No, this isn't a great understanding, clever, or interesting. It's a reductio ad absurdum. The absurd argument presented is that true persuasion is the inability to persuade at all because those masters of persuasion realize all persuasion amounts to nothing more than submitting disingenuous arguments back and forth trying to trick the other into giving them what they want.

No, it isn't. There's a whole art to persuasive rhetoric. You're going to tailor it to the person you're trying to persuade, a la the traditional sense of ad hominem. And yeah, it's "disingenuous" on your view, but that hardly matters. The goal is to persuade others. — Terrapin Station

Yet you can't persuade anyone who has even an elementary understanding of your position, which is that you'll say whatever it is you need to to obtain a result, including offering entirely fraudulent reasons for your position as long as you think it might pacify them. You can't admit to disingenuousness without consequence.

"Moral debate" is purely a practical matter of trying to persuade people to not treat others (and create laws for others) in a way that you do not prefer, in a way that you disapprove of. It's akin to, say, being in a band and trying to persuade your bandmates to write or play a particular section of a song you're working on a particular way. — Terrapin Station

Then the entirety of your argument would be "don't murder because I prefer people not murder." That doesn't seem at all persuasive. If you interject other reasons, like "don't murder because human life has intrinsic value" that might be more persuasive, but it'd be disingenuous because the basis you provided had nothing at all to do with the reason why you believed murder was wrong. The reason you feel murder is wrong is because you don't prefer it. And, of course, should you prefer it, it would be right,

If though you have an underlying principle that justifies your preferences, then you need to state that principle because that principle is the primary cause of your moral judgments, not your unwashed preference.

What medical application does snorting cocaine or doing meth have? None. So, let it be prohibited is what I think is the best option. — Wallows

The problem is that you don't articulate a specific principle here that determines morality from immorality. If you are deriving a moral principal and declaring that purposeless behavior is immoral per se, then that will have to be applied to other instances other than drugs, meaning we might end up declaring things like skiing and dancing immoral.

I'm not really sure why we're reinventing the wheel here though and trying to form moral theories from scratch. Maybe we can start with some time honored solutions like Utilitarianism or Kantianism. Otherwise we're just going to hack away at our own half-baked theories and slowly watch them collapse through this Socratic dialogue.

Moral stances are personal dispositions/"feelings" about the acceptability of interpersonal behavior that one considers more significant than etiquette. — Terrapin Station

If you really adhere to Emotivism, you'll have to explain how it is at all rational to engage in ethical debate, considering you're admitting that your arguments are only valid to you. If when you say murder is "bad," you mean it's bad to you, but maybe not to me, just like I might think chocolate ice cream tastes good to me but bad to you, then it hardly makes sense for us to debate whether murder (or chocolate ice cream) is actually bad. I'm not engaging in the meta-ethical debate of whether morality is ultimately objective or subjective, but I am saying it makes no sense to present logical bases for a topic you're declaring emotional.

If you're going to say it's immoral to do drugs or immoral to illegalize drugs or assert any position on morality, you have to first assert what criteria you use to determine what is moral and then explain how those criteria are or aren't satisfied.

I would argue that law is dictated by morality, and not the dicator there of. — LuckilyDefinitive

This ignores the accepted distinction between malum prohibitum (wrongs by virtue of statute) and malum in se (wrongs in themselves). The former might be that the tax rate is 28% or the speed limit is 45. The latter would be that murder is illegal. Should a legislature decide the speed limit is to be 46, the law would be just as moral as before. If murder is declared legal, though, the law would be immoral.

No sound sweeter than the blues:

They want money so they can lead better lifestyles. — Wallows

Life is about experiences, and the value of money offers little if all you do is buy objects. Go do things, ideally, but not necessarily, with others who appreciate the journey with you. How can you be sad spelunking, scuba diving, dog sledding, or waking up in a far away land? And it hardly needs to be that unusual. It can be as little as finding an old tent and a sleeping bag and going to the mountains. Go sign up for karate lessons at the county rec office. Buy a bird. Learn to speak French really poorly. Do whatever. Live life and don't be timid.

Your primary experience as far as I can tell is moping. Pick something else to do.

That's actually very inspirational. For real. :up:

I'm lucky in that I was both born into priviledge and lucky enough to feel entitled. I'm also lucky enough not to worry about those who feel guilty for having more.

This doesn't make sense if you really think about it. Why would the EU offer a better deal to non-member States? It's not going to happen barring some full scale disintegration of the EU.Also good luck with finding an alternative market as developed with similar purchasing power and the size of the EU. So they'll have GDP growth at some point again but the GDP reduction for the next 2 to 5 years will be real (and a permanent loss compared to remaining). — Benkei

Not all of Europe is in the EU, like Switzerland, Norway, Iceland (to the extent that is part of Europe), to name a few. Why will Britain's departure spell such disaster if other nations have fared well without the EU association? Is there something distinct about Britain's dependence on the EU that doesn't affect these other nations? Maybe the rebel states could form their own confederacy.

Indeed it has/is, but you commented that we are afeared of independence, when there is no longer independence to be had. Unless you suggest we should emulate N Korea in their isolation? And even they depend (heavily) on China, the only nation that will deal with them. Independence is only attractive in theory, in today's world. — Pattern-chaser

Like I said, it's always been a matter of degree, which doesn't imply you have to accept the degree of autonomy that exists in N. Korea in order to be independent. The UK removing itself from the EU won't make it isolationist. I fully expect trade to continue, just under terms negotiated by Britain. I think there's a definition of "independent" that doesn't include being a hermit.

I just don't understand why these """intellectuals""" don't just stay in their lane. — MindForged

And the same can be said of anyone who has the spotlight on them, which is that they should limit their performance to their expertise and to what the people came to see. "Intellectuals" do it, Hollywood actors do it, rock stars do it, football players do it, and TV commentators do it, to name just a few. It's a thing now where it's considered a heroic act of conscience to stand up and speak your mind on any issue you find important, even where you have no special reason to matter.

So, if someone were to plead with a judge in the court of law that they had no free will, and the crime was due to their upbringing and social factors that ultimately led them to steal money for food, then what then? This wouldn't fly nowadays; but, could if the judge accepted the fact that they had a limited liability in committing the crime due to deterministic factors, what then? — Wallows

In the 1840s, the House of Lords arrived at the McNaughten Rule, which states as follows:

"the jurors ought to be told in all cases that every man is to be presumed to be sane, and to possess a sufficient degree of reason to be responsible for his crimes, until the contrary be proved to their satisfaction; and that to establish a defence on the ground of insanity, it must be clearly proved that, at the time of the committing of the act, the party accused was labouring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing; or, if he did know it, that he did not know he was doing what was wrong." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%27Naghten_rules#Alternative_rules

This rule was adopted in the US for some time, although it has been replaced with the ALI rule in many jurisdictions:

The ALI rule is:

"(1) A person is not responsible for criminal conduct if at the time of such conduct as a result of mental disease of defect he lacks substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law.
"(2) As used in this Article, the terms "mental disease or defect" do not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct [Section 4.01]."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALI_rule

These rules presume free will unless it can be shown that the person in question lacks the ability to understand or appreciate the wrongfulness of their act. So, there is in fact a "lack of free will" defense for adults as it relates to an inability to appreciate right from wrong. This isn't limited to just the insane, but also to children and the mentally handicapped. It is a viable defense. Insanity isn't a particularly good defense in practice because once declared insane, your sentence is likely to be very lengthy because they can't release you from the state mental hospital until you're better, which is likely never.

There are no independent nations these days. We live in a global economy, and all nations are linked by this into mutual dependence. :roll: — Pattern-chaser

It's always been a matter of degree.

Honestly I don't know what to make of the UK government. I'm not sure how it has managed to function this long. — frank

The UK is steeped in tradition. It's not like they radically swing from one direction to the next. They have a monarchy for God sake. And it's not like the US Constitution has been used to maintain tradition and stability in the US. It's actually been used as a force for great change.

As Benkei also alluded to, Britain is a common law country, meaning its courts adhere very closely to precedent. I'd also point out that even in those countries with constitutions, many don't have constitutional courts vested with the power of striking down legislation. The point being, the US's method is just one of many.

The problem for the UK is the loss of direct access to the EU market for goods, services and capital. That will lead to an immediate and permanent reduction in GDP. — Benkei

This makes a number of assumptions: that the UK's free agent status won't allow them to negotiate better deals with other trading partners (like the US, Korea, or wherever), that the free trade within the EU was the most beneficial arrangement for the UK, and that the UK can't negotiate a better arrangement with the EU once they leave.

Britain going at it alone poses all sorts of risks, but if their expertise is superior, then they could be successful here. Judging from the muted enthusiasm over the whole enterprise, I'm beginning to lose confidence in them. Maybe they can hire some Americans to figure it out for them. If nothing else, they'll at least bring some optimism.

Little birdies without any wings shouldn't be pushed off cliffs and everything is not going to be alright. — Baden

First of all, if the birdies have no wings, then they're going to be eaten by those who do. It's just a matter of time. Second, yes, everything is going to be alright, the song says so:

(Germany: 46%) — ssu

This figure has gained some interest as of late, making some question who's really gaining an advantage from the centralized Euro. I realize that the UK isn't one suffering, but the German success is an interesting phenomenon.

I've never seen a nation so in fear of independence. I know the world's a great big scary place little birdie, but take a deep breath, jump off from up high, and flap those little wings. Everything's gonna be alright.

They could hold a second referendum, so why don't they? The democracy is obviously not allowing it. If polling shows my congressman no longer popular, is it an insult to democracy that he continue to serve? Wouldn't the democracy have the power to decide how democratically elected decisions be reconsidered?

Must they hold hourly referenda so that all decisions reflect the pulse of the public in order to meet your definition of democracy? I do believe it's fair to hold the voters to what they voted for, and I don't think any voter had the expectation that his vote was preliminary and that there'd be multiple additional referenda prior to leaving. That is, the vote to leave was really to leave.

You act like fairness and adherence to prior decisions are unrelated, and you put no value on finality, as if indecisiveness is a virtue.

So your argument is that they shouldn't have used a referendum to determine whether to stay or leave. That's critically different than the argument that they should ignore the result of the mechanism they chose to arrive at their decision.

Other than informing me of your hostility, little else is communicated in your post. It's fairly obvious that the purpose of the referendum was to determine whether the UK would stay or leave. To hold the referendum for that express purpose and then to argue that referenda aren't a valid means for the purpose expressed once a result is reached, would result in zero respect for the government, which would be even further eroded if the government assumed your arrogance and references to what science decreed.

This isn't kindergarten where I have to spell everything out for you. — Benkei

If it's not kindergarten, why the temper tantrum?

Your response is nonsense really, with this global attack against the "science" of referenda, arguing they are meaningless exercises. You ignore the fact that they are given meaning by the decree of law, which means they matter even if you think they shouldn't. If we decide to choose our representatives by the roll of the die, then that's how we do it, despite the science that shows dice aren't smart enough to choose our representatives.

So the referendum tells us nothing. It's just all a big waste of time. — Benkei

What the referendum tells us is that a majority of the people voting voted to trigger leaving and all who voted knew that was the consequence of the vote. To the extent the referendum doesn't provide us the basis for those voting, that's the fault/decision of the democratic process that created the referendum. Had the democracy wanted to know why the democracy was voting, or had it wanted the vote to provide other options, it could have asked that of the democracy, and it could have even written in that if the basis of the vote was to end immigration, then they wouldn't leave (if that's how the democracy wanted to do it). All of this is to say that the king can do whatever he wants for whatever reason he wants (within certain discriminatory limits). The king needn't be logical, honest, or virtuous. It's his kingdom and he can run it like an idiot if he wants. In this instance, the king is the people because it's a democracy, and the people can create whatever they want.

Ok, but in terms of the overall question of whether a rerun of the referendum is justified, it doesn't matter where the violation was. They cheated and that undermines the legitimacy of the result. — Baden

Ok, and a rerun undermines the legitimacy of the result as well. The question is what to do about violations. Lock the cheaters up, fine them, throw tomatoes at them, whatever. I'm just saying a re-do isn't the answer. I

I explained several times already they were officially found in violation of campaign rules. — Baden

Sure, but what was written on the bus wasn't one of them. I pointed out the violation of the rules seemed to deal with spending more than the cap permitted based upon what might be a mischaracterization by Leave regarding how money was spent.

Fascinating. — Baden

You're being dismissive of my pointing out that your characterization of German intent was incorrect. You were suggesting that Germany's remaining in the EU was mutually beneficial and for that reason it wouldn't leave. It looks like really it's unilaterally beneficial and others might be benefited from leaving, especially those poorer nations that would benefit from having their old weaker and more easily controlled currencies still in place.

I don't follow your post.

Odd then that the Leave campaign focused so much—in what turned out to be a very effective lie—on the money that was spent on the EU and how that could be saved and given to the health service. — Baden

A lie, assuming it was one, isn't a campaign violation. It's just what happens in political events. If you overturned every election every time a lie were found, we'd never have had a single leader.

But I suspect they won't and that's where the objections to re-running the referendum lie, not in any ethical or democratic basis, but in the hope that the British have been irreversibly duped into a self-destructive decision. — Baden

If the liars won, blame the truth tellers for having not gotten their message out. That's what these contests are. You don't get a do-over because one side lied.

Let us assume that all transexualism is a delusional state, the question would then be whether there is greater harm in allowing these folks to live out their delusions or in forcing them to accept that they are broken. It seems that neither body modifications (from hormones to genital changing) nor mind modifications (therapy and drugs) makes these folks into Ward and June Cleaver. So, what to do? Do we just continuously remind them that they live in a false reality, and that Bob is no more Jane than I am one of the last of the Condors?

I think there is a good argument that sexual modifications in all their varied forms do not make people happier and that it leads to all sorts of other physical problems and emotional problems, both from the effects of the surgery and the hormones and from the ostracism that occurs from the process. If it can be shown that as a medical procedure it creates more harm than good, then I'd be motivated to limit it. Otherwise, I tend to think that people can wear whatever clown suit they want, including the one I wear.

At least you're no longer claiming Germany would benefit from leaving the EU, which is progress I suppose. — Baden

Sure, but it's not as you said, which was that Germany had economically propped up poorer European nations and that created an overall more prosperous Europe. What appears to be happening is that the single currency is allowing Germany to dominate the poorer nations and greatly increase its exports. You were arguing that the EU helped Germany because kumbaya principles were at play. It seems like something more sophisticated and manipulative is at play.

I wonder what makes you think that? I am old enough to remember when DeGaulle blocked the UK application to join the EEC as then was for many years, and having lived in France, I think the sentiment there will be fairly unforgiving, as the UK has not been an enthusiastic supporter of the project, but typically the awkward one, demanding special arrangements and exemptions. If I was the EU, it'd be a cold day in hell before I let the UK back in. — unenlightened

I'd like to think we still have an ideologically principled and spiteful Europe that hands out vindictive punishments that damages its own self interests. It sounds very old school American, and I would gain much respect for France if it told the UK to fuck off for having left the party in the first place and they can't just come back now because they've gotten all lonely. My thinking is that newfangled Europe has lost its fangs, but maybe I'm wrong.

Except it wasn't fair and square. Leave criminally cheated. I think I mentioned that several times. — Baden

There are allegations that Leave broke rules regarding the spending cap, but it's also clear that Remain spent more than Leave and benefited from a government funded leaflet supporting their cause. https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/03/27/did-vote-leave-cheat-to-win-the-brexit-referendum . As I've said, I'm not terribly worried about such violations because at the end of the day the will of the people was presented. Had votes been thrown away or people voted twice, then I'd care. I also have a general problem with funding caps because it violates my First Amendment sensibilities. Democracy, voting, free speech, and free press, in their purest and finest forms, are shouting matches.

At least you're no longer claiming Germany would benefit from leaving the EU, which is progress I suppose. Maybe next try Googling "Ireland" +"History" + "Colonisation" + "For dummies" or some variation thereof. — Baden

My references to Ireland's exit was only to make the point that the value of autonomy goes far beyond economic gain. That is, even if it could be shown unequivocally that the UK will suffer economically from leaving, that's likely not going to matter to the Leave movement because their decision was not driven by economic pragmatics. If the US could form a special economic alliance with Germany, for example, that would most likely lead to greater economic prosperity, but it would also grant greater power to Berlin in deciding American economic policy, there'd be a 0% chance it'd be accepted by America. It feels very much like that is what is going on in the UK right now, and for that reason I think all these economic doom arguments miss the point. Leave isn't basing their decision on the economy alone, which shouldn't be surprising. Most nations are motivated by a sense of kinship, mutual values, history, and all sorts of other things that demand self-governance. I also think that those who wish to stay will portray Leave's desire to protect the special substance that is Britain as being xenophobic and racist, and that will only strengthen Leave's resolve. I know how this ends. Trump gets elected.

What we're arguing over is whether a new referendum would be ethical given the circumstances of the last. (As for the bitching/gym workout/sore loser part, I've had that from Sap already and it still doesn't an argument make — Baden

And I say it's unethical to demand a new vote because you lost pretty much fair and square. Nothing's perfect of course. I'm less troubled by misstatements and misrepresentations during the campaign than I am cheating during the process (like stuffing the ballot box or blocking votes). Voting is a free for all, and everyone has to exercise their due diligence in deciding how to vote. That's what democracy is.

Whether I'm a disgruntled remain voter (which I'm not, I'm not even British) or an objective outside observer or whatever in-between makes no difference here). — Baden

Which brings up the point of why the Irish were allowed to Irisexit from the UK when it's fairly obvious that it cost them economically, yet we all know that economics should always be the primary driver in determining whether a nation seeks sovereignty, right? I think Ireland's doing ok now, but I don't know if anyone is left.

The Euros it pays in to develop and grow these local markets are more than paid back by the increasing purchasing power of the poorer countries it's "carrying". — Baden

This is sort of the karmic theory of economics where when you help out your neighbors, fairness rains from the heavens and everyone does well. What actually is happening is that the Euro is undervalued compared to what a single nation deutschmark would be and that has allowed Germany to increase its exports and profit handsomely . https://economicquestions.org/germany-unfair-trade-advantages/ The argument isn't that Germany has propped up its weaker neighbors and thereby permitted them to become worthy customers now enjoying previously unforeseen wealth, but it is that Germany is unfairly benefiting from a relatively weak Euro and making less competitive nations even less competitive.

That's what I have gleaned from my good 20 minute Google investment into European economic theory at least.

My general response to your hyper-litigious position, which essentially submits any disagreeable voter outcome to a do over if any irregularity can be found, is worse than the problem it seeks to solve. We must assume, absent some extreme case, that each side of the political battle wages its best fight for its position, and if it doesn't, it pays the price with a loss. To do otherwise attacks the heart of democratic decision making.

In other words, the Brexits won. Game over. Stop bitching at the refs to achieve in the courtroom what you couldn't achieve on the playing field. These efforts of yours at fairness are really just efforts to force through a minority position that you think is obviously right despite it being less popular. Go back to the gym, work harder, and get them next time.

If the UK's exit from the EU turns catastrophic, they'll just reenter later. It's not like the EU nations are unforgiving. The real concern is if the UK thrives, how long will Germany hang in there and carry its poorer neighbors? No one here has actually contemplated the possibility that the good citizens of the UK might have made the right call here.

It isn’t about private or public healthcare. It’s about the UK’s supply chain being tied to us being a member of the single market, given that we don’t manufacture all the drugs. It takes significant time to establish new trade agreements and work out the new logistics. — Michael

I expect diligence on the part of your leaders as well as allowances on the part of other European nations in making sure people don't die of curable diseases. I'm not saying Brexit doesn't matter as I'm sure it will have economic consequences, but I truly think that your concerns that there will a real lack of basic goods and services is alarmist.

I'm not trying to persuade them. I'm saying that there is justification for holding a second referendum. — Michael

Like I'm saying though, if the justification of those who wanted to leave is that they simply believe in the concept of home rule and autonomy, then your justification holds no weight for them. People who believe in self-rule are not going to be convinced that there will be major failures when they begin to self rule.

And also that Brexit should just be cancelled without bothering with a second referendum. — Michael

I agree with S on this one. You can't defy the democracy, as if you know better for them. The loss of public support for the legitimacy of the system is a bigger loss than simply pulling the plug on the latest economic idea.

Just want to add that Facebook is not just one website among many, one product offering among many. In some parts Facebook is pretty much synonymous with Internet, which makes it more like a utility, for better or for worse. So what Facebook does (or does not do) is not just a private business decision - it has a global social impact. — SophistiCat

No, it is but one website among many and it is nothing like a utility. If you don't want to communicate via Facebook, then don't. I don't. If I don't like my water, power, sewage, or gas company, it's not like I can shop somewhere else. If I don't like my social media site, I can find another way to communicate.

This isn’t a game. It’s not about winning and losing. There are very real and very serious consequences to leaving that weren’t apparent during the referendum and that certainly couldn’t have been known before the terms of leaving were actually negotiated. — Michael

Sure, and if the choice were made to stay, there'd be people arguing that they didn't realize what staying really meant. That's the thing about decisions. You are stuck with the information you have when you decide.

For some people this really is a life or death issue. There’s talk of staff shortages for the NHS and a negative effect on the medical supply chain, at least in the case of a no deal exit. — Michael

Nobody's going to die. In the US, we don't even have an NHS and everyone, regardless of income, figures out how to get care. You really need to get off the idea that the government is as necessary as it is. That's a very European viewpoint of yours.

My assessment from thousands of miles of way is that the decision to leave was ideological and wasn't based upon a review of the pros and cons of leaving versus staying. It's for that reason that I really don't think any of your data points would be very persuasive to someone in favor of leaving. It's about autonomy, self-governance, self-reliance, and a general view that Brits believe they know what's best for Brits better than anyone else. The opposition will interpret all that as racism and xenophobia I'm sure though.