Comments

  • Commonsense versus physics
    Common sense, if it means non-mathematical wisdom, is at best confined to Earth and at worst to a community - patterns that are local — TheMadFool


    No. Common sense is the life-blood of physics, without which no physics would be possible.
  • Vegan Ethics
    Because I have, for hogs, and I can tell you that no, not at all, the beasts do not die well or cleanly. — Akanthinos

    Maybe you were not doing your job properly?
    Maybe the country you live in has poor standards?
    Maybe the boss you worked for did not comply with the standards that were his legal responsibilities?
    I've seen animals die of natural causes. I know which I would prefer.
  • Vegan Ethics
    give us the right to do bad things to other sentient beings. — petrichor

    Define sentient!
  • Vegan Ethics
    Have you worked on a kill floor before? — Akanthinos

    I've killed several animals that I have reared personally; chickens. geese, ducks, rabbits. I also killed a monsterous goat, as it was born in pain.

    Where the law prevented me doing the job myself I took the animals to be killed and observed the process, personally.

    Some killing floors are poorly regulated, but best practice in the UK reduces suffering to a minimum.
    But even with poor practice the death of an animals in such circumstances would be preferable to ANY natural death.
  • Vegan Ethics
    Cows produce lots of greenhouse gases and contribute in a big way to global warming.
    — petrichor

    Cows are carbon neutral. This is a false argument and quite a desperate ploy to traduce herbivores in general. The planet is capable of making x amount of biomass. All plant matter eventually rots or passed through an animal, cows, monkeys, or widebeasts; human too, makes no difference. If a cow had not eaten the food the greenhouse gasses would have been farted out by a vegetarian, or eventually rotted away expressing the gas then. A cow is just a part of the carbon cycle.     — charleton
  • Vegan Ethics
    Humans are animals. — petrichor

    DUH.
    Animals are not humans. Think that through a minute!
    If my enslavement and eating of a group of humans — petrichor

    Animals are not human.
    other beings simply do not belong to us to do with as we please. — petrichor

    Yes they do!!
    Cows produce lots of greenhouse gases and contribute in a big way to global warming. — petrichor

    Cows are carbon neutral. This is a false argument and quite a desperate ploy to traduce herbivores in general. The planet is capable of making x amount of biomass. All plant matter eventually rots or passed through an animal, cows, monkeys, or widebeasts; human too, makes no difference. If a cow had not eaten the food the greenhouse gasses would have been farted out by a vegetarian, or eventually rotted away expressing the gas then. A cow is just a part of the carbon cycle.

    The only exception to this of any consequence on land is trees. I'm an advocate of growing more tress and humans producing fewer vegetarian babies.

    I note you like to look at pictures of animals suffering. I'm not an advocate of battery farming or any kind of intensive farming, certainly not the sort of farming that modern vegetarianism needs in the northern hemisphere, which is destructive of the environment.

    I do not advocate these buildings in our countryside.
    greenhouse-large.jpg

    I prefer to see this.
    4-AAAA-E637BG-9HA692-PHGGPR-7P2A83-KC9PHE-GGR3JR.jpg
  • Vegan Ethics
    Surely, you mean that these domesticated animals wouldn't be on the land — petrichor

    I consider domesticants animals too. Your problem seems to be that you confuse them with humans.

    I read the rest of your tiatribe and you failed to even begin to address a world without meat animals and what would happen putting more land under the plough, and destroy the environment with more domesticated vegetables production. More factories making tasteless tomatoes. and endives.
    I'm prefer to eat something with a bit of blood.
  • Vegan Ethics
    I forgot to address this. Even if all that were true, it wouldn't make it okay. It would be wrong even if we fed them a constant supply of pleasure drugs. — petrichor

    Why?

    Put humans in their place and see if you think it would be okay. Round up all the homeless struggling for survival and do to them what we do to food animals. Would this be right? — petrichor
    False analogy.
    You are confusing humans with animals.
    Please see "anthropomorphisation"
    Have you looked into what conditions are like in factory — petrichor

    I'm not making an argument for factory farms. I'm supporting the natural right of a human to eat meat.
    If all the cattle were free-range cattle, it wouldn't be quite so bad, but it would still be wrong. — petrichor

    making your point about factory farms completely irrelevant.
    And do they die without pain? Some methods are fairly quick, but there is a lot of fear and often struggle involved. — petrichor

    You are ignorant here.
    Please compare with natural death by predator or disease.
  • Israel and Palestine
    I didn't want to get involved in this discussion. But this is irrelevant. Play the ball not the man (even if your opponent won't). — Baden

    THis question is TOTALLY relevant. Since when did asking a person if they were Jewish become an insult?
    It's more about Zionism as opposed to Judaism. — René Descartes

    I'm not interested in his religion, but his "culture:. Being brought up a Jew might account for his bias.
  • Vegan Ethics
    I assure you that no Disneyesque image of a talking, dancing animal ever came into my mind in the examination that I went throught that led me to stop eating meat. — petrichor

    You've grown up with these ideas since childhood and have an unnatural view of animals. It's an indelible part of culture.
  • Vegan Ethics
    Humans are more valuable for sure, in my way of looking at all this — petrichor

    Cockeyed.
    Domesticated animals exist because of humans. Without meat eaters there would be no animals on the land at all.
    Far from living at their expense; we guarantee their survival and they live in far better comfort and security than their natural cousins; they die cleanly, with no pain. And provide good shit for the soil.
  • Vegan Ethics
    Sure, our position may not be as well justified as the pythagorean theorem, — petrichor

    Pythagoras avoided beans, and his followers were instructed to do likewise. He believed that loss of WIND through farting, was injurious to the fabric of the humours and very dangerous to health.
    You are correct that your justification is not as good as his.
  • Vegan Ethics
    You might be surprised if you cared to talk to one. — petrichor

    I've lived with them, fucked them, and dined with them. They do not hold up to scrutiny. Don;t be so patronising. I'm way ahead of you.
  • Israel and Palestine
    By the way, most Zionists in Israel have wanted nothing from the USA, PROVIDED the USA stops financing Israel's enemies. That has never happened. The USA actually gives far more to Israel's enemies than it does to Israel. — LD Saunders

    That is a complete travesty of the facts.
    1) The USA funded Israel from the start, dumping thousands of Persing tanks that the WW2 factories pumped out of the US.
    Israel currently receives about $3 billion annually, and it's neighbours continues to receive large amounts on the CONDITION that they keep the peace with Isreal. In particular Egypt signed agreements (quoted above) to suspend all hostilities and was paid to do so.
    You seem top want to believe what you chose to believe.
    Are you Jewish by any chance?
    It is usually polite to declare an interest during discussions.
  • Israel and Palestine
    I never said any of that. I was quoting someone else and you are saying that I said it. I agree with you. — René Descartes

    Okay. NP
  • Vegan Ethics
    It seems problematic to me that vegan (and possibly vegetarian ethics) hinges on the claim that we don't need to eat meat. — Andrew4Handel

    I think your mistake might be the assumption that vegans and vegetarians have some sort of coherent moral standpoint. This is not the case.
    A couple of things to consider.

    First is that there is many local ecosystems that cannot reasonably offer humans survival without the use of meat and other animal products. And that to impose veganism or vegetarianism in such places would be seriously injurious in terms of pollution from the energy to bring food to those places.

    Secondly, is the real reasons that people take on these unnatural practices. These fall into two categories, both emotional and not logical or moral, being basic squeamishness about blood and death, and the other being the anthropomorphisation of animals, particularly that concurrent with the rise of vegetarianism in the 20thC which I have called the Disney Effect.

    Moral justifications follow these emotional responses they do not preceded them.
  • Is there a way to disprove mind-brain supervenience?
    (1) Reductionism and (2) determinism. — Kitty

    Neither of these are assumptions, but facts of existence upon which all is predicated.
  • How can the universe exist without us?
    there couldn't even be a universe in the first place because the concept of a universe is a human invention. — Purple Pond

    You are placing the 'concept' before the fact, yet it is perfectly obvious that the fact, in this case has to precede the concept.
    Thus, you have your headline question completely backwards. "How can we exist without the universe'.
    We are of little or no significance in the universe we understand to exist.
  • Israel and Palestine
    The USA actually gives far more to Israel's enemies than it does to Israel. — René Descartes

    Beat this!
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/total-u-s-foreign-aid-to-israel-1949-present

    What you laughingly call Israel's "enemies" get aid on the CONDITION that they are not Israel's enemies. `This aid to other countries constitutes aiding Israel!
  • Israel and Palestine
    The USA actually gives far more to Israel's enemies than it does to Israel.
    — LD Saunders     — René Descartes

    Care to offer some evidence???
  • Is it true that the moon does not exist if nobody is looking at it?
    that's not much of an argument — jkg20

    An empty claim requires no argument.
  • Why do you believe morality is subjective?
    I would still like your opinion on the matter. Do you not seek justice and avoid injustice, at least to yourself, if not to others too? — Samuel Lacrampe

    Obviously. But that is question begging. What is just?
  • Israel and Palestine
    No, it is the argument made by anyone who knows anything about farming. Land, particularly semi-desert is not valuable, at best in can be used for seasonal grazing. You have to invest in it before it becomes productive. — Londoner

    In other words kick off the dirty Arabs and their goats, and build a weapon's factory.
  • Israel and Palestine
    Charleton: No, it's not true, — LD Saunders

    I'm not the only one that cited evidence. If you do not want to read it then that's your problem.
  • Israel and Palestine
    The region was governed by the Egyptians and Hittites before there was any such thing as a Hebrew. Per Netanyahu's own expressed logic, the area should be split between Egypt and Turkey and the Jews should evacuate entirely. — frank

    Indeed, and the Australians should give Australia back the the indigenous peoples; the nations of the Americas should return the lands to the "Indians", but more in a timeline - since there has not been a Jewish state before 1948 since the time of Hadrian, the English should give back Britain to the Welsh and Cornish folk and return to Germany and Scandinavia.
  • Israel and Palestine
    There was something of that notion in early Jewish settlements in Palestine, They were taking on unproductive land, so bringing it into production would benefit everyone. — Londoner

    This is laughable.
    It's the same false argument used by white genocidal maniacs all over the world from South Africa to all the Americas.
  • Word game
    I am_________of your___________ — Janus

    I am the father's brother of your mother's father's son. Who am I?

    If you are _______, right now, think of how ______ I am!
  • What is the solution to our present work situation?
    We need goods and services. This causes people to focus on things which produce necessary goods and services. This causes a loss of individual freedom to think about other things. Post hoc justifications are then put in place from social promptings- "work hard, play hard", the novelty of a "new" career move, a slight "raise", "group think", "team meetings", etc. This is the best we can do? — schopenhauer1

    The technological revolution we have all witnessed over the last 60 years ought to have freed us all to have more leisure. Sadly the good old Protestant work ethnic has meant the contrary, has happened.

    Inequality is up; we are more dependant on work, yet we have less work security; we have more labour saving devices, yet we we seem to work more, longer hours with fewer rights and lower guarantees.

    This travesty of the possible has been brought to you by Neoliberal Ideology which has made the rich richer, the poor poorer, and continues to restrict democratic rights and freedoms.

    This is not the world predicted in the 1970s.
  • Why is it that we often think about the past?
    It sounds like my argument, to be totally frank. I'm guessing you agree with it — Abdul

    I was talking about history.
  • Word game
    Elephants will learn to jump rope before ________. — Purple Pond

    Elephants will learn to jump rope before Augustino responds to a challenging question about Theodicy.

    Never give a ________, a(n) ______ crack of the _____
  • Why is it that we often think about the past?
    What is it about the past that fascinates us? Why is it so hard to just “leave it all behind?” — Abdul

    Know the past and own the future.
    Finding out the mistakes of our forebears justifies our repeating those mistakes for our own benefit.
  • Word game
    Your____ gives me the _____. — CuddlyHedgehog

    Your opinion gives me the jip.

    More clearly express your _____, and you shall then ______
  • Is it true that the moon does not exist if nobody is looking at it?
    Is it true that the moon does not exist if nobody is looking at it?
    No.
    Next!
  • The Charade
    Is everything really a matter of personal opinion? — Sapientia

    When you ask, really ask, about a thing you "know" it gives you the chance to understand why, and how you have come to know it, and opening up the debate to others has the possibility to unpack that knowledge, to revise it, build upon it or even dismiss it utterly.
  • Israel and Palestine
    But by contrast, this guy is not going to get kicked out of the conservative party anytime soon. — unenlightened

    There is so much more antisemitism and casual racism in the Tory party but for some reason the media seldom seem to feature it in their articles.
    By contrast the media seem very keen in denigrate FB pages that support Jeremy Corbyn. In Labour there is really no one in any position of power that would ever get away with expressing antisemitic views and party rules make the mere mention of Zionism, or apartheid next to impossible.
    The new rules have been termed thought crime;"
    “No member of the party shall engage in conduct which in the opinion of the NEC is prejudicial, or in any act which in the opinion of the NEC is grossly detrimental to the party. The NEC shall take account of any codes of conduct currently in force and shall regard any incident which in their view might reasonably be seen to demonstrate hostility or prejudice based on age; disability; gender reassignment or identity; marriage and civil partnership; pregnancy and maternity; race; religion or belief; sex; or sexual orientation as prejudicial to the party; these shall include but not be limited to incidents involving racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia or otherwise racist language, sentiments, stereotypes or actions, sexual harassment, bullying or any form of intimidation towards another person on the basis of a protected characteristic as determined by the NEC, wherever it occurs, as conduct prejudicial to the party.”

    Jews are not an economically disadvantaged groups, and I feel are moving towards a privileged status where any criticism of any Jew for any reason tend to attract accusations of antisemitism.

    I cannot see what it is that being a Jew makes it okay to have established sub-groups inside the Labour party.
    What would the reaction be if there was a group called Whites Labour Movement, or White Voice for Labour?
  • Israel and Palestine
    It's amazing how many crazy Jew-hating comments are on here. Hitler supported Israel? — LD Saunders
    No it's TRUE.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement
    That's absolutely false. Israel is a racist state? False.
    Immigration policy to so-called "Israel" has denied non-Jews. That is racism.
    Non Jews, especially Arabs are denied basic rights of land ownership, and their lands have ben systematically stolen. That is racism.
    Israel is an apartheid state, expansionist and founded by terrorism.
    Whilst the British government were brokering a deal for the foundation of the state, Jews bombed British soldiers stationed in Palestine.
  • Israel and Palestine
    an ancient people from the verge of extinction? — Hanover

    The provenance of the modern Jew is debatable.
    Extinction? There are as many Jews in the USA as in Israel.
    Self identify yourself as Jews, white, black reifies racism.
  • Israel and Palestine
    The establishment of Israel was an act of utter imperialist arrogance which has dropped the world into a pit of violence that will last a thousand years.
    Despite no final agreement by the League of Nations of the UN with the neighbouring polities Jewish terrorists seized control of Palestine and there has been bloodshed ever since.
    Israel was conceived during a time when eugenics was respectable and at a time when race was thought to be a viable proposition. Hitler accepted the position of the Zionists as it was his view that founding a state on racist lines was a good idea.

    And with that he left the stage.
  • David Hume's Argument Against The Goodness Of The Whole
    LOL - do you even read what I write?! I said the POSSIBILITY of gout is necessitated by our biological structure. Not the actuality of it. So I don't have it right now, but it's always possible that I will get it. — Agustino

    yes and no. First the 'no"

    No, the pain of gout is the result of the necessity of cause and effect of a cold and indifferent universe with no purpose.
    Nothing to do with possibilities, but necessities.
    You are either going to get it or not. If you have the genetic propensity then your future is one in which you take 500mg of Allupurinol each day, or have a massively restricted diet.

    Hume's point was that were you to believe in God you would have to accept that He ought to be smart enough to figure out a world in which there was no gout at all. Some get it some do not. Theodicy is silly.
    Gout otherwise serves no purpose and makes no sense in a intelligently created world, and neither did the earthquake of 1755.

    Yes, I do read what you write, and I also notice the posts you refuse to answer or acknowlege.
  • The purpose of education?
    It is fucking dire because its message is so infantile and easy to understand that it is immensely more attractive than reality. — jastopher

    But as a teacher it ought to be your duty to nod sagely and ignore those bastards that are clueless and get on with your job for the sake of the next generation.
    Box tickers make bad teachers.
    Those who can, teach. Those that cannot, lead.
Home » charleton