The UK is currently 6.5% muslim and it's already causing massive social upheaval.

This is nonsense. The people who push this line believe in the great replacement theory. It’s batshit crazy.

And if Hamas were to be eliminated I can assure you Israel has no intention of annexing Gaza and absorbing all of those Gazans into Israel.

I can see that, where will they go?

Yes, I know, but something went wrong and it’s been going wrong for a long time.

Look at it this way, let’s say Hamas is removed from the picture. A peace is agreed and everyone starts to live together as one country. This country would be approximately half Jewish, half Muslim. What would happen if the Muslim population started to outgrow the Jewish population? Presumably in this scenario everyone would have equal rights, could vote in national elections, could stand for office. Would the Jewish population be happy to be ruled by a majority Muslim population, assuming a Muslim party won power?

Ahh, synchronicity. I know that feeling.

In the U.K. a dyke is a lesbian.

I couldn't consider living in the UK (was last there in 2022, was actually standing in the Tower of London at the moment the Queen passed away.) My perception of the UK at the moment is that it's pretty frayed around the edges, and has a lot of dreary towns.

I was in one of my favourite restaurants in the south of France (near Bordeaux). Anyone who was British knew within a few minutes of the announcement. While all the French people around us had no idea.

Yes the U.K. has lots of dreary towns and more recently sink towns. The class divide has increased with enclaves of affluence hidden away here and there. There are some interesting, progressive towns and cities though such as Bristol, Norwich, Brighton, Edinburgh. Even Manchester is having it’s renaissance.

Apparently we are going to have to wait until the rest of civilization catches up with Canada's progressive cannabis laws before we can think about going anywhere. My outlaw days are past.

You can smoke it legally in the Netherlands and I recently heard it was to be decriminalised in Germany. But in reality in the U.K. if you have small amount for personal use at home it’s ok. The difficult part is buying it. But even then the police would only be interested in the dealers. I used to have a couple of skunk plants in pots on my windowsill which provided enough for what I was smoking. I gave it up a long time ago, though, anyway.

Now, does Israel try this? No. It's a homeland for the Jews and others just can fuck off. And that's why in the end it is an Apartheid system, because it has at it's core that similary hostility towards the others, similar to what the white Afrikaaners had in their system for blacks.

I couldn’t have put it more simply myself.

And where did I make such extraordinary claims exactly? Can you quote me verbatim?

I didn’t say you had made such a claim, I wasn’t talking about you, I was talking about claims. But you do appear to be positioning yourself there in relation to my claim. Unless, you are in some kind of neutral position. As far as I’m concerned to even consider that this Israeli administration we are discussing could be a workable solution, unless it is imposed with brute force is entirely fool hardy, or naive. It’s not going to happen.

While from your neutral position you are happy to use analysis to deconstruct what I was saying.

You mean that the burden of proof is all on me and you have to do nothing other than making claims? You didn’t even offer a clarification of what you mean by “Apartheid state”.

But I’m realising that you are not committing to a position on these questions. You’re just shooting down what people say. I ask for a counter argument and none is provided. You comment on some issue, but thats not making claims.

Sure, if you suspect a disagreement between us over the notion of “state” or “human”. The point is that YOU feel compelled to call Israel an “Apartheid state” and want me to agree with you since you suspect a disagreement (and rightly so).

looking at your discussion with SSU about what apartheid is I’ll give it a miss for now.

I’m not criticising your approach or what you’re saying, it just feels a bit to much like a philosophy tutorial, where your only input is to mark my homework.

P.S. For some reason, I do not get notifications from you, even if you reference my nickname.

Sorry it’s something about the website that I haven’t got around to working out. Something to do with the quote feature I think.

Dude, really? Is that the most you can do?

Well I can list more reasons, it’s quite a long list. Also it’s the direction of travel. The notion that an Israeli administration that would be introduced in Gaza would be an improvement on what was there before October 7th. Or that it would even come close to something acceptable to the Palestinian population is an extraordinary position.

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”

You mean that the burden of proof is all on me and you have to do nothing other than making claims? You didn’t even offer a clarification of what you mean by “Apartheid state”.

Perhaps we should try and agree what a state is first, or what a human is.

But why do you believe that if Hamas surrenders, the people of Palestine will be plunged into an even more oppressive situation? What evidence do you have? What reasons?

Simply because the situation has worsened (the means and practice of the Israeli government and the IDF.)
This is self evident for these reasons;
The stand off between Israel and the leaders of Palestine has worsened and deepened over a long time, as each new conflict occurs. It only ever gets worse, not better.
There is clear evidence of Israeli leaders becoming militant, radicalised. This will only make the situation worse and make it more difficult for Israeli’s to trust Palestinians.
Their insensitivity to the plight as evidenced by their actions re’ Gaza and concerns of Palestinian people, suggests that they will remain insensitive in any subsequent Israeli controlled state.

Yes you said that so many times. And the first time was already one time too much.

I will stop when you agree with me about that. Or demonstrate that it is not the case.

What is your argument here? The Jewish psyche? You should suggest Israelis your therapist, I guess.

You proposed a confederated solution. My point was that such a confederated solution would amount to another form of apartheid by a different name.

In Britain some cities seem large when they aren’t when compared to cities in other countries.

Brighton is known as London on Sea. Nice place and cool with an alternative slant and a Green MP. Personally I find it to big and busy, I would prefer Lewes just a short train ride away.

You’re making some interesting points, but there’s something you keep pushing for which seems wrong headed to me. These two paragraphs distill it quite well.

Does what you are saying imply that horrors of the war (like the ones we see in Gaza) or demand for unconditional surrender constitute a strong argument against durable peace in the region? Because history shows also that one can demand and obtain UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Potsdam-Declaration) and have prospects of a durable peace after enough devastation (including civilians, kids, cities) and even after heavy bombings and nukes.

I think the Post-Dam declaration is a poor comparison, but I can use it to make my point. The people who were surrendering in Japan, the countrymen of Japan, not the imperialist leaders, but the people. Were living a free and fair life before and after the war. They weren’t born into a traumatised oppressed population as Palestinians are. If Hamas, surrenders now. The people of Palestine will be plunged into an even more oppressive situation. From an oppressive apartheid state before the war and into a perniciously oppressive apartheid state after the war. This will only make Israel’s problems worse and lead to a repeat of October 7th, or worse.

For example, my understanding is that Netanyahu is going to destroy Hamas (and other militant groups’) military capacity and identified combatants in Gaza as thoroughly as possible and impose a West Bank regime in Gaza. Maybe complemented with some agreements with Egypt to accept and keep refugees in Sinai as long as needed.

This West Bank regime is the perniciously oppressive apartheid state I referred to.
I don’t see a solution here, a confederate state would be the same in all but name.

As I was saying the glorification of the victims of October 7th to justify ethnic cleansing and genocide.

You’ve just described Palestinians as sub human, as animals. And we know what humans do to animals.

Eastern thinkers are more adept at recognizing nothingness as if it was like a western substance, but they avoid substance talk by leaving things more mystical and less defined (as nothingness would have to be less defined)

I have found that in a study of eastern philosophies one does end up at the point of nothingness, a nothing that is also everything. An everything that is no thing, but all things and no one thing, but less than one, while being ever present.

They do also say that there are beings who go beyond this two dimensional thinking, this human thought process. Also that there are deities in more exalted states of being. This would lead me to the conclusion that the problem we are discussing is something to do with the human condition. It is a peculiarity of what it is to be human. Perhaps a human is at that point where a mind is birthed in a corporeal being. We look around ourselves and see countless other beings who don’t have this faculty of mind. Animals and plants. I find that through being with, communing with animals enables me to be mindless too. They teach mindlessness by example, yet we are one of them. We can be mindless like them, in fact we probably are most of the time, but just don’t realise it.

This brings me to mystical practice. I struggled with the conundrum you describe, amongst others and at some point began to realise that there is another way around the problem. This process was helped by being involved in the New Age movement back in the 1990’s. There were all kinds of crazy ideas and practices going around, it was a time of breaking boundaries, conventions, breaking out of oneself. I realised that these conundrums could be solved, bypassed understood through a practice, a process, a life process, or journey. Like the communion with plants and animals I describe. It’s like you put the mind to one side for a moment and move forward through life. When you bring the mind back in you have changed, something has moved. This gives the possibility for a comparison between the two states, a quadratic equation as a metaphor.

There are numerous other techniques for moving forward like this. One which adds another dimension to this is the idea of the higher self. Basically you consider, or imagine, that there is a higher self in you which is wise, or has a direct connection to a god, or higher being. You imagine entering into a conversation with this higher self. Once acquainted you develop a communion, or close connection, an understanding. At this point, it is nothing more than a thought experiment, an idea. However if adopted as a practice, it opens up the opportunity for it to become more than this. Just like the process of developing a communion with the plants and animals I described, you can also enter into communion with your higher self (if there is one) and with a higher being (if there is one).

This gives one the opportunity to move forward in a number of directions.

Thankyou Wayfarer, you really are a font of knowledge these days.

Yes, in the U.K., the government is pushing the line, that adapting to climate change, net zero policies are expensive. That the poor will end up paying more and due to the severe economic circumstances, they are going to have to move more slowly to help out the poor. We are helping the poor by not addressing climate change.

Maybe the approach could be to reflect on the concepts of import (to a given individual) from the western perspective (since same is unavoidable, like thinking in English is to me), and then, from there, find the parallels in Eastern traditions.

Yes, this is something I’ve tried to do on occasion. There have been attempts to introduce eastern ideas to the West from the pioneering work of HP Blavatsky in the 1890’s followed by numerous Theosophers in the early twentieth century, followed by the hippy movement in 1960’s. Then the New Age movement in the 1980’s and 90’s. With the steady spread of Buddhism throughout the West during the 20th Century. Which now has a world wide reach. This combined with migration of people from east to west and west to east is bringing about the integration of eastern and western philosophies in societies.
It seems to be in academic circles that there is a catch up required.

One eg., upon my own reflections, I come across the problem of Mind and conclude, on my own, from within my western narrative, that Mind might not have any corresponding Being, or Reality, "driving", "grounding" or "behind" it, and that it might just be structured by empty signifiers. Comparing that to eastern philosophies, I find the principle of Sunyata (emptiness of Reality). While I believe that the Mahayanists might have gone too far, and that Sunyata applies only to the constructed reality of human experience, yet still, there is a workable parallel.

Yes an interesting parallel. The Western academic tradition seems to be stuck on a circle, or wheel of logic, like samsara from which it cannot escape and which is abstracted from the real world.

We are all humans, East and West, drawing upon the same nascent constructions input into all of us, and developed collectively throughout the generations. It wasn't just Schopenhaur who first incorporated the East into Western philosophy. I may not be best suited to demonstrate this, but I feel it is not unreasonable for an historian of philosophy to find what is traditionally thought of as eastern patterns weaved through western thought and vice versa, since the presocratics, and likely much earlier.

Yes, I would expect there to be a lineage stretching back over the millennia derived from sources further east. In a sense the Western tradition is a recent, more modern metricated system of thought based on the reductionism of Aristotle. While leaving behind the more reflective philosophies. Perhaps it is time for thinkers to walk backwards and pick up from where they left off.

Your "obstacles" 1 to 3, (which I know you are exposing and not endorsing) are ways in which we "deliberately" construct barriers out of prejudice.

Yes, it is the curse of materialism.

1. "test" it? arguably the east has a better test, doing, i.e. yoga and meditation. If mind's conclusions are admittedly questionable (hence, phenomenology), what better test than to silence mind?

I was thinking more of a test within academic circles. There is no way to anchor the theory of a “spiritual realm” into philosophy. There is the theological tradition as I mentioned, but this seems to have been disregarded. Philosophy is happy to talk about the spiritual, or the divine. But it is increasingly seen as nothing more than a hypothetical, a flight of fancy. (Although I would accept that there is a creeping sense of something else to reality, but which is undefined.)

2. "physical world?" arguably sitting in meditation for the purposes of silencing the chatter and perceiving the world through the Body for a change, is exactly approaching reality through the physical world. What is more empirical than what your body tells you without interference of concepts?

Yes, very much so. A module dedicated to being a being, absent the mind. The acceptance that a being isn’t just a mind, there are other layers, realities, experiences, more immediate, more real than thoughts.

3. "subjugation of mind to soul?"

Forgive my Theosophical terminology. What I am referring to is the notion that a being can become a pure still being absent the mind. When the mind is banished, the being has not been banished, the being is still present. The word “soul” has a lot of baggage, a better word might be something like Atman, the atmic, or something.

Firstly, that is the problem I see with western metaphysics in the traditions of Plato, Descartes, Hegel etc. Moreover, Mahayana blatantly denies the "soul." The subjugation part, the so called goal to reach Satori/Kensho or Moksa, is intended to liberate you from the mundane chattering of the Subject Self. Descartes tried to do the same but got stuck in the chattering and gave privileged status to the Subject Self, I (see Heidegger's ontic, everyday vs ontological Being, which I think, he ultimately remains in the ontic everyday, but that's another discussion).

Yes, they were already stuck on the wheel of mind by that point.

Thanks for the suggestions, Harmless looks interesting I’ll give it a look.

We each cast our net depending on our place and time and come up with different sources. For me it was a mixture of the more orthodox Theosophy and the far out new age movement in the 90’s.

An infinite number of omnipresent gods, perhaps.

The obstacles I found when presenting mysticism to philosophers could be delineated into three categories;

1, It is a mythology, or fairytale, with no logical basis, there is no starting point from which to philosophically test it. Some of the people who level this criticism are idealists. They are stuck in ideas that necessitate a logical foundation.

2, It doesn’t have any basis in the physical world. It’s magical thinking about imaginary beings, in an imaginary world, who never turn up in the physical world. To the people who level this criticism, there is only a physical world.

3, It proposes the transfiguration of the self, this necessarily includes the subjugation of the mind, in favour a soul, or spirit, or something which is not in the physical world. To the people who level this criticism, the mind is everything, we are logical minds and there is nothing else.

I was aware of the elevation of the victims of October 7th victims to an exalted state, even deification, martyr’s ( a Muslim martyr has a lower status than a martyr in a Western country), in the West a martyr has a god like status. This cry across the airwaves was deafening right from day one. The atrocities were on a new level, so bad that any kind of response, retaliation was justified. Even ethnic cleansing, genocide was on the table.

No worries. How many gods, or deities are there on the head of a pin.

That’s why I said Deity.

So mind is fully there, but still I ask the question and wonder if I can see one distinct feature about "mind" that is there. And we have nothing.

Mysticism does address this and go beyond this insurmountable barrier. But academically the teaching is spread across a broad span of disparate and unrelated sources. The main religions each have mystical schools and traditions. There all pretty much say the same thing, so a study of these is worthwhile and identifying the similarities is a good way of finding one’s own way through without being drawn into one school’s anachronistic practices.

As far as I have found only one school has developed a system of practice which introduces one on to the mystical path. Hinduism, via yoga teachings. Personally I use the Hindu scriptures of Patanjalli as interpreted by Alice Bailey in the book The Light of The Soul**. I have found that each mystic searches for teaching or texts until they find the one that works for them.

There is no one definitive teaching, or truth on this. But in reality it is a process of personal self discovery.

**I can link to the book later. You can access it for free as a PDF file, along with all the Alice Bailey publications.(you would be jumping in at the deep end, I would be happy to help out)

Either way, it's possible that Western Philosophy "proper" (with some exceptions) only avoids these schools because of prejudice concerning connections with religion. And that, to the former's detriment.

I have been struggling with this for years and have tried many times on this forum to make progress. But it always stalls and doesn’t even get started. There are eastern philosophies which work, but the fact that they start from the assumption of God, gods, deity, Western philosophy just doesn’t go there, or reduces it to some peculiarity of the human mind. Essentially dismissing it. Theology does go there, but seems to disappear up its own derrière once the Catholic apologists get to work. It accepts mysticism and that mysticism can be a real pursuit, but doesn’t really get past the enthralled saints like St Francis for example.

I would be happy to lay out the obstacles, some insurmountable in terms of philosophy that I have encountered.

(Not just now, I have to go to work shortly)

As I thought.

With the support of Egypt. The Arab countries don't want them in either due to their history. Whether "prison" is an appropriate term is debatable. Gazans can certainly get out of Gaza and there are beautiful homes there. Ultimately, no one really trusts them with their borders... and who would? I'm sorry, but national security comes first. Tons of aid has come to Gaza. By letting them control their own border and imports that creates a serious national security threat. It's not just Israel -- none of their neighbors want them having unfettered access to their borders where they'll be able to import whatever.

Struth, someone has boiled your brain, unless it is just performative.

And that's the most compelling argument you could offer, so far.

A statement of fact actually.

Besides I’m not playing any geopolitical chess.”
“I know, but you have been using it as a hammer.

I thought this was quite a good analysis.

Yeah Exon Mobil was there right at the beginning of climate change denial. They played a big part in spreading the denial and disinformation.

It was reported on BBC radio4 at lunchtime and it’s on sky news now.

I have verified this through multiple sources.
https://x.com/ToryFibs/status/1763178221149782108?s=20

Sure, they are not the only ones to live in refugee camps. And it is reported that they aren’t even listed in the five largest refugee camps in the World:

As a percentage of the population?

Anyway, primary trigger might be more important than primary cause.

As I said, I’m interested in conceptual analysis, so if I can’t split hairs here, in a philosophy forum, where else can I? Besides I find it a worthy exercise as long as it helps better understand things.

Yes, of course please continue, I would like to myself on occasion. But I am short of time and level of concentration at the moment due to other commitments. Also I am more someone who looks for the root of things, or bigger picture in current affairs.

You do not seem able to provide a compelling argument for why it wouldn’t possible to separate moral case from a legal case.

You seem to impugn me here, (this is not the only time.)
Perhaps I would not mention the moral case (to separate it) if I were in a court of law (although I expect I would mention it)

This doesn’t need to be framed in human rights terms, not even for the international law:

The victims of oppression here have had various human rights violated. This reflects on the actions of the occupying, or controlling authority under which they are subject and under which they are confined. Yes you are right about nation state status etc. But we are talking about an apartheid state confining a subjugated population. Part of the case of the Palestinians is this treatment, it’s disregard of their rights and liberty against their will.

Besides I’m not playing any geopolitical chess.

I know, but you have been using it as a hammer.

I won’t answer any other points in your post here, because the discussion is expanding and I don’t have enough free time to address long posts right now. (But thanks for engaging and please continue, it is enjoyable).

I don’t recognise your characterisation. It’s true that in the post WW2 settlement there was a tacit understanding that Germany in particular and Europe in general were not going to fully re-arm, but rather the U.S. and U.K. would maintain a strong presence and provide security under the umbrella of NATO.

At the very moment Putin threatened NATO with nuclear weapons on the day of the invasion of Ukraine, that understanding ended and we will now see the re-arming of Europe. The U.S. will be glad of this as they are likely to become overstretched if they pivot to the east.

The racism issue has become politically weaponised in the U.K. However the reality on the ground is not so bad. Although there are workforce issues and residential status issues due to Brexit.

By the way, the constituencies of Norfolk are Conservative. The Labour Party no longer held the urban constituencies they once held in Norwich North and Great Yarmouth, leaving them with no MP's. Norfolk
I don't know if this is a paradox or a contradiction. :chin:

Norfolk is Conservative due to the farming community and the middle and upper middle class communities. I would think a lot of them are changing their minds about now. The Green Party is doing well in Norfolk and Suffolk. Norwich is a really nice city, not to big, about 250,000, or there about with a rich history and cultural life. Definitely worth a visit.

I know the Wye valley well, I particularly like Hay on Wye and Monmouth.

Very Alan Partridge, ha haaa haaaaa.

If you do make your way to Norfolk you would be very welcome to visit.

Agree about the class divide and cap doffing in Suffolk. I much prefer Norfolk in this respect.