but a Christian missionary reporting this is extremely suspect — AmadeusD

The quote did not come from a Christian missionary, it came from my readings about the Mohawk Nation and Sir William Johnson.

You seem to be intent on dismissing the idea that Indigenous peoples could come up with heart-driven philosophies on their own. I'm not sure why.

have you ever heard of "The Words That Come Before All Else."

https://www.imaginalfutures.com/islands/thewordsthatcomebeforeallelse

Written in a language older than English, these verses were/are recited at the beginning of every gathering. (Yes, it takes a while to recite. The colonials used to complain about all the "time-wasting" rituals of the Natives. The Europeans just wanted to get down to business.)

Haudenosaunee Thanksgiving Address

The People

Today we have gathered and we see that the cycles of life continue. We have been given the duty to live in balance and harmony with each other and all living things. So now, we bring our minds together as one as we give greetings and thanks to each other as people.

Now our minds are one.

The Earth Mother

We are all thankful to our Mother, the Earth, for she gives us all that we need for life. She supports our feet as we walk about upon her. It gives us joy that she continues to care for us as she has from the beginning of time. To our mother, we send greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Waters

We give thanks to all the waters of the world for quenching our thirst and providing us with strength. Water is life. We know its power in many forms- waterfalls and rain, mists and streams, rivers and oceans. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the spirit of Water.

Now our minds are one.

The Fish

We turn our minds to all the Fish life in the water. They were instructed to cleanse and purify the water. They also give themselves to us as food. We are grateful that we can still find pure water. So, we turn now to the Fish and send our greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Plants

Now we turn toward the vast fields of Plant life. As far as the eye can see, the Plants grow, working many wonders. They sustain many life forms. With our minds gathered together, we give thanks and look forward to seeing Plant life for many generations to come.

Now our minds are one.

The Food Plants

With one mind, we turn to honor and thank all the Food Plants we harvest from the garden. Since the beginning of time, the grains, vegetables, beans and berries have helped the people survive. Many other living things draw strength from them too. We gather all the Plant Foods together as one and send them a greeting of thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Medicine Herbs

Now we turn to all the Medicine herbs of the world. From the beginning they were instructed to take away sickness. They are always waiting and ready to heal us. We are happy there are still among us those special few who remember how to use these plants for healing. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the Medicines and to the keepers of the Medicines.

Now our minds are one.

The Animals

We gather our minds together to send greetings and thanks to all the Animal life in the world. They have many things to teach us as people. We are honored by them when they give up their lives so we may use their bodies as food for our people. We see them near our homes and in the deep forests. We are glad they are still here and we hope that it will always be so.

Now our minds are one

The Trees

We now turn our thoughts to the Trees. The Earth has many families of Trees who have their own instructions and uses. Some provide us with shelter and shade, others with fruit, beauty and other useful things. Many people of the world use a Tree as a symbol of peace and strength. With one mind, we greet and thank the Tree life.

Now our minds are one.

The Birds

We put our minds together as one and thank all the Birds who move and fly about over our heads. The Creator gave them beautiful songs. Each day they remind us to enjoy and appreciate life. The Eagle was chosen to be their leader. To all the Birds-from the smallest to the largest-we send our joyful greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

The Four Winds

We are all thankful to the powers we know as the Four Winds. We hear their voices in the moving air as they refresh us and purify the air we breathe. They help us to bring the change of seasons. From the four directions they come, bringing us messages and giving us strength. With one mind, we send our greetings and thanks to the Four Winds.

Now our minds are one.

The Thunderers

Now we turn to the west where our grandfathers, the Thunder Beings, live. With lightning and thundering voices, they bring with them the water that renews life. We are thankful that they keep those evil things made by Okwiseres underground. We bring our minds together as one to send greetings and thanks to our Grandfathers, the Thunderers.

Now our minds are one.

The Sun

We now send greetings and thanks to our eldest Brother, the Sun. Each day without fail he travels the sky from east to west, bringing the light of a new day. He is the source of all the fires of life. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Brother, the Sun.

Now our minds are one.

Grandmother Moon

We put our minds together to give thanks to our oldest Grandmother, the Moon, who lights the night-time sky. She is the leader of woman all over the world, and she governs the movement of the ocean tides. By her changing face we measure time, and it is the Moon who watches over the arrival of children here on Earth. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Grandmother, the Moon.

Now our minds are one.

The Stars

We give thanks to the Stars who are spread across the sky like jewelry. We see them in the night, helping the Moon to light the darkness and bringing dew to the gardens and growing things. When we travel at night, they guide us home. With our minds gathered together as one, we send greetings and thanks to the Stars.

Now our minds are one.

The Enlightened Teachers

We gather our minds to greet and thank the enlightened Teachers who have come to help throughout the ages. When we forget how to live in harmony, they remind us of the way we were instructed to live as people. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to these caring teachers.

Now our minds are one.

The Creator

Now we turn our thoughts to the Creator, or Great Spirit, and send greetings and thanks for all the gifts of Creation. Everything we need to live a good life is here on this Mother Earth. For all the love that is still around us, we gather our minds together as one and send our choicest words of greetings and thanks to the Creator.

Now our minds are one.

Closing Words

We have now arrived at the place where we end our words. Of all the things we have named, it was not our intention to leave anything out. If something was forgotten, we leave it to each individual to send such greetings and thanks in their own way.

Now our minds are one.

Chimps have behaviors. We cannot tell if they have "principles". Eusocial (haplodiplontic) insects practice altruistic behaviors, too. Are these based on moral principles? — Ecurb

the point is that humans and chimps are closely related, and notions of right and wrong first evolved in an ancestor we shared.

We are not closely related to insects, so whatever "similarities" we find between us and them is an example of convergent evolution and outside of this discussion

whatver it takes to keep the fantasy alive. — NOS4A2

Fantasy? No, Trump is very real, and if you read the analysis of Hitler prepared for the Office of Strategic Services by Harvard psychologist Dr. Henry A. Murray, in 1938 – I believe, if you are living in the real world, you might recognize someone you know, someone who is currently threatening world war -

Murray pegged Hitler’s personality as “counteractive narcissism,” a type that is stimulated by real or imagined insult or injury. According to Murray, the characteristics of this personality type include holding grudges, low tolerance for criticism, excessive demands for attention, inability to express gratitude, a tendency to belittle, bully, and blame others, desire for revenge, persistence in the face of defeat, extreme self-will, self-trust, inability to take a joke, and compulsive criminality. Murray concluded that Hitler had these characteristics (and others) to an extreme degree and lacked the offsetting qualities that round out a balanced personality.

That depends on what you mean by "morality". Obviously, all female mammals (and many non-mammals) care for their children and give them scarce resources they could use themselves. Does this constitute "morality"? Are all behaviors of which you approve forms of "morality"? — Ecurb

Morality looks at questions of right and wrong. The ability to judge between right and wrong must come before any conclusion about what is right and wrong.

Based on the spelling of "behaviour", we cannot fully trust this dictionary — Ecurb

Lol, why not? That's how we spell it here, in Canada, and in the UK, too

Indeed, "principles" are clearly based on language and are clearly cultural — Ecurb

even chimps have principles about fairness and social rules

not exclusively "neurological". — Ecurb

I've never used the word "exclusively" - I've only referred to the original source of our morality - clearly, culture plays a role in shaping principles

As far as which came first -- how can we know? — Ecurb

trust the science?

Plunder is as plunder does.

She dedicated it to him upon winning it. You didn’t know that? — NOS4A2

Yes, I knew that. Because she thought Trump could help install her party as the truly democratically elected party in Venezuela, but that wouldn't work for Trump, would it? But, she's still putting her hopes on him. She really has no choice at this time.

Did Vemeer dedicate it to him and finally give it to him? Then the analogy is a stretch. — NOS4A2

Do you believe Machado gave it up willingly? That would be a naive position.

Washington, via Trump, is playing you and other parts of the world like a fiddle. — Tzeentch

If this is your take on Trump's words and actions, then you are living outside of reality as much as Trump is.

Did you have a read of the letter Trump sent to the government of Norway (a couple of posts up)

Here's what Anne Applebaum wrote about it -

One could observe many things about this document. One is the childish grammar, including the strange capitalizations (“Complete and Total Control”). Another is the loose grasp of history. Trump did not end eight wars. Greenland has been Danish territory for centuries. Its residents are Danish citizens who vote in Danish elections. There are many “written documents” establishing Danish sovereignty in Greenland, including some signed by the United States. In his second term, Donald Trump has done nothing for NATO—an organization that the U.S. created and theoretically leads, and that has only ever been used in defense of American interests. If the European members of NATO have begun spending more on their own defense (budgets to which the U.S. never contributed) that’s because of the threat they feel from Russia.

But what matters isn’t the specific phrases, but the overall message: Donald Trump now genuinely lives in a different reality, one in which neither grammar nor history nor the normal rules of human interaction now affect him. Also, he really is maniacally, unhealthily obsessive about the Nobel Prize. The Norwegian Nobel Committee, not the Norwegian government and certainly not the Danish government, determines the winner of that prize. Yet Trump now not only blames Norway for failing to give it to him, but is using it as a justification for the invasion of Greenland.

The following letter from Trump to Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre was forwarded by the NSC staff to multiple European ambassadors in Washington.

In addition to a poor grasp of history, Trump seems to be saying "Nyah, nyah, you didn't give me the prize, so I am going to start a war."

Dear Jonas:

Considering your Country decided not to give me the Nobel Peace Prize for having stopped 8 Wars PLUS, I no longer feel an obligation to think purely of Peace, although it will always be predominant, but can now think about what is good and proper for the United States of America. Denmark cannot protect that land from Russia or China, and why do they have a “right of ownership” anyway? There are no written documents, it’s only a boat that landed there hundreds of years ago, but we had boats landing there, also. I have done more for NATO than any person since its founding, and now, NATO should do something for the United States. The World is not secure unless we have Complete and Total Control of Greenland. Thank you! President DJT

https://x.com/nickschifrin/status/2013107018081489006?s=20

Just grab everything… grab grab grab. — Christoffer

I am reminded of Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, and the famous quote from it -

Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”

Looks like Trump has a Nobel Prize — NOS4A2

Yes, and Hitler had Vemeer's The Astronomer - for a while

(He'd plundered it, and added it to his personal collection)

So "written in the heart" does come across as an odd turn of phrase for a Native American — wonderer1

Actually, this was my original quote -

"You white folk need a Big Book to tell you what is right, but what is right is engraved upon my heart."

Nevertheless, the sentiment remains

You clearly haven't understood anything I've said — Wayfarer

I feel the same way.

The populists inhale it nonetheless. — jorndoe

Something I find frustrating in trying to understand, and something that causes me much consternation. Reluctantly, I have come to accept that there a great number of ignorant minds vulnerable to manipulation if you inflame hatred strong enough in them.

If brain capacities are not the result of our evolution, what is your alternative explanation?
— Questioner

The question is improperly framed as it presumes that morality can be explained by neurology.

WE learn more about the development of moral codes by studying the development of moral codes than by studying the human brain. .
— Ecurb — Wayfarer

The proposition put forward in the OP is that there is "no secular basis for morality."

This implies that all morality grows out of a religious tradition.

No. The morality came first. We evolved the neurological capacities for it. Our evolution as a social species refined it. Toss in the capacity to invent supernatural beings, and the evolution of a theory of mind, and we see the rise of things like religious rituals, myths, taboos, and burial practices.

As the practices spread, politics enters the fray, and voila, organized religion.

A Christian missionary trying to reduce harm to the indigenous would certainly try to align their beliefs with Christian beliefs — AmadeusD

I did not read anything in the book that suggested this. I have every reason to believe that Heckewelder produced a faithful and accurate account.

(that quote "written on our hearts" is overly Christian) — AmadeusD

Overtly? Surely, you must realize that the idea of something being written in the heart, of wisdom being found there, crosses all cultures and transcends time. The idea that the heart feels, and remembers, is a human experience that is not unique to Christians.

The ancient Chinese text - the Tao - tells us "truth is known in the heart."
Plato said, "Truth is inscribed in the soul." (Not the heart, but the same concept)
A Sumerian proverb tells of truth being "held in the heart."

Below is a few passages from Instruction of Ptahhotep - Egyptian, circa approximately 2040 to 1782 BC - you can read it online - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/30508/30508-h/30508-h.htm

Follow thine heart during thy lifetime; do not more than is commanded thee. Diminish not the time of following the heart; it is abhorred of the soul, that its time [of ease] be taken away. Shorten not the daytime more than is needful to maintain thine house. When riches are gained, follow the heart; for riches are of no avail if one be weary...

If he hesitate to open his heart, it is said, 'Is it because he (the judge) doeth the wrong that no entreaties are made to him concerning it by those to whom it happeneth?' But a well-taught heart hearkeneth readily...

If thou wouldest be a wise man, and one sitting in council with his overlord, apply thine heart unto perfection.

the same sort of splits as the "noble savage" myth has us peddling. — AmadeusD

No, the "noble savage" concept is a European creation that reduces and simplifies the sophisticated societies the Indigenous peoples developed before the settlers got here.

You did not answer my questions -

If brain capacities are not the result of our evolution, what is your alternative explanation?

How do you separate a species from their structure and function? — Questioner

What's happening in the States, and Trump's approach to foreign policy, are weighing heavy on my mind. Below is copied a post he made today. He writes - "World Peace is at stake!"

This twisted person is a grave danger and threat to world peace.

We have subsidized Denmark, and all of the Countries of the European Union, and others, for many years by not charging them Tariffs, or any other forms of remuneration. Now, after Centuries, it is time for Denmark to give back — World Peace is at stake! China and Russia want Greenland, and there is not a thing that Denmark can do about it. They currently have two dogsleds as protection, one added recently. Only the United States of America, under PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP, can play in this game, and very successfully, at that! Nobody will touch this sacred piece of Land, especially since the National Security of the United States, and the World at large, is at stake. On top of everything else, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, The United Kingdom, The Netherlands, and Finland have journeyed to Greenland, for purposes unknown. This is a very dangerous situation for the Safety, Security, and Survival of our Planet. These Countries, who are playing this very dangerous game, have put a level of risk in play that is not tenable or sustainable. Therefore, it is imperative that, in order to protect Global Peace and Security, strong measures be taken so that this potentially perilous situation end quickly, and without question. Starting on February 1st, 2026, all of the above mentioned Countries (Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, The United Kingdom, The Netherlands, and Finland), will be charged a 10% Tariff on any and all goods sent to the United States of America. On June 1st, 2026, the Tariff will be increased to 25%. This Tariff will be due and payable until such time as a Deal is reached for the Complete and Total purchase of Greenland. The United States has been trying to do this transaction for over 150 years. Many Presidents have tried, and for good reason, but Denmark has always refused. Now, because of The Golden Dome, and Modern Day Weapons Systems, both Offensive and Defensive, the need to ACQUIRE is especially important. Hundreds of Billions of Dollars are currently being spent on Security Programs having to do with “The Dome,” including for the possible protection of Canada, and this very brilliant, but highly complex system can only work at its maximum potential and efficiency, because of angles, metes, and bounds, if this Land is included in it. The United States of America is immediately open to negotiation with Denmark and/or any of these Countries that have put so much at risk, despite all that we have done for them, including maximum protection, over so many decades. Thank you for your attention to this matter!

DONALD J. TRUMP
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Thanks for the elaboration — Wayfarer

You're welcome.

You acknowledge the importance of factors such as upbringing and culture, which I agree are of fundamental importance. — Wayfarer

The brain develops not just by genetic factors, but neuroplasticity may change circuits throughout a lifetime. We never loose the capacity to learn!

But that is a far cry from acknowleding that evolutionary biology provides the 'building blocks of morality'. — Wayfarer

The biological explanation goes to the source. What is the ultimate source of our expressions of morality? It must be things that our brain does - its function. And that function depends on structure, and brain structure is a result of our evolution.

And I question whether the biological theory of evolution really does account for those capacities. It is a theory about the origin and evolution of species, and of the traits of species, seen through the perspective of adaptive fitness. — Wayfarer

If brain capacities are not the result of our evolution, what is your alternative explanation?

How do you separate a species from their structure and function?

I'm sceptical about the way that evolution is invoked as a kind of catch-all theory of eveything about human nature. — Wayfarer

Catch-all? No, I already mentioned neuroplasticity. Brains - and minds - may change. Humans have the wonderful capacities of interpretation, discernment and decision-making. Introducing new knowledge and perspectives broadens the mind, and makes the decision-making more informed.

But then, the historical circumstances of its discovery were such that it came to fill the cultural vacuum, left by the abandonment of the religious traditions. — Wayfarer

So your concern is not that the science may be "right" but that it displaces religion?

But the theory was never intended as the basis for ethics (or epistemology for that matter.) — Wayfarer

No, the theory of evolution, which works by natural selection, does what scientific theories do - they provide explanations based on the best available evidence.

It is not an ethical statement to say that these brain regions are involved in empathetic responses -

Empathy involves a network of brain regions, primarily centered in the anterior insula (AI) for shared feelings, the anterior cingulate cortex (ACC) for emotional regulation, and the prefrontal cortex (PFC) for perspective-taking, alongside areas like the somatosensory cortex, amygdala, and temporoparietal junction (TPJ), working together to process both emotional sharing (affective empathy) and understanding others' mental states (cognitive empathy).

Okay, so we got empathy. Now what are we going to do with it? It is up to us.

You quoted me -

Pure science does not enter the realm of ethics. That is not part of its mandate.
— Questioner — Wayfarer

But neglected to include my very next sentence, which is relevant to your question -

But scientific knowledge may be applied to philosophy.

- your question, which is -

So how can it be, then, that

all morality comes from our evolution.
— Questioner — Wayfarer

I'm not quite sure how your question arises - you seem to conflating scientific enquiry with what it is investigating, I don't see the contradiction, but anyway -

yes, I could have been more precise here and said our "capacity for morality" - the capacities for love, hate, empathy, a sense of fairness, a sense of right and wrong - and the cognition to make decisions - are the drivers of morality - and these capacities evolved through brain evolution

If you had read my other posts, you may have found your answer. I also posted -

Empathy, fear, and hate are biologically imprinted. How they manifest in behavior depends on how they are stimulated...

Then, of course, environmental factors work on its development. Probably the most important is that the physical needs of the child are met, and they learn empathy and love through modeling. This strengthens the empathy circuits in our minds...

How that biological basis is manifested in behavior rests partly on external factors, resulting in diversity and variation within our species, in questions of religion, politics, philosophy, and ethics

all morality comes from our evolution
— Questioner

which passes for popular wisdom in today's culture. — Wayfarer

that the building blocks of morality come from our evolution is valid scientific knowledge, not pop culture

Clearest? How can a "great number" all have the clearest vision? Won't some have clearer vision than others? — Ecurb

Lol, I'm not sure if you are playing with me.

Yep. Some definitely have clearer vision than others.

Education is a big factor. So is the propensity to "question everything." Also, propaganda works best on those who feel "left behind" - as we see currently in the USA. Those with grievance. They are looking for the scapegoat on whom they can blame their problems, and their narrow worldview makes them susceptible to a "strongman" who inflames their hatred of the supposed scapegoat. The situation in the States really brought home to me how powerful an all-consuming hate can be.

In that respect, they resemble the rest of us. — Ecurb

No, that's not me, nor a great number of other critical-thinkers

Those who ARE influenced by "propaganda" probably don't call it propaganda. — Ecurb

Yeah, those in a cult don't have the clearest vision.

My friend who is transitioning, discovered after weeding through all the poor language, crappy phrases, and ideologies that at the end of the day, this was sexual for him. You see, he's a bit past the general dating age, has no plans for kids, has never had luck with women, and part of the reason is because he can't involve himself sexually without imaging himself as a woman. — Philosophim

Your friend is transitioning to female, and you still refer to her as, "he"

Tells me all I need to know about your level of understanding.

But "love your neighbor as yourself" is "propaganda" just as much as "kill the witch" is. — Ecurb

God, no. An appeal to the best in us is not equivalent to the worst in us.

You seem to be claiming that empathy and sympathy are biological; negative morals are "manipulated". Huh? Why the one and not the other? — Ecurb

You don't believe in the power of propaganda?

Explaining the Holocaust as the result of one deviant individual is unpersuasive. Hitler was elected, and he didn't personally kill any Jews. Hundreds of thousands of Germans did.

More important, that's beside the point. I was simply using the Holocaust as an example of humans lacking empathy. There are hundreds of other examples: Witch killings, Inquisitions, slavery, communist executions and gulags, etc. etc. etc. All suggest a lack of "biological" empathy. — Ecurb

I think you missed my point that groups of people can be manipulated

He's my favorite "beat" poet. . — Ecurb

I once tried to read Kerouac's "On the Road" but didn't finish it.

I like the last line in this poem : — Ecurb

A poet I am acquainted with said a poem should always end with "a turn" and I guess this line does that - with some striking imagery

I very much hope that we don’t revert to the idea of survival of the fittest in planning our politics and our values and our way of life. I have often said that I am a passionate Darwinian when it comes to explaining why we exist. It’s undoubtedly the reason why we’re here and why all living things are here. But to live our lives in a Darwinian way, to make a society a Darwinian society, that would be a very unpleasant sort of society in which to live. It would be a sort of Thatcherite society and we want to – I mean, in a way, I feel that one of the reasons for learning about Darwinian evolution is as an object lesson in how not to set up our values and social lives. — Richard Dawkins, in response to a question about whether survival of the fittest might serve as a basis for values

Yes, a good argument for having our political leaders get a philosophy education!

I have no beef with entomology or evolution, but I refuse to admit that they teach me much about ethics. Consider the fact that human action ranges to the extremes. People can perform extraordinary acts of altruism, including kindness toward other species — Anything but Human

Yes, mostly I agree with this quote (I meant to copy the entire quote, but for some reason it did not copy), except for one thing - he seems to be dissing science for not doing what it was never meant to do. Pure science does not enter the realm of ethics. That is not part of its mandate.

But scientific knowledge may be applied to philosophy.

The idea that formed the basis of our discussion, that empathy came first and then religion, doesn’t really hold up as a critique or as an accurate depiction of what many Christians actually believe. — Tom Storm

i did not feel like I was critiquing, just pointing out that substantiated knowledge points to a biological basis for behavior. What Christians believe does not change that fact.

But the problem is that it often rests on assumptions (like scientism) that don’t align with the other person’s worldview. — Tom Storm

I understand the term "scientism" to be a pejorative applied to people who believe science to be the only source of "truth." Is the assumption to which you refer?

I do understand the limits of science, but the process of science investigates this material world, and as we are part of that material world, scientific research has contributed a body of knowledge about our structure and function - about ourselves. I accept that body of knowledge as valid.

How that biological basis is manifested in behavior rests partly on external factors, resulting in diversity and variation within our species, in questions of religion, politics, philosophy, and ethics

Yes, different worldviews exist.

its repetition is inevitable. — Jamal

the older I get, the more I realize that events down throughout history are constantly cycling, and we are in a precarious part of the cycle right now

Hawk Roosting by Ted Hughes — Jamal

Birds have provided so much inspiration to poets!

You have reminded me of a book published in 1877 - Birds and Poets

Read online at the Gutenberg link - https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5177/5177-h/5177-h.htm

Author John Burroughs begins with these lines -

It might almost be said that the birds are all birds of the poets and of no one else, because it is only the poetical temperament that fully responds to them. So true is this, that all the great ornithologists—original namers and biographers of the birds—have been poets in deed if not in word. Audubon is a notable case in point, who, if he had not the tongue or the pen of the poet, certainly had the eye and ear and heart—"the fluid and attaching character"—and the singleness of purpose, the enthusiasm, the unworldliness, the love, that characterize the true and divine race of bards.

Here's one for a philosophy forum.

Crime Club
by Weldon Kees — Ecurb

Yes, that poem seems full of sub-text. I quite liked the story-telling aspect of it, and looked up the poet. Seems Kees "went missing" 1955 - never to be seen again. That fact makes you want to go back and re-read the poem and look for clues. Thanks for sharing it.

Some moral codes suggest empathy for the oppressed; others suggest gassing the Jews. Are both the result of human biological evolution? — Ecurb

I'm glad you raised this point. Yes, they are - acted upon by environmental factors.

Empathy, fear, and hate are biologically imprinted. How they manifest in behavior depends on how they are stimulated.

I'd first like to note that empathy is the default position. We are born with the capacity for empathy. Research has demonstrated that even in babies less than one year old empathy is evident.

https://www.developmentalscience.com/blog/2012/12/02/is-empathy-learned-or-are-we-born-with-it

Here's a video of a 14-month-old comforting his crying mom - look at his face -

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Dar4dP6isGc

Then, of course, environmental factors work on its development. Probably the most important is that the physical needs of the child are met, and they learn empathy and love through modeling. This strengthens the empathy circuits in our minds.

Now - as to the "gassing of the Jews" during WW2 - that is a big question - At the pinnacle of this movement was one man - Hitler - who was a deviant from the norm -

Harvard psychologist Dr. Henry A. Murray prepared this analysis of Hitler for the Office of Strategic Services during the war -

Murray pegged Hitler’s personality as “counteractive narcissism,” a type that is stimulated by real or imagined insult or injury. According to Murray, the characteristics of this personality type include holding grudges, low tolerance for criticism, excessive demands for attention, inability to express gratitude, a tendency to belittle, bully, and blame others, desire for revenge, persistence in the face of defeat, extreme self-will, self-trust, inability to take a joke, and compulsive criminality. Murray concluded that Hitler had these characteristics (and others) to an extreme degree and lacked the offsetting qualities that round out a balanced personality.

Hitler's rise to absolute power depended on manipulating others - his inner circle probably had their own self-serving ambitions, too. What happened in Germany can be described as the cult of the leader.

Massive manipulative propaganda campaigns heightened hate and fear of "the other" - and the ever-present fear of reprisal from the Nazis - had most Germans at least passively accepting the persecution of the Jewish people, and not rally to their cause.

Of course, not all fell prey to hate and fear. It has been estimated that during the course of World War II 800,000 Germans were arrested by the Gestapo for resistance activities. It has also been estimated that between 15,000 and 77,000 of the Germans were executed by the Nazis.

And in the relative safety of the post-war era, in polls conducted by the US military government between 1945 and 1949, 77% of respondents stated that "The actions against the Jews were in no way justified," though this was after the war and many claimed ignorance of the extent of the genocide.

So, they knew what had happened was wrong.

The marriage will cement economic and social relationships between the clans. Such relationships are clearly "cultural" (other societies may not have clans at all, or may organize them differently). So this form of the one, universal human moral rule seems cultural, not biological. — Ecurb

This seems a matter of the cultural trumping the biological.

You've reminded me of something I read - "the sweaty t-shirt experiment" - which demonstrated that scent plays a role in mate selection, and females sniffing the T-shirts recently worn by males favored the scent of those whose immune response genes were different from their own - thus ensuring greater genetic variation in the offspring, which is cited as an evolutionary benefit.

https://www.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/tdc02.sci.life.evo.sweatytshirts/sweaty-t-shirts-and-human-mate-choice/

there is a significant percentage who hold cartoon views of religion and their arguments often fail to understand the positions theists may hold. — Tom Storm

Understood.

The criticism you provided was a standard atheist talking point. — Tom Storm

I'm sorry, what criticism was that?

The point is all morality comes from the same transcendent source. — Tom Storm

The point is that all morality comes from our evolution.

for many Christians it is a straightforward claim about how humans came to be and about the nature of human beings. — Tom Storm

Grounded in an ignorance of evolutionary biology.

because goodness is understood as grounded in God’s very nature rather than being arbitrary or external to God. I don’t find this argument fully convincing, but I respect it. — Tom Storm

Why do we need to respect points of view that are, imo, wrong?

The bottom line is that atheistic arguments that try to defeat theism by pointing out that non-theists have morality, or that there was morality before Moses’ clay tablets, often miss the mark. But you may think differently. — Tom Storm

I'm not trying to defeat theism. I'd hazard a guess that atheists aren't either. They are just saying, it doesn't work for them, as they try to understand in rational terms who and what we are.

A further note -

The Bible has been used to justify a lot of immorality - from the Doctrine of Discovery to the justification of slavery to the subjugation of women (Eve was the sinner) to the persecution of Jewish people, and so on....

The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner — RogueAI

It's short, but it hits hard. I immediately thought of a soldier at war.

Sometimes I feel like the lessons of WW2 have been forgotten.

It's useful for atheists to understand the range of religious beliefs properly and not go after cartoon theism, which is the kind of problem we face when people like Dawkins seem to think that fundamentalism is all there is. — Tom Storm

Yes, there are some good lessons from theistic texts. I think also that you underestimate atheists when you posit that they all blindly follow Dawkins. If anything, atheists are independent thinkers.

I am saying that atheist criticisms such as the ones you provided — Tom Storm

Where did I say I was an atheist?

You can't say "no" the best you can do is say, perhaps it's this... and then provide evidence. — Tom Storm

I can say no. I am sure of it. The evidence provided is the book I linked.

How arrogant to think that only Christians could come up with the idea of values being imprinted upon the heart!

The fact that religions seem to contain similar ideas leads perennialists to conclude that spiritual truth is the same across all traditions. Many academic Christians study other religions and regard them as also containing truth about the transcendent. — Tom Storm

Which supports the idea that morality is biologically based.

Devastating. — AmadeusD

Thanks for sharing. yes, devastating. Nothing more devastating than the death of a child.

There's a real sense of not being able to make any sense of what he was experiencing.

I had to look it up. Heaney wrote this poem about the death of his four-year-old brother, who had been hit by a car.

Maybe. Maybe not. "Thou shalt not steal", for example, depends on a theory of property rights that did not exist in many simple societies. So the moral code and the notion of "property" developed together. — Ecurb

Even chimpanzees know what belongs to them, so the idea of ownership goes back millions of years.

As does the concept of punitive behavior. The idea of justice is not solely a human trait.

Here' some interesting reading about research involving chimps -

Chimps don't just get mad, they get even

When Eve ate the forbidden fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, this may represent the transition from simple, hunting and gathering societies (like Eden) to more complicated civilizations in which morality must be codified (because it is less "natural"). — Ecurb

I do not believe in Adam and Eve as historical figures.

All human behavior is "natural"

Membership is more important than eating cows, pigs, or fish on Friday. — Ecurb

Now you're thinking like a biologist

If that's true, why do we need moral rules? — Ecurb

I'm not sure why a biological basis for behavior would preclude the need for moral rules.

Of course all female mammals are altruistic toward their children. If they weren't, the children wouldn't survive (until human practices like adoption and orphanages). — Ecurb

I remember reading once that a mother's love is the evolutionary origin of all other forms of love.

But moral codes wouldn't be necessary if people didn't desire to break them. — Ecurb

Yes, a human brain is a very complicated thing and variation exists. And evolution is an ongoing process. I remember reading something about how not all of us are at the same stage of brain evolution, that some possess a more ancient form of connections between the amygdala and cognition.

Many of us might want to steal, covet, commit adultery, or forget to keep the Sabbath holy (especially this last). We are enjoined from doing so by the Ten Commandments, not by "biological altruism". — Ecurb

The evolution of moral codes developed from concepts of morality, not the other way around.

By the way, Questioner, if you're interested in Indigenous American philosophy, I recommend The Dawn of Everything by Graeber (a cultural anthropologist) and Wengrow (an archaeologist). The authors argue that the traditional liberal European philosophers (Locke, Mill, Rousseau, et. al.) were influenced by Native American philosophy. Some American philosophers came to Europe, and books about their philosophy were popular, promoting individual freedom, rights, and equality. — Ecurb

Thank you very much for the recommendations!