If there were such a thing as god, wouldn't it be such that it wouldn't pass judgement nor do anything else in any capacity or else jeopardize free will, being omniscient. Therefore, if such a thing as a god did anything, even say, send his son to pass on his teachings, he would be eliminating free will as he would see the final outcome of this. Or at least he would limit it.

Touche' however If I were living in a deterministic universe, I suppose I could have the illusion that I chose to believe in free will.

So you're saying you have no control over what you believe? So if I am born into a society that believes something or thinks a certain way, I must by extension inherit those beliefs and hold them true. As opposed to determining by myself what seems logical and believable.

Well from what I can tell the reason atheists generally believe that determinism is a necessary aspect of their worldview is because they also hold science and the scientific method to be the ultimate truth. If everything can be broken down reductively into it's parts, then it must be the case that everything can be explained and everything causes everything else, with sufficient knowledge. If the expression of genes and interactions with the environment are the only things that make us who we are, then it stands to reason that everything causes everything else. Of course, I hope that there exists the possibility of chance, by that I mean I hope that it's possible for things to go either way for no apparent reason. From what I've heard maybe quantum mechanics has something to say about that, however, I know fuck all about physics. Actually, there's an interesting lecture I watched by Robert Sapolsky that discusses the topic of the scientific method and seems to suggest that reductionism fails at some point. I don't understand it that well.But yeah, science and atheism kinda tend to go hand in hand.

Thank fuck none of you know me personally, so I can admit to loving this album.

Moral ones perhaps, depends how you define beliefs too, I suppose. Beliefs vs perceptions. So for example the act of taking responsibility for one's own actions, if you believe that everything is a part of a causal chain, the actions are not your own and you cannot atone for them. However if you believe in free will, they are, and you can, because the act being atoned for and the act of atonement are your own. Not the consequence of a monarch butterfly flapping it's wings, wherever monarch butterflies go.

I think you have to have some sort of mental framework with which you view the world, otherwise every action is uncertain in its effects and progressing towards a goal is impossible. You have to believe the ground is solid and not going to cave in at any moment in order to walk steadily on it. You have to believe that lifting weights causes you to be stronger after recovery in order to have the motivation to continue lifting weights. You have to believe bank tellers are not aliens sent from outer space to steal your penis in order to have a normal conversation with them. You have to believe you will be alive tomorrow, in order to plan for your future. So goal directed behavior is impossible without belief of some sort. Or maybe maintaining sanity is what belief is necessary for. I don't know, I'm going to bed, I'll figure it out tomorrow. So now the question is, is belief necessary for action?

Ok, but say you suspend your beliefs, and view the world with a greater degree of uncertainty, aren't you now stuck at an impasse? Unable to move in any direction. Aren't you forced to act and so believe that one is true even if you accept the possibility that the other is correct. Can one act, without belief? You can attempt to hold two opposites in your mind as true, or at least equally uncertain, but at the end of the day, you must act as if one is true. You can maintain openess to change by acknowledging your own inherent fallibility, but one must be more correct, for the time being.

Hi, I'm AlmostOutlier which isn't meant to somehow suggest I'm above average, just that I've never quite fit in. Moderately odd you could say. I won't say that the details of my life are inconsequential, considering they are part of what makes me, me. However they aren't very interesting, so I'll skip the whole, this is what happened and as a consequence this is who I believe I am thing. If I could tell you who and what I exactly am, life wouldn't be so problematic, would it? I joined this forum because I want somewhere to write down and express my thoughts and get feedback on them. Hopefully as a result, becoming a slightly better person. The truth is, other people are necessary, and I need them, as much as I loathe to admit it. So because human connection is necessary both for survival, psychological well being and growth. I have one more reason to join the forum. Anyhow, hi, again, attempting to write in a grammatically correct fashion is taxing, so I hope there's a chill spot on this forum I can go to. I can't stand always sounding like I have a stick irreversibly lodged in my ass. Am I allowed to swear? Wouldn't want to rob any middle aged men of their well cultivated innocence, now would I? Heaven forbid the kids hear, wouldn't want them throwing F-bombs while they watch people impaled on the television.