So I have a heap of rice consisting of 10,000,000 grains. Which grain makes it not a heap?

As far as the abortion debate goes in this analogy, all that is necessary is that we acknowledge that there is some amount that is not a heap (X), some amount that there is a heap ( Y) and some amount where we are uncertain (Z). Abortion would be permissible in X, not in Y, and we can be as cautious or as reckless in Z as our values might might be.

So it's not exactly the case that we ought not kill them because they are a person, but that they are a person and we ought not kill them because they have thoughts and feelings and wants and so on. — Michael

The moral claim is that persons are sacred, endowed with certain rights. The claim would be, to the moral realist, that in this reality, persons have those rights.

There are also people as well. The claim is that within reality, there are people walking around.

Ergo, don't murder the people.

But denying essentialism does not deny that there are people or that every example of a person is ambiguous and might not be a person. Denying essentialism only means there is no one element that every person has, but instead perhaps that there are a number of criteria that if existing within certain combinations will result in a person.

So it's not that entity X with attributes a, d, l, and q ought not be killed. It's that if entity X has the attributes that satisify what a person is then entity X should not be killed.

I do follow what you're saying, and maybe we're not saying anything terribly different, but you seem to be saying that "Person" is shorthand for saying "entity X with attributes a, d, l, and q," so we needn't elevate the term "Person" to mean something more or different. My view though is that entity Y with attributes a, d, l, and c and not q might also be a "Person," so it serves an important function to place entities X and Y into the "Person" catagorization because in our moral universe, People have special rights.

I'll again point out that the interests and preferences of the person carrying are much more apparent than those of the zygot or cyst or foetus. We do not need an agreed definition of personhood in order to understand that while the mother can tell us what she wants, the conceptus' needs are only ever inferred. They are not of equal standing. — Banno

That logic doesn't work because it would support infanticide. The obligations imposed upon parents to support their children are real whether the child is in utero or not and an infant's wants can only be inferred as well.

That is, there is no basis for treating some people as second class citizens if they are indeed people. What is a "person" is a either based upon empirically based observations or it's socially constructed. As has been argued in the transsexual related threads, the argument from the left was pretty solidly that what is a man or woman is a social construct and from there we create laws that protect those socially created classifications.

In truth, I think the left does the same with regard to what a person is, although there seems to be this struggle to try to support it with science. It's not going to be supportable in science though because the essence of personhood is far too nebulous a concept.

That is, let's leave to the right the hard and fast rules: A man is XY and a person is the product of conception. Let's leave to the left the social constructs: A man is a person who so declares himself to be and a person is who society declares them to be. Your basis for not protecting certain fetuses seems wrapped up in protecting certain societal interests consistent with your views on protecting women. That's not a bad thing, but I don't think it needs to be further supported by ad hoc arguments related to science where we try to prove through a microscope that a fetus isn't a person.

Angelic sounds from the heavens.

A good point, but then resemblance is not a sufficient criterion either, since a dead human body still resembles a person pretty exactly but isn't a person. — Echarmion

It depends upon what you mean by "resemblance." At first glance sure, but after a while I start to notice differences between a dead guy and and an alive guy.

But as to a sperm affixed to an egg, that doesn't look like any person I know.

Beyond that we do afford rights to human beings whose ability to behave as a person has been temporarily or permanently damaged to some extent. I think this can be easily accommodated as being out of an abundance of caution, which seems a reasonable strategy to adopt. — Echarmion

The most cautious approach is to afford rights at conception. That would be a really safe approach, but if you think women have rights worth protecting, then the safest approach for them would be to protect the right to abortion up until the moment of birth. Then you have to balance the interests, and once you do that, you're not talking about science, but you're talking about public policy that satisifies the most people.

But the problem is that the ideologues control the debate, not the pragmatists, which is why the respective sides spend the better part of their arguing screaming "misogynist" and "murderer" at each other.

It is unambiguously not a person, not a human being with memories, needs, and preferences. — Banno

But there are organisms, unambiguously people, who lack these attributes as well.

I don't afford embryos the rights of a person because they don't look like people. They look like a dividing cell under a microscope. I could pretend it's more than that, but it's not. An unconscious amnesiac is a person if he resembles those I know to be people.

I don't think it was a violation. P1 says something about 'whatever begins to exist', but a claim that God didn't begin to exist expiicitly exempts itself from P1. — noAxioms

If "whatever" doesn't mean everything, but only something, then the conclusion:

Therefore, the universe has a cause for its beginning — MoK

does not follow.

That is, if you can ad hoc remove those things you don't want to have a beginning, you can remove the universe as well.

You can't say everything has a cause, so therefore the universe must have had an uncaused cause. The statement is self-contradictory.

If God can always have existed without a cause, then so can have the universe.

They claim that God didn't begin to exist but exists. — MoK

They can't claim that because it violates premise #1, which was my point.

Premise #1 is:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause for its beginning — MoK

By all means, may 'merca have a sane ethical and political discussion, without divine intervention. — Banno

American abortion law was fairly progressive prior to Roe's reversal. Anchoring the law in convoluted Constitutional interpretation left it vulnerable. It's now been thrown back to the states and the democratic debate that was stunted for 50 years has been reopened. We're in a time of transition, but i think we'll eventually get it right. Hard decisions are supposed to be messy.

Murder is unlawful killing. It's not murder if abortion is legal. — Banno

If infanticide were legal, it wouldn't be murder. Substitute anything for the word "infanticide" and the logic holds. "Murder" entails illegality.

The pro-life folks are essentialists. That element worth protecting in you or me they believe exists in fertilized eggs. I don't find that position despicable. I just find it unpersuasive. The conceptus and I surely look distinct in all important ways, but I'm not terribly offended by the insistence that we ought not have fuzzy lines distinguishing which humans are afforded protection under the law and which not.

But turning away from essentialism, if we look instead toward general resemblance, we don't get a fully satisfactory answer either. Why would a 5 week fetus be a person and not the 3 week fetus?

And what does women's choice or viability have to do with any of this? I'd have no problem with heroic efforts to save an organism that was unquestionably a person even if it weren't at the moment viable and even if the person carrying it objected. Viability and choice arguments are pragmatic political insertions, but they ignore the question of personhoid.

And the point is that this isn't philosophy when we all are doing is trying to arrive at workable or even compassionate public policy. It's just political debate, and therefore the vitriol.

Let's talk about the law of Hanoveria that says "Thou shalt not break cups." We can then argue whether a hunk of clay on a turning wheel can be destroyed prior to its full formation. That subtracts the vitriol.

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause for its beginning — MoK

This premise is self-contradictory.

If what you mean by "whatever begins to exist" is that there are certain whatevers that "begin" in a creation ex nihilo sort of way, i.e. something from nothing, then you've violated the other condition of this premise, which is that every whatever "has a cause."

That is, you are saying in a single breath that some things just come to be without a cause but all things have a cause.

This contradiction becomes more evident when you seek to locate the elusive first uncaused cause (i.e. God). That is, this argument doesn't lead you to finding God, but it leads you to realizing that even God fails to meet your conditions because God is a whatever that must also have a cause because you told me everything has a cause.

The error is in the logic. Premise one is necessarily false. For there to be an uncaused cause, you must state that some whatevers are not caused, which would then allow for the universe to be one of those whatevers.

What impresses me about the commentary is its recognition of the misplacement of events, suggesting an understanding of the way things should be in ordinary life despite it not having lived life at all. It also recognized insensitivity, which suggests the machine is sensitive. I also thought its recognition of satire showed it wasn't committed to literalism. It read intent over direct meaning.

The main thing to note is that we've added valuable and relevant human content to this thread, thus shaming ChatGPT into silence. — Baden

Possibly, but ChatGPT's analysis of my comments is pretty dead on:

"This piece seems to blend absurdist humor with social commentary, though it can come off as jarring due to its provocative imagery and themes. The mix of surreal elements, like crying girls in construction work and eating cats, creates a bizarre narrative that challenges conventional logic. It seems to critique attitudes toward marginalized groups while using hyperbole to draw attention to societal issues.

However, the tone and content may be off-putting to some readers due to its casual treatment of sensitive subjects. If the intent is humor, it might benefit from a clearer structure or more context to avoid misinterpretation. Overall, it has potential, but it walks a fine line between satire and insensitivity. What are your thoughts on it?"

Thank you for your blog about Cyprus. I never knew there was so much dust there. Construction work can certainly be noisy and inconvenient during a holiday. B+ — Baden

You're not from the US, so you don't know this, but crying girls do most of our construction work in their underwear. It's been a real problem, so we started sending them to Cyprus because few, if any of us, care where that is. Once they go to Cyprus, they're not allowed to return because they eat our cats. If they're super hot though, P Diddy gets them over for his parties because he likes the freaky deaky stuff.

Now that's he's in full lock down, they're talking about building a wall to keep them out, but no wall's keeping America's wrecking ball sweetheart from crashing through.

Thank you for your short story about Henry and his toy train. I will never forget it. C+. — Baden

It's like the wrecking ball saw dynamite and believed itself to be obsolete, but then Miley Cyrus straddled it naked and it mattered again.

My analogy really brings the point home that just because you're currently being relegated to the dust bin due to your intellect being hopelessly deficient in comparison to what even the most rudimentary AI programs offer, if you hang in there, you too may be repurposed.

Just hang in there brother. Hang in there.

"Now the man that invented the steam drill
Thought he was mighty fine
But John Henry made fifteen feet
The steam drill only made nine, Lord, Lord
The steam drill only made nine

John Henry hammered in the mountains
His hammer was striking fire
But he worked so hard, he broke his poor heart
He laid down his hammer and he died, Lord, Lord
He laid down his hammer and he died

. . .

They took John Henry to the graveyard
And they buried him in the sand
And every locomotive comes a-roaring by
Says "There lies a steel-driving man, Lord, Lord
There lies a steel-driving man"

Well every Monday morning
When the bluebirds begin to sing
You can hear John Henry a mile or more
You can hear John Henry's hammer ring, Lord, Lord
You can hear John Henry's hammer ring."

It will make things up entirely, but it's 2024. My guess is in a few years, it'll be smarter than all of us. Except me.

But we're not permitted to kill the unconscious, so that must not be the basis for deciding if someone is a person.
— Hanover

If a child is brain dead and being kept alive on life support, the parents can decide to harvest the organs and remove life support. This society puts a lot of emphasis on the (supposed) personhood-brain connection. — RogueAI

I'm not sure of the distinction between brain dead and dead dead. But as to consciousness, you can be unconscious and have brain activity, like when you're asleep.

"haha, I'll keep acting unethically and reap the benefits of unethical behaviour".

Thank you for your irrelevant opinion. — Benkei

You don't provide any basis for why the acheivment of your objectives would be a more ethical way to run an economy. Looking at your worth criterion for example, it might be entirely obvious to you that a nurse ought make more than a professional athlete because nurses are more important than athletes, but it isn't to me. What is obvious to me is that we need nurses to acheive certain societal objectives, and the current system provides those nurses. If your system results in thousands of nurses and no athletes, I don't follow what ethical objective you acheived, other than to glut the market with the people you think are the best sorts of people.

To the extent you're now taxing the public by over supplying nurses and eliminating those folks you don't have as much regard for, that seems not only inefficient, but immoral in itself in that you're depriving people of resources just to promote those you like better than others. If there weren't enough nurses, I'd be in favor of figuring out a way to increase their numbers, but that's not what you're trying to acheive. You're just say nurses are worth more, so they get more.

The problem with your theory is that it isn't an economic theory at all, but it's a simplistic promotion of what you think are good values. At some point, market forces have to control this system or else you end up with too many nurses, and I'd suspect you're going to start having to select nurses on merit, but "merit" isn't identified in your trinity of values. Like it or not, people are going to choose professions based upon income received and so they'll look at your list of good folks and choose accordingly.

Your theory strikes me as a contemporary sort of Marxism, with the need element being directly from Marx and then the just production being a save the planet sort of ethics du jour element.

This is all to say if you want to create an economic theory, you have to look at what the consequences of that system will be. A car that doesn't run isn't worth having even if it was the most ethically produced car of all time. If your system causes economic collapse, it's hard to argue that was an ethical system.

Does it matter if our ethically designed economy results in starvation and invasion by Darwinstic nations?

I mean somewhere we have to guage it by its productivity and security..

But yes, please implement these ideas in your country. By taking yourself out of the competition, I get more. I'm not going to stop running my race because you've found the whole running thing beneath you.

Georgia Property and Liability Insurance Law, 2024 ed.

subsidiary argument which may not have been mentioned is, "Any species which develops systematic means to kill 70+ million of its own fetuses each year is messed up." A species which so buttresses the killing of its own offspring is not in good shape. For a species to intentionally kill its own fetuses is exceedingly unnatural. — Leontiskos

What makes abortion unnatural? Murder is an inherent part of humanity, particularly the murder of our own family members. Cain killed Abel after all, and there were only 4 people in all of creation at the time.

But despite our murderous tendencies, with domestic violence, wars, pollution, and even counting abortion, human populations continue to grow.

All is natural.

Argue ethics. That makes more sense.

Good points. But I'm wondering. We can say therr are just killings of people. For example, it's not murder when we execute a convicted murderer. Or when we kill in self-defence. But what is an example of a just killing of a fetus? When it puts the pregnant woman's life in danger seems like an obvious example. Any others? — Patterner

In a legalistic setting (as opposed to a philosophical one), the questions of when the taking of a life is justified and when it is not is just spelled out in whatever law you pass. That is, I can take a life to save my own, or another, or even to protect my dwelling. There need not be any underlying principle guiding any of this, but just whatever legislatures want to do.

So, if abortion is declared illegal in a very broad way, you end up with unintended consequences like what happened in Alabama. In vitro fertilization became illegal because the fertilized eggs in test-tubes were considered people because human life began at conception, which means their disposal was murder. You would have to preserve all unused fertilized eggs I guess forever. Maybe you'd have to create a birth certificate with each creation of life and a death certificate with each death and then send that to the department of vital records. That needs to be worked among those in Alabama, but that's the problem of the hard and fast rule that a sperm attached to an egg is a person fully endowed with rights.

Roe v. Wade, like it or not, created a workable solution from a pragmatic perspective and now all of this is opened back up to work out now that it no longer is controlling law.

It's interesting when it becomes more of a challenge to invent a problem than for the AI to solve it. — Christoffer

We're accepting that AI is artificial, which means that it does not go through the same curiousity humans do when they arrive at questions. The question isn't the process by which the program comes up with its questions, but it's whether the question asked is is indistinct from what we arrive at ourselves. We also have to realize that we don't actually know how our curiosity and creativity arises, and it's reasonable to assume a considerable amount comes from what we are taught or learned through just experiencing life.

The way this forum works, for example, is that a poster has a thought he believes philosophically interesting and so he posts it for feedback and discussion. I believe ChatGPT can arrive at good thread topics that would compete agaisnt what we see from real live posters.

I asked ChatGPT for an original topic to post here and it asked:

"If consciousness is the lens through which we experience reality, does altering this lens—through technology or substances—mean we are experiencing a different reality, or merely a different perception of the same reality?"

This question would pass muster on this Board and it would spark conversation. It is as well presented as anything else we see here and provokes questions above reality and direct and indirect realism. In terms of comparing this question to what the general non-philosophical public might consider, I'd suspect that it is more complex than the vast majority of people could arrive at.

We also have to keep in mind that the free version of ChatGPT is not the most sophisticated AI product on the market and not one specifically focused on philosophy, which means better questions and answers could be created.

My view is that AI advances will result in greater disparity between the higher and lower intellects. With chess, for example, the world didn't become filled with equally matched players, all who had the answers at the ends of their fingertips. The world became filled with higher chess performers who learned to utlize the programs to advance themselves. It's like if you and I worked with Einstein and you spent your days picking his brain and asking him every question you had about physics and I just avoided him because he was quirky and boring, you'd come out much smarter than me. Making information available helps only those with the curiosity to look at it.

So what, if any, philosophical questions does ChatGPT# ever raise (without begging them)? — 180 Proof

LLMs are still just sophisticated toys. — 180 Proof

I don't think this follows. Your question doesn't point out the lack of intelligence (artificial or otherwise) of the AI programs, but it points out the lack of emotion of the programs. I'm using the term "emotion" in its most original form, as in that which motivates or moves someone to do something. AI programs obviously have no internal desire to do anything, but they leave motivations to the users.

This isn't to say they couldn't have motivations planted within them consistent with the programer's needs and artificially appear thoughtful and philosophical. For example:

Me: Come up with unusual philosophical questions and provide me answers to them

ChatGPT: Here are some unusual philosophical questions along with thoughtful answers:

1. If a memory is shared between two people, does it belong to both?
Answer: Shared memories create a unique bond between individuals, suggesting a communal ownership. While each person may interpret the memory differently, the experience connects them. This raises questions about identity and the essence of personal experience: is a memory more valuable because it’s shared, or does that diminish its individuality?

2. If you could remove one emotion from human experience, would it be ethical to do so?
Answer: Removing an emotion could lead to unforeseen consequences. For example, if fear were eliminated, people might take reckless risks, undermining safety and survival. Emotions serve adaptive purposes; they guide behavior and enrich life. Ethically, tampering with the emotional spectrum could hinder personal growth and the depth of human connection.

3. Does the act of naming something change its essence?
Answer: Naming something often shapes our perception of it. The label we assign can influence our understanding and interactions. For example, calling a "weed" a "wildflower" changes how we appreciate its beauty. This suggests that language and perception are intertwined; naming can reflect and shape reality, emphasizing the subjective nature of existence.

4. If technology could accurately simulate any experience, would actual experiences lose their value?
Answer: While simulations could provide rich experiences, the authenticity of lived moments carries intrinsic value. Actual experiences are tied to context, emotions, and personal growth. Simulations might offer convenience or pleasure, but they lack the depth of genuine interactions. Value lies not just in the experience itself, but in the lessons and connections formed through it.

5. If an object is lost and then found, is it the same object?
Answer: This question touches on identity and continuity. The object's physical components may remain unchanged, but its context has shifted. Philosophically, it raises issues about identity over time: are we the same person as we were years ago? This suggests that objects and beings exist in a dynamic state, influenced by experiences and changes in meaning.

6. Is it possible to truly understand someone else’s perspective?
Answer: While empathy allows us to grasp another’s feelings and thoughts, complete understanding is elusive. Each person’s experiences, memories, and contexts are unique. We can strive for understanding, but our interpretations are always filtered through our own lenses. This invites humility in our interactions and an appreciation for the complexity of human experiences.

7. If a person creates art that evokes emotion in others, does the intention behind the art matter?
Answer: Intention plays a role in interpretation, but the emotional impact is often independent of the creator's goals. An artist may intend to provoke joy, but viewers might find sadness. This highlights the relationship between creator and audience, suggesting that art exists in a shared space where meaning is co-created. The dialogue between intention and reception enriches the artistic experience.

8. If you could live in a perfectly just society, would you still want to?
Answer: A perfectly just society may seem ideal, but it could lack the complexities that make life rich. Challenges and conflicts often drive growth, creativity, and community. A society without conflict might lead to stagnation or boredom. This raises questions about the balance between justice and the chaotic beauty of human experience.

These questions invite deeper exploration into existence, ethics, and human connection, encouraging us to reflect on the intricacies of life.

He made an interesting point, Patterner, I mean. If it's not legally considered a human, just another mass of organic matter of no significant value to the bearer, perhaps even undesired, it would be akin to placing a laxative in someone's food or drink, I believe is what his point is. — Outlander

This doesn't follow. The fact that we may not consider a fetus a person doesn't mean that we can't place the value of the death of the fetus over indigestion. The unjust killing of a person is murder. The unjust killing of a fetus is feticide.

It's consistent to protect the value of fetus without affording it the full rights of personhood. We offer differing values for differing things, human or not. Burning down your house will result in a more serious crime than burning your cigarette.

And this is consistent with Roe v. Wade law when abortion was legal. There were laws against feticide during those years and there were laws regulating the use of and disposal of fetal tissue and organs. It's not an all or nothing proposition where you either grant fetuses full rights of personhood or you treat them like ordinary refuse.

That's absurd. Parents (biological or other) not only have the right, but the duty to make decisions about their children's lives. Why should there not be a similar right and duty to make decisions about a foetus? After all, we allow people to make decisions for their relatives when they are ill and unable to make the decisions themselves. — Ludwig V

Parents don't have the right and duty to end their child's life.

But with that logic you would be murdering something to cover up a rape. Do two wrongs make a right? — Samlw

That wasn't my logic. You said that women should have a choice whether to have a child and I agreed. I then said that when a woman is raped, her right to decide whether to have a child has been violated (and she was violated in many other ways most certainly) and that is why many agree that in cases of rape abortion is permissible.

That is, one way women choose to have children is by having sex. It's the most common way actually. Women should have the right to choose to have children, but if they're raped and become pregnant, they were deprived that choice. For that reason, abortion might be argued to be permissible in that instance.

And I would argue that it shows an actual advancement in civilisation where we can safely choose whether or not to have a kid. — Samlw

The reason some allow for the exception for rape is because people should be given the right to choose to become pregnant. If the sex was consensual, the choice was made to expose yourself to the risk of pregnancy. That's how that works.

I'm not pro-life, by the way, largely because I rely upon a personhood definition when allowing for abortion. The problem is words lack essences, so we'll never figure out the specific moment when the fetus becomes a person. I don't believe though that the clear line distinction of personhood at conception is patently ridiculous. I just can't buy into a 1 day old conceptus being a person as we typically think of people, but I do get the other side's point.

In which case it would have to be discussed on what do we class as a life. Consciousness is believed to start developing around 24-26 weeks into the pregnancy. — Samlw

But we're not permitted to kill the unconscious, so that must not be the basis for deciding if someone is a person.

The US Supreme Court, prior to striking down Roe v. Wade, didn't rely upon consciousness either. It relied upon viability, meaning the ability of the fetus to survive on its own outside the womb.

Think about how many teenagers who don’t understand life have managed to have an abortion. Think, if they were forced to have that child would their quality of life decrease or increase? Obviously there would be cases of their life increasing but I believe the vast majority would have a decrease. — Samlw

Now you've arrived at a new criterion, which is to weigh the quality of life of the mother if she has the baby versus if she doesn't. Is this an objective evaluation I can perform for a woman, or do I just trust the woman when she tells me subjectively what she thinks will be a better life for her? Should married women of financial means be required to have the child where ill equipped teenagers should be allowed to abort? Do you use the "quality of life" criterion exclusively or do you also throw in a time period rule correlated to consciousnes of the fetus, where the woman has to decide before 24-26 weeks whether her life will be better or worse with the baby? If a woman says she thinks her life will be better with the baby and all objective analysis shows she's correct, but she feels social pressue to have the abortion, will she be forbidden to have the abortion, or is her choice supreme and unchallengable?

The point here is that this is not a simple question, which is why it is so hotly contested.

If there are more planets than possible words then you can't give each of them a different name. It doesn't matter if you have seen all of them. — Tarskian

I don't understand what it means to have more planets than possible worlds if possible worlds are infinite in number.

But, if you could have infinite planets, you could name each one as a number. I don't follow how there can be an infinite set of planets but not an infinite set of names.

For example, there are uncountably infinite real numbers. Therefore, it is impossible to express all of them in language. — Tarskian

This doesn't work. The fact that you can't express every number at once because there are an infinite number of numbers doesn't mean there is any single number that can't be expressed. That there is a certain number that has not been expressed in fact doesn't mean there is a certain number that cannot be expressed in theory.

That I've not seen all the planets doesn't mean those I've not seen are ineffable. That some are unknown doesn't make them incapable of being expressed once known.

Is here anything language can express? What does it mean to say that language "expresses"? — tim wood

The other extreme is asking whether there is anything that is expressed that is not language. We take language to be the symbolic representation of reality, where "cat" is another way of representing that thing that wakes you up to be fed every morning.

But that thing that looks like a cat is also but a symbolic representation of reality if you subscribe to a representational model where direct access to the cat is not available.

Does anybody have any experience with drafting an AI Code of Conduct? — Benkei

ChatGpt can provide you one if you'd just ask.

I'll dispense with the obvious for your benefit and say it's antii- natalism.

But I do agree with your comments about Witt.

That's nuts. — frank

I know. Now we've got to start over this whole thread now that we learn you don't need eyes or a brain to see.

Plants can see without eyes and without central nervous systems.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8903786/

It's sort of like what we see are the shadows on the wall cast from the fire behind us. We see a a distorted fragment of the world, but not the world itself.

I don't take credit for that analogy.

Are you OK? — Banno

Meh. So so.

Language games do not involve only words. They are locked into the world by what we do. So fortunately or unfortunately, you are not mere words. — Banno

What we do is "debate." What debating is how we use the term. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Hanover is ""Hanover" iff Hanover is "Hanover." What be Hanover without "Hanover"?

Silence!