Humans are selfish for survival purposes. — MonfortS26

We lived on that up until now, do you feel safe today? I would feel more safe if I lived in a cave with 10 more people that I trust then to be alone at night - vulnerable to beasts or other threats. But out of egoism I rather build my own home and make my own " safeness " - which is fake and unrealistic anyway.

The ME is the construction of the thinking process that assembled all the experiences, fears, knowledge, images about everything into this construct of the " ME ".

What are your virtues? — MonfortS26

goodness, virtuousness, righteousness, morality, ethicalness, uprightness, upstandingness, integrity, dignity, rectitude, honesty, honourableness, honourability, honour, incorruptibility, probity, propriety, decency, nobility, nobility, worthiness, worth, good, trustworthiness, meritoriousness, irreproachableness, blamelessness, purity, pureness, lack of corruption, merit; principles, high principles, ethics
"the simple virtue and integrity of peasant life" - this is the definition of virtue.

I try to live with these in mind constantly and do the right thing.
I try not to lie - unless is business related :) there is Free For All ( no morality and no nobility in business )
I try to be non-judgemental, ( I'm not saying it works 100% , but if i go from 100% to 5% then for me it's a win or at least a great progress and I can go further from there )
I try to help unconditionally
I try to not be and ass ( we all know how an ass acts in society - watch Donald Trump )
I try not to be corrupted ( the hardest thing to do - because corruption exists as long as there is self interest )
etc

in other terms Morality comes only with understanding.

We all see the society we live in, but we are society, so we always say: lets change society... ok then, how ? if we are society shouldn't we each of us change ourselves and we changed the entire society?
How can you proceed otherwise?
You wanna go and feed manually all the hungry people in the world ? Be realistic, you can't. But if we change our behaviour, maybe, we will get to a different kind of lifestyle. Why would you buy a 5 or 10$ pack of cigarettes every day instead of giving a homeless guy food worth of 10$/day ? wouldn't that be amazing? But we will never do it because we care about ourselves more then about anything else in this universe. So as long as there is the ME involved, society will never change.

Stereotypical yes, Hypocritical no. How can you not feel even a little guilty for having such an easy life when there are people suffering to that level anywhere in the world. Sex slavery, abusive parenting, war, addiction, murder, rape. All horrible things that people other than me are suffering through. You are making it out to be ego-centric to attach happiness to that like that is a bad thing. Would you prefer I be Id-centric? — MonfortS26

Bro, change yourself and you change mankind... Don't try to change and solve the problems of the mankind OUTWARDLY like you enumerated murder rape addiction etc above. Those are INWARD problems that manifest OUTWARDLY ( we only see the results, the murders, the hunger etc ).
So if you really wanna make a difference in this world focus on yourself (not being egoistic, because by self I dont mean the name, the culture , the religion that you "have" or get identified with, I am meaning the human being), and by doing that you will discover a new way of living that will be emapthic and you will autmatically influence people around you in a positive direction.

Morality according to virtue and order is the REAL morality and if you are seeking that you will never find it unless you make order in your own mind. So before trying ANYTHING outwardly, see what goes within and make order within.

Virtue:
1. behaviour showing high moral standards. ( this is something that lies whithin ) like making the difference between right and wrong, if you can't see the line then we are in a very bad situation.

I said social morality is not real morality not that there is no MORALITY at all..

But if you are seeking a life where you want to be happy ( and don't mix happiness with pleasure-that can be self created through means like sex, games, drugs, alcohol etc) and corect with yourself, from any POV and search for higher stakes other then materialsm, you should go the other way around. — Benjamin Dovano

The other way around is to be MORAL according to virtue and the real facts.

I don't see it as being reasonable for me to stay in a fantasy of my own bullshit while there are kids starving in Africa — MonfortS26

This is one of the most hypocritcal mention btw in the history of mankind, whenever anyone wants to give the world the impression that he/she cares about anything in this world they mention the " poor starving kids of Africa ".... it's like the Miss contenders say everytime, that they want to solve world hunger and all that bullshit... And bring world peace... how ? By being ego-centric ? By going to do a "moral" thing according to society to feel happy about it ?

I don't see it as being reasonable for me to stay in a fantasy of my own bullshit while there are kids starving in Africa. — MonfortS26

then go to Africa and feed them if you believe that will make you happy. I did not state that anyone can live in a permanent state of happiness, what I was meaning is that happiness is different then pleasure and it's merely a perfume not a thing to do to reach it. However YOU want to help the poor kids in Africa in order to get yourself HAPPY - that is a very ugly and egocentristic thing to do. I would rather help them because I feel like doing that not in order too feed my ego and become happy about it.
Go find happiness in the material world as you describe it and return when you find it :)

I would rather do something productive for our society and further the technological and scientific advancements of the human race than just sit back and enjoy "the things in life you can't describe" — MonfortS26

If you understood that, then I'm not sure what else I can say...
I would try to understand myself first if I were you.

To me it seems you are trying to persuade me into nihilistic thought. — MonfortS26

I am not trying to persuade you in any direction, because I don't care :) It's your life and your journey, If I can however help with a personal perspective that might or might not bring light in the problem, that's ok, but other then that live your own life like we all do.

Happiness is the perception I have when there are no boundries, no rules to respect(which doesn't mean I should do whatever I want and hurt others around me), no fear, when I am not seeking it, happiness cannot be searched for, it comes naturally when you are in a fresh mental state, positive, alive, optimistic, cheerfull. And to be in this kind of state you have to live a very moral life, according to yourself.

Drink every few days or get other means of pleasure and you will see the down that comes after, the depression, and you will be unhappy all your life, with little boosts of pleasure that you can treat yourself with every now and then.
Pleasure always comes along with pain, it's like a rollercoaster, the higher you get the pleasure the deeper the depression goes.
But happiness doesn't come with any strings attached, you felt it for sure and it was an immense joy inside that we usually can't express in words.
Most of the important things in life have no words to describe them.

Rather then seeking happiness, look within yourself and get to know yourself and amazing things will happen :)
We are always trying to become something, constantly on the move of becoming, I am stupid and I want to become smart like " that guy " , I am poor and I want to become rich like Elon Musk :)
But what are you ? You say you want to become "that", but what are you ? It's like being lost in a wood and you want to find the way out but you never stop to see where you are in that exact moment, so you keep going and going and will never reach the destination because there is no starting point nor a direction. You always want to become something but you don't know what's the source that wants to transform itself.

If you are seeking society success then yes, you should not care about morals to much, because social morality is no REAL morality, it's only morality according to circumstances. You do things because people agree with them and boosts your image and you benefit and so on, the everlasting respectability fight.
But if you are seeking a life where you want to be happy ( and don't mix happiness with pleasure-that can be self created through means like sex, games, drugs, alcohol etc) and corect with yourself, from any POV and search for higher stakes other then materialsm, you should go the other way around.

Hope this answers a bit :)

Today it has become so easy to be successful according to so society, meaning to become respectable and gain power and money, it only takes a machiavellian mind, cunning, greedy, deceitful to manipulate people and their emotions and there you go, success :)
It's up to you :) - my personal perspective would be a little balance between the two, with tendencies to live as a human being 80% and as an individual 20%. The human being, being the moral one and the individual being the "shallow" result that society created through education and prejudices and all other influences that formed you up until now.

Thinking is the means with which to know ? To know what ?

Ok, ill come with another version, that is more clear, I see everyone tends to go insanely abstract and with no clarity, as far as I am concerned ( is just an opinion, you can totally ignore it ).

Thinking is a response of our memory, think of it like a 'heartbeat' in the brain, that keeps pomping electrical signals that translate into ideas(thinking) , rather then blood like the heart does.
It is no different then breathing, only harder to understand and contain because you can easily control your nose and mouth and air intake - you can hold your breath for a few seconds and the general population does it too, but there are some who can hold their breathing for minutes ( lots of them ), now try to imagine thinking again, if you try to stop it as a MEANS ( beacause I want to ), you will fail because you are trying to exercise a method of suppression on something that evolved in millions of years and we still strive to understand what it is and how it works.

But if we go with understanding thinking and all the facts that are related to it maybe we can reach a new destination in our journey. I am not stating anything.

What is thinking ? Go with any definition you want.

What makes you think that it is or could be limitless? And by limitless, what do you mean? — Heister Eggcart

It means life can't be put in a box with 6 walls like " thought and time " life is more then that, existence is more then that.

Not at all! That is of great interest to me, also. I have been pursuing such ideas all my life. Here's a few resources:

Science and Nonduality
Closer to Truth — Wayfarer

Thank you! Will go into it and get back :)

Why would you put it like this? Why would you have to convince me that something is sacred.
Let me put it this way: " How can we be alive, if life started before humans? - Are we forbid to experience something from before our existence?

How could I possibly convince you that something is sacred of you don't feel it yourself? — John

If I can feel it and experience it, then it is from the past, and I recognize it, otherwise it cannot be experienced right ? Unless you recognize it, how can you know if it was any experience ? So it must be something that happened in the past, but what if that past is billions of years ago, and the experience of IT is stored in a sort of Universal consciousness, where all things reside and we borrow and give back constantly without even knowing? "

Did mathematics existed before humans ? Was mathematics expressed in the form of creation and galaxies and every phenomena that exists ? If so, we merely discoverd it right ? But it was there with the original creation act ?

I certainly don't think we could have "invented" sacredness — John

What makes you so sure? Maybe we invented it because of our fear of death ? We certainly invented the word for it, but what is it and why are we so affraid to face it ?

others (like Benjamin Devano) are searching for something beyond it. — Wayfarer

Am I doing something wrong? :) If I am not satisfied with the curent version of " reality " presented by society and media and education and all that is involved, and I want to go beyond, what should stop me? Nothing as far as I am concerned.
I tested this reality, I got a good grasp of it, i find it a second hand reality... so I wanna meet the REAL reality, in which truth resides.
It is nothing outside of this world, it is only prohibited because we are limited and keep playing the game in the same limits and accept them as default.

Can we say Life is a dance of elementary particles?
If so, who plays the music ? And how many songs did we listen to so far? Who can change the record?

What if life - the animation we have by being alive is a code that can be decrypted? Our lives today are like an encoded message that we can copy paste and it does what it has to do, but we don't see the source code, we only see the results, (you know you can make a baby with your spouse, but what goes behind the curtains of the procreation act?)
How do the cells and chemicals tango so that they become " alive and aware "?

I think if we are ever to find GOD, it must be a mix between Science (reasoning) and Curiosity ( innocence) and not the current Spirituality(believe with no questions). Probably a different state or essence of Spirituality.

I know what you mean, but I tend to think that nature, the world, is, prior to rationalistic thought, aboriginally sacred and replete with God.
I think this kind of notion of original participatory perception is the thesis of Barfield's Saving the Appearances, if I remember correctly. And he thinks much rides on humanity's ability to effect a return to that kind of participation. I tend to find myself agreeing more and more with this these days. — John

Was there anything sacred then before humans existed ? Or we invented sacredness ?
I feel like I released a monster with this topic but I will not stop here on this topic :) - this was merely an introduction so I can get to know some of you and how you're thinking.

And again thank you for sharing your thoughts in regard to this matter.

Well, I'd ask you as I asked Ben. How might you or I actually go about "finding" what is sacred, that which is outside of time and thought? — Heister Eggcart

When you say " everything lies in the time and thought fields " then you automagically :) put borders around an say ( this is all we can ). And life is limitless in my opinion.

Inquire into stop thinking? Life is way more then we see or percieve with our human senses right? I would call thinking a sense, like the smell or sight - and if those senses can be educated, why can't thinking be educated in such a manner that would allow you to pause it when needed ?

Saying there is nothing beyond thought and time ( just because we are limited in visual spectre, lifetime, understanding and all the other limitations that we have as humans ), sounds a bit vain, and I would rather apporach this with a more humble state. If I say there is nothing beyond that, then that's that. We stop.
But a more open approach like ( let's find out ), will probably lead to success.
I'm optimistic :)
I like to see the glass refillable not half empty or half full :)

Also I would like to thank you for your answers, because they bring a new perfume to my thinking and I find it very usefull.

If what is sacred is outside of "time and thought" as you say, then what is there to be done about it? — Heister Eggcart

Try and find it ?

I believe it goes beyond the field of thinking, because of the limits of thinking. Thinking is a movement that takes place in time. And what probably is Sacred, is beyond time and thought.

It is very unclear for me too right now, because I am experiencing some very strange emotions after some deeper research into meditation and thinking. I have not felt this emptiness in my entire life, and I am no stranger to psychological pain.

:-*

thank you for your kind answer. ;)

I believe we are taking the " sacred " word to much into our materialistic world.
For me personally Life itself seems sacred, however we are trashing it in the worst ways possible nowadays in our so called "society"- I can barely use this term because for me it has a majestic sound, a music, SOCIETY, it's something that in a different dimension actually means something and society lives morally. It sounds like something we should be proud of.. not like today.

We praise buildings and pictures .... and kill life (animals and plants)....

Do you understand my question? Apparently you are doing a word recognition of my post.
I asked a question and stated my own opinion, therefore I was asking for other people's opinion about what is sacred, not someone to corect my question or beliefs.

I don't care what you think about my own opinion, but I care what you think of the subject itself... I want to see other perspectives. If you don't understand it there is no need to answer in the first place. Confused, we are / clarity we need... So please don't make it personal calling me troublemaker and so on.

thanks for the kind answers!

when we say beauty, the quality of beauty in a painting?is it in it's colours shapes and geometry or is beauty to be found in our trained eye? or is it something else? where is the beauty ?

Is beauty something that can be considered sacred?

I was expecting to build this definition together with other people, I'm not the authority...or at least I don't want to be. So again, what is sacred?

I am expecting a different POV :) is there anything sacred ?

My only question is, during your lifetime at least, have you seen anyone raise from the dead after days of being dead?
If this world is the best a GOD could do, then he failed horribly. However considering we have free will it is not any GOD's fault that we live like we do today. We are the only responsible beings for what our planet is going through, our lives, our society.

However I cannot hide from the beauty of life and creation itself, and all the wonders it brings, and I will always be confident that there is something better then us that is responsible for all existence. We are a mere manifestation of the universe in the quest of aquiring experience that gets hold in the universal consciousness cup :)

The curent lives we live are our own projection of how we should live, after we followed the plan more or less. If you ain't happy who keeps you from being? Could it be .... you ? :)

To answer the question:

The understanding of facts and what is, turn someone into a smarter - or whatever term you wanna use - being. But the question itself is wrong because it implies comparing 2 or more human beings in respect to some IQ tests which are not even today fully understood or explained completly, so making an assumption on half truth will lead to the same kind of answer ( half answer ).

Comparison is for other fields( technological, etc ), it has no meaning in the psychological field. It is only needed where u can actually compare sizes, weights, dimensions etc, but when dealing with abstract things comparison is useless.

There is no such thing as becoming ( the only thing that ever changes in humans is our perspective of the same thing - by exercising or understanding ). If you are violent ( fact ) and try to become " non-violent" (which is a non-fact, a theory, an idea of non-violence that your mind is projecting), how would you proceed ?

Is time is a movement in knowledge and in measurement?
Are It's dimensions physical (chronological) and psychological ( past, present, future ) ?
Considering the topic " time is an illusion" - I would go even further and say Time is a clown and likes to play mind games on us. Relativity being the first game... :)

What is consciousness ? Is it something else then the content of your mind ?

Is it not your memories, your suffering, your agony, your experiences, your relationships ( at least what you call a relationship ). Is consciousness not an attribute of the mind? Does it exist by itself with no mind to hold it? Did thought created the psychological structure of " ME ?
So is thought the building block of consciousness ?
If so, is it not material?