* applause

This is actually a very interesting response which i dont have time to get into but theres a lot of depth to it. Thank you for this.

Nihilism is armageddon.

You all complicate everything, and miss the entire point of everything else. Nietzsche would have found the original post in this to be ridiculous. The disintegration of morality and purpose which was once provided by the church, is all but gone. With the disappearance of these two things, and through an inability to recapture them through the construction of oneself. We become prone to the philosophy that " nothing matters " in a sense that, our actions come to have no purpose, and the effects caused by them are of no real consequence. On top of that, the search for both morality which governs man whether, and purpose, are two inherent searches which all humans seek. Nietzsche knew that 99% of individuals cant think for themselves, and was trying very hard to warn us that after these aspects disappeared, that a hole would become available to be filled. If we did not fill it, it would be filled in by others.

i have to read up on what mental phenomena is. Thanks for your response, ill be back on here.

We are all socially conditioned. Whoever told you you needed to be saved, probably a materialist, probably playing their part in shredding apart lambs.

You are probably a good guy, probably thoughtful. I dont know you, but i'll assume.

At the same time, as long as we participate in the profit loop, the materialism loop, where we want more and more and more, we are trapped.

Nothing is ever enough.

In my opinion, this is what we need saving from, but its not a wise decision to walk around telling other people where their deficiencies are.

This almost always results in cognitive dissonance and big trouble.

In my personal opinion, as long as we are doing things for EXCESS material gain at the expense of others, we are somewhat compromised and perpetuating the bad pursuit.

People telling people they need to be saved, in my opinion, are lacking true understanding of that which they are trying to express.

We create things, facts aren't created. They exist prior to their discovery, or the possibility of their discovery, and cannot be altered by any creation subsequent to their discovery. Facts are unalterable, things are.

I bet if I gave you my address, you would send me flowers and chocolate.

Ummm, i dont know how to make this clear.

SECURITY. meaning you have the essentials needed for you to survive, and be okay.

So, you dont wake up every morning and say " what will i eat, how will i get water, where will i sleep tonight "

That is because you are secure.

You have security in those areas.

Humans have their " list " of things that make us feel secure. Some overlap across our species, some vary, but we are all subconsciously < using it again , seeking these things so we can feel secure, if not consciously. If we are not consciously seeking these things, then we are on autopilot acting in a reflexive manner to reach the right things.

And look at you, you're absolutey obsessed with this thread, and you've provided nothing useful at all. Why are you so obsessed with me?

But i didnt say any of that, you're just putting words out there that i never said.

Terrapin, you're right, burned is a poor word.

Burned is what i use to describe experience that creates change.

Ill think of a different way to describe it.

And,

I didnt say that utility is the main reason for attraction. I am saying that it is one of them, and a very important factor in how a woman chooses their mate. I dont think thats something controversial to mention, security is subconsciously valuable to both women and men who are looking for potential mates.

but you dont know my age, or anything else about me? So, how could you say that at all?

Jeremiah, please, stop poisoning this. I'm trying to walk through an idea. You're not being helpful at all. You're very destructive. I dont know why you are doing this. I dont know what your motive is. Please, discontinue.

You should be absolutey ashamed of your behavior.

True, its not compicated, to some people. But some people are less comfortable with immediately understanding the real consequences of new practices. The play with fire and get burned is why i use the word " burned ". They might understand it, but its not until they see it affecting things in their environment and its consequences become a potential threat that they start " adjusting " for the sake of their survival.

no, i didnt say that at all?


and, Women and men both being extremely illogical when it comes to our biological reproductive urges is proven. Everywhere. How blind are you ?

quote from jeremiah that i didnt know how to quote. " I understand that you feel you are too weak willed to act logically to your biological responses. However, I think if you actually try it is possible to have an adult conversation before fucking."

Jeremiah,

Yeah what you are talking about is really nice. And i gotta be honest. I prefer your way. The problem with your way, is please, look at the world. Its not working, like, at all. It's not like " have responsible sex " hasn't been suggested " and failed miserably.

" Burned " by the flame of experience. What i mean when i use the word burned is that initially, when something new comes along, people USUALLY have to experience it in some way before they take it seriously. Before they experience it, it hasn't effected them or anyone they know right? So its a concept that they have not witnessed in practice, its just an idea.

Because people are very reluctant to believe that which they have not experienced, if what we are talking about here were implemented, there would be an initial phase of people acting like it had not been. It would take quite a few people getting burned by the process, before it started having the effect we are talking about.



Cindy heard about the new rights.

Initially Cindy didnt understand the consequences of the new rights.

Cindies friend michelle has a child, and the father walks away.

Cindy, through seeing this happen to michelle, now realizes that it is real. It is more than an idea, it is in practice.

Now, is when change happens, for the sake of survival.

Now, the women will change.

Next, men see they cant get laid any more.

Now, the men.

Jeremiah, i appreciate you coming back in and giving your input. you're always such a treat. What you are saying is great in theory, but the advice is not adequate. Meaning, if you got on a podium, in front of the whole world, and spoke to every human and said .

"HAVE RESPONSIBLE SEX AND TALK TO YOUR PARTNER BEFORE HAVING SEX. "

its effect would be pretty unnoticeable. Humans react to things that affect their survival, not advice.

So, so, controversial.

I am thinking about how this would play out.

Theres a catch. If we give both parties the right to veto the child, is it will have an initial period where it wont have sunk in. This will be a period of people " suspending their disbelief " of the new way that we are treating this issue.

Now, this doesnt mean that it wont have the long term effects we are looking for.

What it does mean, is that people will have to be initially " burned " ( experience it themselves ) or witness the new ways effects on others ( experience through others ) to understand that the consequences do exist, and have an effect on both parties.

This initial period is the hard part and is the part where i believe we would see negative consequences.

Those negative consequences being both parties still acting in the same way.

Men will leave the children.

This will be horrible. But when it continues to happen, it will then catalyze the effects we are speaking of.

Women will begin to be very thoughtful about who they choose to reproduce with.

Men will notice this, and we will change our behavior accordingly.

I do believe this change would be adequate incentive for both parties to develop and grow into more thoughtful, aware, and moral creatures.

I agree that there is very little fairness in the situation we are speaking of.

Does anybody here think that implementing this could eventually cause women to choose their mates more carefully, and as a result of this, could have an effect on the behavior of men.

Men, in an effort to become more desirable mates, i hypothesize, could also end up changing their behavior to become more desirable mates.

It would have a character effect.

No longer would utility be the main quality sought after, for security reasons, but now, character and reliability would become sought after and would become the most valuable traits that women looked for in men.

In our system now, a potential mate may be an absolute piece of crap, but if he has a bank account, he will be there to provide.

Therefore, please people, dont take this the wrong way. But in our system, it doesnt matter if the father wants to be there or not. If a women is impregnated by a wealthy man he will be obliged to financially assist her throughout the life of the child.

Man, this idea is really developing.

Would my idea catalyze responsibility or is it utter horseshit?

The main idea is

Men should be off the hook for kids.

They should be able to sever responsibility, and this should be well known before any sex ever happens with their partner.

I predict that just the knowledge of something like this being in effect would have a dramatic change on the way women choose their partners, and the standard which men are expected to BEHAVE if they want to reproduce. I believe it would also change the character of men. Creating the incentive necessary for us to be more moral creatures.

Thank you!

The woman has the power. The man's access to women is quite different than a womans access to men. Women often have an easier time reproducing. I believe there is quite a bit of evidence to show that men do not succeed in reproduction as often. I can find that and post it here.

So, the man is gonna try to have sex, and its gonna be tough.

But he cant have sex unless the woman says its okay. This post was partly about trying to understand a way to catalyze more responsible sexual behavior in women and men.

What ive proposed here wont help men get laid more.

What it might do is give women a reason to choose their mates more responsibly.

Take the threat of becoming pregnant more seriously.

And through that change of decision making, it would alter the economy of sex.

THEORETICALLY, the patterns would change, and decisions would become more responsible.

So THEORETICALLY, in my mind, that could be a possible cause that could catalyze much more responsible sexual behavior.

You can call it sexist. I'm not a sexist, but im getting pretty used to being labelled as one.

Most of what i have proposed here have been things that i believe could lead to more responsible decisions. Men need to be more responsible too. My father was a dead beat. We shouldnt be dead beat people. Thats not a good way to live, its immoral, and i do not agree with it. But in my eyes, we need to catalyze responsibility. feel like if we want to achieve this, we are going to have to hurt some feelings and do some controversial things.

its important to state this so you guys know what im talking about here.

Im not trying to exterminate the kids

Im not trying to leave mothers on their own with a child they cant support

I am not trying to bail pieces of shit out of their mistakes

I am trying to figure out how to create an environment where people think before they act. Maybe, that will come off a bit better than how i have been approaching this.

This is not a developed argument of mine. I came on here to get feedback on the causes and effects of these ideas. i did it poorly. To those who i have offended, it wasnt my intention.

what if she gets sick right, and she totally wanted to kiss, and she was even warned thoroughly about the possible consequences of her actions. This girl knew what could happen. She did it anyways, and now she's sick. She needs medication, she might have to take some time off work, there are actual problems coming from whatever she caught. Is the person she kissed RESPONSIBLE for her situation when she knew exactly what could happen but did it anyways? Should that person be held responsible? True, he did kiss her. But, she could have prevented her situation with something as simple as a choice. Thats all it took to prevent the situation, is just a responsible decision.

This might not be a great analogy. I have been informed by mr crank that i am quite obnoxious and will probably be banned soon. great.

I just dont see the sexism here. I'm suggesting people take responsibility. I understand that you are a professional ad hominem guy, thats fantastic and all. I'm not discriminating against women here, I am claiming that both parties are responsible as individuals for what happens within their body.

If im sick, a woman knows im sick, she agrees to kiss me anyways knowing what could happen as a result, and thn she catchs a cold, am i expected to bring her chicken noodle soup?

We have the right to engage in self sustaining behavior.

If a woman is in control of her own body, then that would imply that they are taking responsibility for what happens within their own body.

You see the man as being attached to the child, and somehow, responsible for it, although it is outside of his own body.

But the woman's body is HER responsibility.

The man is not responsible for what happens within it.

We live in a society where her options are great.

The man in our society, accidently impregnates a girl, and he is deemed responsible for this child.

But the woman is powerful, and is, and will always be, responsible for her own body.

You people dont see that.

You're ignoring the fact that she made a decision to have intercourse just like the man did.

The woman is responsible for her body.

The man is responsible for his.

Giving the woman assistance alleviates her of full responsibility of her body ( meaning, it takes power away from the woman, turning her into a dependent )

I dont really have time for this. I started this as a side thing to see how people would respond.

It appears i have just posted this to be attacked. I would like to thank Tim Wood for your contribution. I want people to challenge my thoughts, not attack them.

thats the history of mankind, if you can see clearly youll understand it, if you cant, you wont. Good luck.

We are god. You cant find the truth unless you have a clear mind. A clear mind is created by alleviating yourself of all of your worries and becoming externally and internally independent. All of the religions have elements of a truth which is real within them. The flame is invisible to all who cant feel its heat though, so, what you get is a bunch of materialists walking around talking about how they cant feel the presence of something greater when its like, no duh. Your mind never stops. When your mind is never clear, you cant come to the realizations that come to those who are in the right state see the truth.

depression is a result of incongruent behavior. Seeking that which you are externally obliged to seek instead of seeking that which you truly desire creates a gap between where you are and where you have become aware you wish to be. Clinical is possible, but becomes more likely the more times you have " the bouts ". If you are early into depression, you can reverse incongruency by dropping out of the incongruent aspects of your existence and changing your environment as soon as possible. The meds wont help unless you change your circumstances. They will just hold you over, and if you dont fix what the problem was, when you get off the meds, this creates bad bad things.

Sometimes it will feel as if the person you are talking with is a wall.

They don’t respond to addressed issues.

These are PRETENDERS

They are trying to suspend you disbelief of the situation by pretending the situation isn’t real.

These people can drive others insane.

Jeremiah, you are really the enemy of truth dude. Look at what you did there. You have completely misquoted me. You are ignorant. You post nothing of any true value. Your whole mission in this thread is to discredit, which is not a valid or productive form of debate.

You havent given me ONE IDEA out of your head yet. Do you have any ideas? Does your mind have anything useful in it?

notice how he just keeps calling me sexist. listen you sheep. bah bah. You are in the adult side of the swimming pool, go back to the kiddie section.

Everyone reading this, you should read through Jeremiahs remarks to see how certain people will try and poison the well of an idea through fallacious, arbitrary attacks on the individual and not the idea. He is a great example.

jeremiah, you dont have an argument to stand on. you are a distraction, and for the good of everyone, you should not be here until you learn enough to actually have a conversation with those who hold ideas different from what you believe to be true.

i repeat, you do not have any valid response to what i am saying here.

I REPEAT, JEREMIAH, YOU ARE ONLY CAPABLE OF AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.

you cannot defend your side, all you can do is attack ME, not my IDEA.

When responsibility is not fully our own, it is easy to hold others accountable for our shortcomings. Diffusion of responsibility is the enemy.

please, do not make this about women. I am not sexist. This has nothing to do with either sex. What this has to do with is the situations which are arising from the way we are currently handling this scenario.

The distinction i am making here is that women have a special biological function which tells them to go through with pregnancy even if doing so is illogical, and our society is doing everything possible to perpetuate this sort of behavior.

The each is responsible for themselves is the solution because it takes away the division of responsibility.

no , i am calling people idiots who are slaves to their bodies.

Hi Ranger. If I read you right, you want an argument that relieves males of responsibility for pregnancies they don't want ("the bind we are in). Let's express it categorically - and bluntly: I'm Bob (actually, I'm not) and I'm an opportunistic fucker of females, just like every other red-blooded guy. Further, if any female becomes pregnant, that's her problem and no problem of mine at all.


--

Bob is responsible for bob. And Alice is responsible for Alice. In a world where everyone takes responsibility for themselves, there are not victims.

Bob can try and fuck as many girls as he wants, but with this new system in place, they are going to think quite a bit differently about fucking random gentlemen, such as bob.

--

Any problem with this, so far? Let's stay concrete: Alice is with Bob's child. She seems to think Bob does have a problem, here. What do you say to her claim?

--

Did bob agree to have a child with alice?

Alica has no means to manipulate bob into taking responsibilty for something which she has the opportunity to fix herself.

Bob might have a really great reason for not wanting to father a child with this woman.

Every circumstance is different.

The idea is, is when everyone is taking responsibility for themselves. It doesnt matter.

Bob and Alice are each responsible for themselves.

Bob and alive both decided to have sexual intercourse. Unfortunately, the woman is the one who gets pregnant. Women need to think more carefully about these situations.

We are not incentivizing that with our current system of coming to a " mother to be's " rescue from all angles.

in our current system, a man is absolutey screwed.

If she had to take responsibilty on her own for the child, she would see clearly, but we perpetuate a system which allows her to see a completely unrealistic and fabricated version of her situation.

one where she is more than capable of taking care of a child whether the father wants this to occur or not.

Where are the rights of the man?



And the society I live in does not routinely exterminate unwanted children, but rather tries to value all life. As such they claim from time immemorial a sovereign interest in the welfare of "its" children, its subjects/citizens. This interest runs towards education and well-being. And they seem to think you "have a problem" as well. What do you say to them?

of course we dont " routinely 'exterminate' our unwanted children "
and it would be a reach to say that implementing a system like im talking about would lead to that sort of routine and callous behavior.

LIFE IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.

we should be learning now. The knowledge is out there. What type of parents and environment a child is raised in will have a profound effect on the rest of his life.

His parents will be part of his social conditioning.

They will train him with values, morals, principles, and virtue , ideally ...

but some kids dont get any of this training, because they are raised in a mess.

listen people. I LOVE us. We have so much potential. Men and women are extremely different and we are both EXTREMELY VALUABLE. but we are pitting the sexes against one another.

We need to create lines to understand where responsibility of our acts begin and end.

Both parties are responsible.

But after sex, both parties are responsible for themselves.

The woman has control over her body.

and the man has control over his.

The reason this must be implemented is we are creating an environment which creates an illusory-false capability of the individual to engage in an activity.

What if neither parents are mentally, emotionally, financially, any kind of developed?

What if they are just kids?

What if they are 16?

What if two 16 year olds have sex, a pregnancy occurs, and the girl is SO UNEXPERIENCED and wrecked that she wants to keep it.

this happens.

There are GREAT GREAT PEOPLE WITH GREAT MINDS ON THEIR HEADS.

but humans are complicated, and we are very diverse.

our neurology is doing things.

This is going to be an exciting century of discovery.

We are about to understand how our mind works.

so,

The man isnt going through the same biological processes as her.

He will see the situation more clearly because his chemicals arent " poppin " like hers. He may be releasing cortisol telling him to abandon this. ( please correct me if i am wrong about this )

Her chemicals are now setting up a dopamine chain telling her

" even if he doesnt want the baby, the government will make him help me "

" even if i dont have the money, my family will help "

" even if im 16, im ready to have a baby "

The dopamine chain will set up a starting point, all the landmarks she can visualize, and as far as she can see.

This chemical process will give her the strength to make a really poor decision.


regards, timw

p.s. I prefer a response in the thread - I won't hold you to it, though.


Tim,

im not saying we need to abort all the children. I am saying that society as a whole is acting irrationally. Raising a pattern recognition machine, on this planet, is an extremely complicated process that most people with children were not prepared for.

We need to understand that a pregnancy existing, is not an adequate reason to have a child. The child could be aborted, this will anger many. It could be given up for adoption. The woman can raise it by themselves. The guy could be supportive if the situation is right. The guy might not have any sense, he could be supportive even if the situation is wrong.

But, we cannot keep pushing out children who will grow up without security. We cannot allow others to continue taking advantage of emotional situations to fulfill their biological necessities. A child should be born when two parents are ready.

Lack of security is fear.

Fear, leads to the dark side.

The dark side, leads to trouble.

We are not obliged to take responsibility for others.

We see the immediate emotions of the woman who decides to act rationally.

Very emotional.

But we arent psychic.

How do you know 10 years down the line, that same woman doesnt look back and thank whatever deities exist that she made the responsible decision.

How do you know she doesnt call them man down the line and say

" you know what, we werent ready, im so happy we didnt do that "

" at the time, it just felt like i had to have the child. "

We are not psychics.

We cannot predict how things that happen today will affect us down the line.

I am suggesting we start to try though.

When looking at this issue, try and ignore the immediate situation. Try and envision years down the road instead.

So, come at me.

Hope this is intelligible.

Thanks, Tim.

I will respond to this as soon as possible. Thank you for your perspectives. It's important to get all the sides together on weird ones like this.