Comments

  • Euthyphro
    An intuition with which I might sometimes agree; I'm not convinced that "...is good" works a predicate, at least not in the way "...is round" does. But there is much work to be done here, too.Banno

    The “all” is important too, “all good” implies only one pathway to good and a single conclusion at the end of that pathway. I think there are many good ways to get to the good and more than one good to be gotten to in each instance. (Good in the moral sense).

    SO you would say the argument is valid, but relies on a false premise - that there is a god - and so is not cogent.Banno

    False premise (god), a problematic phrasing (“all good”)and it gets circular if “ought” is a reference to what is good. There is morevI think but those are the main cogency lacking factors imo.
  • Euthyphro


    Id call it internally consistent, but not a very good argument based on its premises. I don’t think being “all good” is coherent for example, I have never heard a satisfying explanation of what that would even mean.
    Also it starts with the acceptance that a god exists, which I do not accept.
    So not cogent I’d say, in that any argument that relies on such baseless premises is not very close convincing.
  • Euthyphro


    I think the idea is that omniscience grants certain knowledge, thus a certainty of what is good and this is what merges good and god in the way Janus mentioned. I don’t really buy into any “omni” based arguments myself. Theoretical concepts at best, hardly the basis from which to draw conclusions about anything.
  • Euthyphro


    Ok, thats fair enough.
    The point raised with Fool was that I already know the 101 understanding of it that the video shows.
    I think if you want to explore a classic like this you have to come at it differently, otherwise its not exploring its just repeating it.
    So when I asked about the term I was attempting to start a discussion wherein we go after the “essence” that cannot be expounded in a paragraph. I just prefer to get parameters good and clear first so we don’t waste our time discussing something with different understandings of the words most important to that discussion. Watching the video isnt going to do that, starting a dialogue does so thats what I tried to do.
  • Euthyphro
    But the thing about Plato's dialogues is that it is not about providing answers to simple questions. As Banno noted the dialogue ends in aporia. Most of them do.Fooloso4

    I Understand that, I have read the dialogues. The Socratic method is about the questions and what they reveal.
    Im assuming that you and banno who understand Euthyohro would posit it for a deeper purpose than to just reiterate what you already understand about it. I was just trying to establish what that purpose might be, if there was something being specifically sought in this revisit to a classic.
  • Euthyphro
    Then watch. Or read the texts provided and question.Banno

    Those are options yes, but not as expedient as just having the simple questions answered.
  • Euthyphro


    Sorry i had gone back and edited that post. I accidentally hit the post button.
  • Euthyphro


    Im trying to understand what other people mean by those words, they weren’t words I used so why would I seek to offer my own meaning of the words?
    I can discuss it once its clear to me, and perhaps offer my own thoughts to n meaning then.
    I understand you are being a teacher guy and getting me to think on my own as part of that but that approach does nothing for me. I just find it frustrating/obnoxious, and I mention that only to illuminate not to be snide or flip.
    I already think deeply about things, I’m asking about those words to establish a baseline for a potentially interesting discussion. I promise I’m not trying to be a dick, I just am explaining myself in hopes of reaching a better understanding with you since I’ve had difficulty discussing things with you in the past and I would always want to smooth out those difficulties.
  • Euthyphro


    Could you elaborate what is meant by “piety”? Piety to what?
    Are we just talking about ones dedication to justice and relating that to god being definitive of justice means piety to god is piety to justice?
  • Euthyphro
    What are we discussing? Anything specific or just the Euthyophro story? What is the point if this thread (not intended as snide, honest question)
  • Is it better to learn things on your own?
    It depends on what the goal is. If the goal is to catch fish as efficiently as possible then A), but if the goal was to take up a new hobby or to relax then B) might make more sense.
  • "Bipartisanship"


    So working together is a dogma that needs to die?
  • "Bipartisanship"
    By “bipartisan” do you mean working together?
  • Belief in god is necessary for being good.


    Lol, I know it can be entertaining. Guilty of it myself at times. It’s just going to take forever for him to go away if each of us play with him. :lol:
  • Belief in god is necessary for being good.


    Click ignore dude, you’re wasting your time trying to discuss anything with Bartricks. Check his post history, he isn’t capable of having a discussion please ignore him so he will go away.
  • The why and origins of Religion
    This is a philosophy discussion forum. Read with precision.

    I asked you about the conman, not about the religious conman, as the issue was the contrast between a person's thought expression and their behavior. I said nothing about the religious conman.
    baker

    Well we had been discussing this in a religious context. You were using it in examples and referencing. Then You said this:

    “It's not clear that in the case of the religious not living up to what they profess this is really due to cognitive dissonance. You'd need to rule out deliberate duplicity. Religion's bloody history warrants such scrutiny.“

    So then I posted a direct response:

    I wouldn’t rule out either as an explanation. There are many reasons. Also Cognitive dissonance is observable, primarily through the contrast between a persons thought expression and their behaviour.
    That’s a lot clearer than the basis of your view which is based on your own rigid definition of belief. You entitled to that rigid definition but I see no compelling reason to adopt it myself.
    DingoJones

    To which you responded with:

    So you think that a conman "has" cognitive dissonance?baker

    Which is is either in the context of religion as the rest of our discussion or a non-sequitur.

    Also, this response doesn’t address any point I raised. You ignored those and instead raised a new question of questionable relevance and then acted as though I was being imprecise in my reading. This has a stink of dishonesty to it, you don’t seem to be arguing in good faith here.
    I’m not going to wander around aimlessly with you, answer my comments properly or we’re done here.
  • Moral Cluedo: who is who? A dilemma


    If there was an ultimate objective good and evil and you could measure it enough to know if she me one would qualify as the most good or bad then you would also be able to measure it at any point along the scale as well.
    I’m sorry to say I don’t think your formalization of the dilemma is coherent. You start off with objective morality as part of your premise and then include the subjective morality of the “center” as part of your problem but if there is objective morality then we could just go by that, no subjective quagmire.
  • God Debris


    It’s my own fault for reading his painful exchanges. A momentary lapse I feel better now.
  • God Debris


    I think he just means he doesn’t want to talk to you anymore because you’re an obnoxious douchebag. I could be wrong but it follows from how much of an obnoxious douchebag you are. :roll:
  • The why and origins of Religion


    “ Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”

    -Hitchens.

    One of my favourite quotes of his.
  • The why and origins of Religion


    No, the religious conman is real. I’m not disagreeing that there are religious conmen, no question. I just don’t agree that the average religious person is a conman. Who are they conning, themselves?
    The average religious person has a cognitive dissonance though, I might even go so far as to say that belief in a religion is impossible without one. After all if you follow any one edict in the bible and not follow some other edict then you aren’t really making sense and since the contradictions of the bible make it impossible to follow them all you can’t really religious without making one or more breaches of logic and rationality.
  • Is the Philosophy Forum "Woke" and Politically correct?
    You and your damned reasonableness. Would you please stop it!!!

    I've been in quite a few exchanges like this one, both as a participant and a bystander. In those situations, censorship by bullying is a common tactic. Moderators sometimes are part of that, although others certainly participate too. When a moderator does it it can be a lot more intimidating.
    T Clark

    I can’t help it lol
    To me that’s just part of the battle of ideas. Don’t let people bully you into silence.
  • Is the Philosophy Forum "Woke" and Politically correct?

    The general argument concerning free speech of course has nothing to do with the argument concerning moderation on any particular forum any more than an argument for free food choices obliges an Italian restaurant to serve hamburgers. And yet posters consistently conflate these debates. There’s no inconsistency whatsoever between supporting free speech and running a moderated forum.Baden

    To me it just depends on the rules of the forum. Free speech isn’t always conducive to good philosophical discussion and good discussion is the highest priority here. That’s why we’re here.
  • Is the Philosophy Forum "Woke" and Politically correct?
    It isn't necessary for valid speech to be actively censored in order for it to be attacked. Threats, intimidation, insults, dismissal, and bullying can be effectively used to get you to just shut up. Cases in point:T Clark

    Ya, that’s the “consequences” of free speech that isn’t protected. A nice little sidestep the woke brigade uses to maintain the illusion of moral high ground.

    It is noteworthy that these quotes are all from moderators.T Clark

    I still think your anger is clouding things for you. Baden made excellent points in that exchange you had.
  • Is the Philosophy Forum "Woke" and Politically correct?


    You misunderstand. If someone thinks “wokeness” is the “right” view as implied by other views being the views of “dicks” then that person is dangerously self righteous.
    Like this:
    People who disagree with woke ideology are terrible humans, dicks. Not only should we look down on them but we shouldn’t listen to them either, and we shouldn’t let other people listen to them so let’s make sure they suffer as a consequence of their free speech, hopefully job loss but for sure canceling an event other people wanted to have. You know what? Let’s just call him a racist, or a Nazi, then we scarcely have to justify anything we do any more. We are fighting evil racist nazis after all. Then let’s scour the texting history of everyone we don’t like to see if we can find something we can cancel them over. While we are it, let’s make sure we frame everything in the most severe way possible so that anyone who isn’t woke is a monster...let’s make insults a form of violence...hmmm, not enough let’s make it so it’s violence if you just don’t like what you hear. Perfect. Just remember, only a racist or bigot or nazi doesn’t share our view and rejects our social engineering and language control.

    Thats what woke is about. That’s textbook behaviour of the biggest dicks in history. The self righteousness is in the act of viewing “woke” as a moral high ground over other views. That’s the direct implication of saying opposing views to wokeness are the views of dicks.

    You can not be woke and still not be a dick and there are plenty of woke dicks out there so no woke isn’t just not being a dick. It’s as often the opposite of not being a dick as any other person with any other view is a dick...pretty often.
  • Is the Philosophy Forum "Woke" and Politically correct?
    What does “wokeness” even mean? Is it just “not being a dick”?Michael

    No, it’s more about the kind of people who are so self righteous they can only view people with different views to be “dicks”.
  • The why and origins of Religion
    It's not clear that in the case of the religious not living up to what they profess this is really due to cognitive dissonance. You'd need to rule out deliberate duplicity. Religion's bloody history warrants such scrutiny.baker

    I wouldn’t rule out either as an explanation. There are many reasons. Also Cognitive dissonance is observable, primarily through the contrast between a persons thought expression and their behaviour.
    That’s a lot clearer than the basis of your view which is based on your own rigid definition of belief. You entitled to that rigid definition but I see no compelling reason to adopt it myself.

    To which I replied affirmatively. But see my above post: Some beliefs are inactionable, at least for some people. So one has to wonder why would anyone profess those beliefs? Because of their metavalue? (Ie. because professing such beliefs spares one from being prosecuted by other people?)

    Compare: You and I believe that radium-226 has a half-life of 1600 years; I assume neither of us works in the nuclear industry, so we can't act on this belief. We also don't make a point of telling anyone that we believe that radium-226 has a half-life of 1600 years. So what gives?
    baker

    I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. Sometimes your beliefs are not relevant, your example of immaculate conception doesn’t show that they can’t be acted upon it’s an example of when a person wouldn’t act upon it because they have no reason, it’s irrelevant.
    We would make a point to tell people about radium if we were talking about radium.
    These things that you are talking about are not mutually exclusive with my own explanations. Both are reasons for the divide between thought and action.
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism


    Exactly, it’s not the theistic concepts per say because some of those are A) not original to that theism and B) are not in opposition to non-theists. (The golden rule for example)
  • The why and origins of Religion
    No. They threaten with eternal damnation anyone who doesn't believe like they do. Because of this, they do not deserve the kind of lenience that you describe above and which would apply in other situations, for other beliefs (inlcuding flatearthing and antivaxxing).baker

    It’s not lenience, it is just understanding what’s going on re cognitive dissonance. You asked for an alternative...though it appears your “what else?” was rhetorical in light of that response.

    It's the religious who primarily see belief in such binary terms!baker

    Sure, I will concede binary terms is a common malady of the religious but the comment directed at you was very specific to your view of “belief”. I have no idea if you think in binary terms on anything else or in general the way a religious person might.
    Maybe binary isn’t the right term...I meant to describe how on your view your belief is either backed up by action or it isn’t really a belief. That seems like a binary metric to me.
    Anyway, not meant as derogatory, it’s not like I think anything binary is bad. You just define belief differently that I do on which lead to my misunderstanding but I got it now.
  • What counts as unacceptable stereotyping? (Or when does stereotyping become prejudice?)
    Well I'll press you a little there. Imagine the same social worker applies the same fallacious reasoning in choosing a life partner. It seems to me that this is something one might remonstrate about if one cared for the social worker as a friend, but not something socially unacceptable in the way that it would be applied to professional life, and that because the social worker has power qua social worker as distinct from the privilege of personal foibles in private life. Liberty requires us to accept the one and find the other unacceptable.unenlightened

    The application of fallacious reasoning is the problem. If that problem goes away, any problems in whatever scenario you construct go away too. (Well, the ones pertaining to reasoning anyway)
  • What counts as unacceptable stereotyping? (Or when does stereotyping become prejudice?)
    I like the 'when' in the title. A stereotype is unacceptable when the (pre)judgement is acted on, and is directly proportional to the power and authority of the actor.unenlightened

    I disagree. It depends on what the act is that is based upon on that pre-judgement. And I don’t think it has anything to do with the power and authority of the actor, let alone directly proportional. If the stereotyping is unacceptable, it is unacceptable regardless of the power and authority of the state be making it.

    I don't know if it is accurate on average. It might be misleading anyway, because stereotypically, unhealthy people have less energy and tend to do less and so run to fat because of illness rather than laziness. The stereotype becomes toxic though when it is applied by - say - social workers to separate the deserving from the undeserving poor, because even if it were usually true, if it is not universally true it must result in injustice.unenlightened

    A fair point and I agree with the bolder portion in particular. A good example of a stereotype being unacceptable because it is used in fallacious reasoning.
  • What counts as unacceptable stereotyping? (Or when does stereotyping become prejudice?)
    To the new title:

    Unacceptable stereotyping is when the stereotyping is either based on something other than merely noticing a pattern (like prejudice or bias) or when the stereotype is being used to justify treatment of the stereotyped type.
    Basically there are fair and unfair stereotypes. Unfair stereotypes are the unacceptable ones because they are about the target and not the behaviour/trait we are calling a stereotype.
  • What counts as unacceptable stereotyping? (Or when does stereotyping become prejudice?)
    I think that prejudice and stereotypes do relate to one because when people think in stereotypes, which are like caricatures, it often leads to judgements about people in a negative way. For example, a few people who are struggle with weight issues have told me that they do feel that people make assumptions about them being lazy and a few other things.Jack Cummins

    I wouldn’t call them caricatures, they are generalizations based on common occurrence. Fat people do tend to be lazier. They are unhealthy and have less energy. That’s is a negative judgement sure, but an accurate generalization.
  • The why and origins of Religion


    There is plenty lack of conviction in humanity to go around. People have grown used to compromising themselves and they support each other’s lack conviction by a mutual, unspoken agreement to maintain an illusion of accountability when in fact there is almost none, at any level.
  • What counts as unacceptable stereotyping? (Or when does stereotyping become prejudice?)
    I’m not sure the question makes sense. Stereotyping becomes prejudice when it’s prejudice right? They are not progressional stages of the same thing.
  • Is this language acceptable



    Baden is right T Clark, the portion you quoted isn’t racist. As Baden pointed out the mention of “white” was about people who believe jesus was white not white people.
    It would be analogous to calling a BLM activist a black crusader or something. I don’t think that would be racist and I don’t think it would get deleted or a person banned for saying so but I could be wrong.
    Baden, would I be moderated for calling Malcolm X a black crusader?

    T Clark, I agree that there is racism against white people that is hypocritical and socially acceptable. Academically there is open and accepted racism against white people as well, as when racism is defined as “prejudice plus power”.
    I think you see this too, but in this case I think your sensitivity to it is clouding your view. Perhaps your anger has the best of you here because Baden is right, your position here hasn’t held up to scrutiny.
  • The why and origins of Religion


    Cognitive dissonance, humans can hold two contradictory beliefs at the same time. It doesn’t mean they don’t believe in one or the other, it means they are holding an irrational contradiction. Most of the time it’s because the person doesn’t see the contradiction.
    That makes more sense to me than saying they don’t really believe it considering the kinds of things they do in the name of their beliefs.

    I don’t see “belief” as binary like you do, I think as long as there are differences in how strongly people can believe things you have to accept that conviction and belief are distinct from each other.
  • The why and origins of Religion
    And I doubt such is necessarily always the case.baker

    I agree with that. :up:

    Because I've seen religion and religiosity from the inside. Like I said, I know many religious people, but I yet have to meet one who would actually believe what they say.
    I've seen Catholics go to church, there chant "I'm so sorry I offended thee, God", then go home and get drunk and curse God, Jesus, Mary, and the Holy Roman Church, and continue in that vein until next Sunday, when it is again "I'm so sorry I offended thee, God", and so on.
    baker

    Ah, I see what you are saying now. They contradict what they purport to believe with their actions. To me that’s a lack of conviction rather than lack of belief. I suspect our disagreement is how we are defining belief. Am I right in guessing you would say there is no belief without conviction? That if you really believe something you obligate yourself to act in accordance with it?

    Probably not, and it's not relevant for the most part anyway.baker

    Well I thought it was relevant because I misunderstood your reasoning. My mistake.
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism


    Not all theistic concepts per say, but an opposition to belief in gods/gods as defined by the monotheist religions.
    It’s what people like Amen3017 are talking about when they think they are talking about atheism.
  • Einstein, Religion and Atheism



    I thought Banno was moderating? I assumed there was some PMing going on...
    You guys assuredly need a moderator, complete waste of time otherwise, you guys might as well just keep snipping at each other in this thread if you opt for no moderator.