamentals of law and how to treat others, and no doubt a host of other stuff that I myself have forgotten I learned there, but still use all the time.
  • What is 'Mind' and to What Extent is this a Question of Psychology or Philosophy?
    Try an analogy.

    What is radio broadcast? "Radio broadcast is what radio receivers do."

    Common sense - you never hear the radio except when there is a radio receiver, and it has to be turned on, like a functioning brain.

    Except it's obviously false; the broadcasts come from elsewhere, and permeate space, and the radio receivers make it locally manifest when they are tuned to the appropriate frequency. At least, that is the faith I have been brought up with - I have never actually seen a "broadcast".
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    Indeed. It is harder I think for the young - my daughters do not seem to want children. When I was procreating, there was still hope. But there is room until the very last gasp for kindness and affection, and to make what adaptations one can...

    https://community.deepadaptation.info
  • Violence & Art


    You would do well to distinguish between the art that portrays violence, and the art that contrives violence.

    For example, Nero contrived a violent spectacle that was later portrayed thusly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero%27s_Torches

    Painting and burning people alive have very different aesthetics. Which is your main interest?
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    Be not too hard, for life is short,
    And nothing is given to man;
    Be not too hard when he is sold and bought,
    And he must manage as best he can;
    Be not too hard when he blindly dies
    Fighting for things he does not own;
    And be not too hard when he tells lies,
    Or his heart is sometimes like a stone;
    Be not too hard, for soon he'll die,
    Often no wiser than he began;
    Be not too hard, for life is short,
    And nothing is given to man.
    — Christopher Logue
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    Maybe you feel it’s already over. In that case, fineMikie

    Not at all. My feeling is that ..."It's only just begun." Which has been my tag line in this thread several times.

    And fine it is not going to be — stormy, rather. But I have given up hoping that sense and decency will prevail in the near future; rather, starvation, war, and greedy stupidity will do the job instead.
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    A weird response,Mikie

    Don't take it personal, but I do get a bit fed up with being told my language and/or attitude is the problem. The solution we are going for at the moment is 'most people die', along with a mass extinction.

    Language matter, especially in media headlines for the part of the masses who are stupid enough to only read the headlines; but who carry enough democratic power to vote people into power who actively act against mitigation strategies.Christoffer

    Obviously those people are not reading climate scientists or philosophy forums, so there is no problem. Oh, but wait - there is a problem, and it's not careless talk that is costing lives, but closed ears.


    Here's some people taking it seriously. Because when things get tough, the tough get going. I'm just leaving this link here for my own reminder really, but if anyone wants to look at the security implications, here are some folk already doing that.
    https://climateandsecurity.org
  • Climate Change (General Discussion)
    it’s important to acknowledge the level of threat we face. But doomism and defeatism isn’t the answer.Mikie

    Oh if only I could find the right way to talk. 'Crisis' good, 'catastrophe' bad; 'tipping point' good, 'point of no return' bad; 'Houston we have a problem', good, 'The rocket has exploded' bad.

    The main thing is to get the talk nuanced just so, and then everyone will act and no one will despair. Or possibly not.
  • How to do nothing with Words.
    Who cares if I'm silent?baker

    Who cares if you're not?