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  • Deep Songs
    America - A Horse With No Name


    Neil Young - Old Man


    America - You Can Do Magic
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?
    Although Whitehead was a remarkable mathematician, apparently he was not a hard-nosed logician, or empirical scientist. Instead, like many mathematicians --- going back to Pythagoras, Pascal, and Ramanujan --- he seemed to view the world from the open-minded perspective of an artist or mysticGnomon

    I think the mystic and the rationalist are two sides of the same coin, like the left and right hemispheres of the brain, and the dichotomy between Eastern and Western modes of thought. I like to think of myself as a kind of 'logical mystic', or a "mysic of logic". The mystic tends to get a gestalt image of the whole process but misses the logical details, while the rationalist tends to focus on minute details of the whole process but misses the big picture. This is similar to the relationship between reductionism and holism; one needs both to grasp the comprehensive logical picture. We must bring to bare the whole of our minds on the whole of the mystery. There is a key, and i do believe it can be found (certain keys have already been found), but it is like a needle in a haystack. The solution might be to burn the heystack to ashes in order to reveal the key within. :smile:

    There is one truth between two perspectives:
    cylindershadows.jpeg
  • The logic of a universal origin and meaning
    How does the super-atomic world approaching absolute zero temperature and the cessation of motion become a 0-dimensional point?ucarr

    It doesn't actually become a 0-dimensional point; rather, it resembles the state of a 0-dimensional point because there is no room for movement within a 0-dimensional point, as in the case of the maximally packed marbles.

    Time and space coalesce and break symmetry only to spawn a new symmetry of anti-object pairs extruded at 180 degrees from each other?ucarr

    I wouldn't exactly phrase it as "Time and space coalesce and break symmetry", and it's currently a bit complex to explain concisely. However, the rest of the statement is correct. The only qualification i would make is that it's not a new symmetry, but rather can be thought of as a reflection of the underlying broken symmetry of space itself. These particles can be considered holographic projections that reflect, in their properties, the whole to which they belong.

    Time and space persist in independence, each holding its own properties?ucarr

    Well, i think space is actually a property of time. I can imagine non-spatial continuity, but i cannot see how space can exist without the property of continuity (or "absolute" time). If it were possible for space to exist without continuity, it wouldn't be a universe, or at least not our universe.

    You describe temporal energy by taking recourse to a description of a river. Absolute time is a logical narration of something we cannot visualize directly? I'm wondering if time - even posited as absolute - emerges from mass_energy, especially given the eternity of mass-energy. Might the relationship be bi-conditional?ucarr

    It can only be perceived through the light of logic in the mind's eye. As for the rest of your question, perhaps this from my notes can answer some of it. These are my own personal terms:

    What is "0th order time"?
    0th order time is what one might call "absolute time," "primordial time," or "non-relativistic time." It is the basis of continuity in space and is instantaneous in its action. It is timeless in the sense that it never began and never will end. It represents the first degree of freedom within a single 0-dimensional point. This point is a single element of time and space, and is an abstract process or function self-contained in an elemental point space. Without this 0th order time, there can be no existence because it is the ground of existence itself.

    What is "1st order time"?
    1st order time is an emergent kind of time characterized by intervals in quantized multi-point space. This interval nature emerges from the instantaneous transmission from one space point to another. Each space point contains within it the temporal characteristics of 0th order time. Although the transmission of a state to the next point is instantaneous, from successive instances emerges a finite rate of propagation we call the "speed of light". This is the maximum speed at which a state signal can travel along a path of multiple spatial state points. Quantized space has the effect of quantizing time in multi-point space, and thus quantizes energy.

    So absolute zero temperature in the way you are describing has never been the case, ever. Also, absolute primordial time is not defined by spatial motion. It is better defined as temporal motion, which can appear as stationary and not moving. This temporal motion can be visualized as a kind of spin: a spherical object spinning inside a 0-dimensional point. It can move but only as rotation, not linearly. As soon as the object moves linearly in relation to another object, it breaks into the 1st dimension. — punos


    By your description - as I understand it - absolute time conserves the mass_energy symmetry.
    ucarr

    I'll explain it this way: According to my model, the kind of energy that constitutes mass originates from the logic of continuity. When symmetric continuity is broken, the logic of time represents that break in space as energy (the measure of the break), and mass is the qualitative expression of that energy in space. Spatial energy exists solely for this reason: to conserve and restore symmetry. Once energy completes its work, it instantly disappears, as do the particles that carried it.

    To put it another way, the actual symmetry break conserves the mass/energy since it is a direct expression of the break itself.

    My question relates to another question of mine, Does causation have a temporal component? Let's imagine that Plant A releases Pollen A. Joe is not allergic to Pollen A, so Pollen A WRT Joe is not a cause of hay fever, an effect. Bill is allergic to Pollen A, so Pollen A is a cause of hay fever WRT Bill. Since Pollen A has two incompatible identities simultaneously, it seems to me causation is atemporal.ucarr

    I think what i wrote about 0th order time and 1st order time might answer at least some of your question, potentially addressing the instantaneous transmission of states between two points. Let me know if it answers your question or not.

    I have this idea that if consciousness is emergent from gravitational fields interacting, then around event horizons of black holes, in the run up to the infinite curvature of spacetime, continuity of events, vis., history, becomes deterministic. That light cannot escape a gravitational circularity means that it is determined. The visible light reflected off things determined illuminates that determination. Everything that happens must happen. Cosmic reality overall, however, isn't deterministic when sufficiently far from black holes. This might suggest to us black holes are anchors of cosmic history in that they constrain to some degree what can happen.ucarr

    I do think that gravity might consist of some sort of diffuse consciousness in space, depending on how we define consciousness, of course. However, i'm not sure what you mean by "becomes deterministic". I'm a determinist and do not believe in either randomness or 'free will'. I don't have a satisfactory model for either of those concepts, and strongly suspect that they do not exist as we commonly think they do. I do agree that interesting phenomena can occur at the edge of black holes, such as "frame dragging".

    Might our "pure reason and logic together with what we already know" also be distorted by the insuperable relative time subject to the distortions of the speed of light, gravity, and our nervous systems?ucarr

    Sure, maybe, but can you give an example of such a case of distortion?
  • What Are You Watching Right Now?
    This video had a profound formative influence on me when i first saw it as a young preteen on PBS. It changed my perspective, and i have never thought about things in quite the same way since.

    Peter Russell - The Global Brain
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?
    Perhaps you did not like that i used the word "idealism"? — punos

    ???
    180 Proof

    I'm sorry, i was under the impression you were reacting to this:
    However, if we adopt the perspective of the universe itself, everything should appear as conceptual. So idealism in general terms, is probably correct.punos

    Considering:
    (non-idealist, non-telos woo woo) foundational insights from which "process philosophy" is derived.180 Proof
  • The logic of a universal origin and meaning
    "If we consider a container that is packed maximally tight with marbles as a near-zero entropy, do we arrive at picture of a zone wherein physics is almost at a standstill and relative time likewise?"ucarr

    You could say that, but remember the box example is an analogy that breaks down after a certain point. The zone you would be referring to would be a 0-dimensional point. You can call it a space with no place to move. The packed box is like this point.

    Now, i need to say that this situation never really happened. It is a conceptual device to capture the logic. Since primordial time is timeless and has always been, some form of "physical" universe has always existed.

    "Might such a zone have extreme asymmetry because, being near the zero state, there can be only asymptotic progression in one half of the oscillation cycle towards the storage of energy (as opposed to the consumption of extreme heat)?"ucarr

    If i understand your question correctly, let me put it like this: You can picture this primordial point with some kind of unstoppable force (continuity) running through it like a river. It's a kind of energy that is non-spatial (temporal). This "river" deposits energy (water) into the point. The point has a spatial limit of one object. The temporal energy converts to spatial energy at this point until a natural limit is reached. At this moment, because the temporal energy flow through this point continues and is unstoppable, the object that had been formed is forced out. This is the moment in which the effects of breaking symmetry appear. The forcing out of this object takes the pattern of two anti-object pairs extruded at 180 degrees from each other. This event formed the 1st dimension and can accommodate more objects with a higher object density limit. Every point in this 1-dimensional space is an exact functional replica of the original point space, with the same temporal energy flowing through each one.

    So absolute zero temperature in the way you are describing has never been the case, ever. Also, absolute primordial time is not defined by spatial motion. It is better defined as temporal motion, which can appear as stationary and not moving. This temporal motion can be visualized as a kind of spin: a spherical object spinning inside a 0-dimensional point. It can move but only as rotation, not linearly. As soon as the object moves linearly in relation to another object, it breaks into the 1st dimension.

    "From this we see that causation is perhaps a specifically complex type of motion. Specific complex states of material systems are configured for specific functions that are their effects."ucarr

    Yes, you are right, but this is what happens with already existing things. It's a little different at the most fundamental level, where time's flow through space causes the quantum foam of virtual particles. These virtual particles can then go on to form more complex kinds of cause and effects, determined by their specific evolved structures.

    "Here perhaps the time element becomes tricky to track. If something is a cause, then it's implied the effect co-exists in time with its effect, otherwise a thing is just a thing, not a cause, and vice versa."ucarr

    I'm not certain i understand what you mean by a cause co-exists with its effect in time. Can you clarify?

    "If all fundamental components of mass-energy are re-configurable across the total scope of material creation, then each thing emergent is a road map to all other things."ucarr

    Sounds about right.

    "You're saying entropic time is an emergent dynamism of mass-energy-motion-space? If so, does this let us envision entropic time as a higher order of mass-energy-motion-space?"ucarr

    I wouldn't call it a higher order of mass-energy-motion, but there are emergent forms of space which are different from the regular spatial dimensions. Every emergent level is an emergent space in which only certain things can exist. This is what i mean by emergent space. Cyberspace is an example; biological space is another. A planet is a kind of emergent space on which only certain things can exist and develop. What changes mostly on the road to emergence is patterns of matter (information).

    "Since acceleration and gravitation de-accelerate passing time, history as sentient reality is configured by the bending and stretching and curving of the higher order of ductile time?"ucarr

    Please elaborate.

    "Is it possible to configure an experiment that makes predictions about the natural world that will point a phenomenal finger at a logically necessary conclusion about the necessity of making an inference to absolute time?"ucarr

    I think that what humans usually call time is just relative time, and relative time can be distorted by the speed of light, gravity, and our nervous systems. Things happen at absolute times, and then relative time distorts and modifies our perception of it. I don't really think an experiment will show us anything different. We will always see the relative effect of absolute time only. The only thing that can penetrate these relative effects and reach through to the other side of the relative veil is the use of pure reason and logic together with what we already know. Consider how Neptune was discovered.
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?

    I don't know; it seems okay to me unless i misread or misunderstood something. Perhaps you did not like that i used the word "idealism"?
  • What are you listening to right now?
    Lulu Rouge - Ninna Nanna


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    Lulu Rouge - End Of The Century


    Lulu Rouge - Melankoli (feat. Alice Carreri) :monkey:
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?
    "I'm not familiar with the notion of "Primordial Time" as a "non-physical process". And I can't imagine a temporal process that does not involve physical objects : e.g. Darwinian Evolution. Our intuition of Time and Process is based on the changes we observe in the material world. But we also create Metaphors from that sensory experience to explain apparent changes in mental states over time : alterations in mood, behavior, thought patterns, and level of awareness. Can you explain "timeless time" in an example that is not an oxymoron*1?"Gnomon

    For me, the adjective "timeless" means never having a beginning or ending. It's not my favorite word for it, however i use it because i assume it's what people generally mean by it, though i might be wrong about that.

    The usual way i try to explain it is by asking one to imagine a completely empty space. No matter, no energy, no quantum foam, nothing at all, no time. This is a blank state with zero degrees of freedom, and what we want to do is ask the question: What is the first thing that we need (the first degree of freedom) to set up the required initial conditions out of which this universe can emerge?

    I've concluded that the first thing to add to this blank space is the potential for change. It must be able to change in order for anything to occur. This is the first degree of freedom: something that has causal power. It is the primordial pattern of state continuity (primordial time). This means, first, that an object can indeed be placed in this temporal space, and more than that, it can continue to occupy its given space by virtue of this power of causal continuity. It doesn't mean it has to move; it simply means it can exist. Notice that if there were a room that did not contain this temporal continuity, you wouldn't even be able to walk or enter into it. It would feel like a maximally solid barrier to you; some sort of deep, black, solid object.

    After a thing exists by the power of temporal continuity, things that exist can interact with other things that exist, governed by the rules of temporal logic (Logos). This interactivity of existing things constitutes the emergence of relative time (entropic time).

    Ask yourself this question: What is the meaning of time if there were only one object in an otherwise infinitely empty space? How is time measured? What is the arrow of time for this object?

    Also, what is it that even allows process to happen? Physically or otherwise.

    "Do you see any parallels between your "non-physical process that yields physicality", and Husserl's "flow, that serves as raw material for our abstractions of ordinary objects and perceptions"?"Gnomon

    I'm not familiar with Husserl, but this "flow" sounds familiar and appears to resonate with part of my model of time. I'm not sure if it's the same, but one of the ways i envision it is as a 0-dimensional point that has a kind of "non-physical" force or energy running through it constantly, depositing or converting "temporal energy" into "spatial energy" (physicality from our human perspective). There is a limit to how much of this temporal energy can be held in this 0-dimensional point, which i believe is the reason, or cause of the symmetry break and the nature of quantized energy states in quantum mechanics.

    When the spatial energy reaches its limit in the point space, it changes its state into something like an infinitesimally small "black hole". This little "black hole" is what fundamental physical particles are. Black holes form when the maximum density of energy is reached in a certain location in space, and it follows the same general pattern as in the particle case. For this reason, i believe stellar black holes are incursions into the 4th dimension, just as fundamental particles are the result of incursions into the 3rd dimension from the 2nd. Each dimension has its own kind of fundamental particles.

    I don't have everything worked out, of course, and i also experiment with different ways of explaining or describing it. The way that the "temporal energy" is deposited or concentrated in the point space, as per my description, can be worked out in a more detailed manner or perhaps even in a completely different way altogether.
  • What are you listening to right now?
    Midi Brotherhood - The Superself


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    Primal - Hurricane (Lulu Rouge Remix)


    Digital Structures - Sno Pе Hissingen (Original mix)


    Radical Genome Indivisiblé - Planet Gong trance mission
  • The logic of a universal origin and meaning

    Is a block of perfectly frozen water wet? Is water vapor wet? :chin:
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?
    I'm suddenly reminded of The Never Ending Story.

    The "Nothing":
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?
    I had never heard of "Neutral Monism", so I Googled it. If the Monistic Entity (Singularity?) is "neither physical nor mental", what is it? Spiritual ; Essence ; Substance? Is the "Neutral Entity" G*D?Gnomon

    I don't know if you can or should call it anything. All of those words are simultaneously right and wrong. We can call it "nothing" or we can have different words to address different aspects of it at different times.

    "Is "Neutral Quantum Process Monism" an extant philosophical concept, or did you just make it up for this thread?"Gnomon

    I made it up for this thread as a suggestion for a possible name to give this framework.
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?
    "Who or what does the separating? Is the separation physical or conceptual??? How does this plugging & unplugging fit into Whitehead's Process Philosophy?"Gnomon

    From the perspective of the model i'm currently working with, i believe the answer is primordial time (also known as timeless time). Primordial time is a non-physical process/substance that yields physicality. I explain this temporal logic in a little more detail below:

    Primordial time is active logic. The logical operation of negation, or more precisely inversion, is its main function. The temporal operation of inversion contains within it the operations of disjunction and conjunction. It's a bit tricky to explain correctly, but inversion implies two opposite states. If NOT 0, then 1; if NOT 1, then 0. This means that NOT includes within it 0 AND 1, but only 0 OR 1 at a time. This logic in time resembles a kind of trinity of NOT, AND, OR, and neither one can exist without the others thus they are one. These three operators can not be broken down any further without destroying logic itself, it is indivisible. It is the maximum simplicity, and minimal complexity needed for the universe to exist as it is.

    The trinity of logic:

    NOT = (AND, OR)
    OR = (NOT AND)
    AND = (NOT OR)
    punos

    To gain some context for what i'm saying, you might find it useful to read my posts at "The logic of a universal origin and meaning"

    The distinction between physical and conceptual, as you put it, is a matter of relativity. From the perspective of the universe, it is conceptual, and from the perspective of things within the universe, it is physical. However, if we adopt the perspective of the universe itself, everything should appear as conceptual. So idealism in general terms, is probably correct.

    This temporal logic can, if one wishes, be called God, or not. It makes no difference what word you use because things are not words. Things are what they do. In another thread i posted in, i compared the universe to a computer, saying that if the universe were a computer, then time would be its CPU processor, and space would be its RAM memory. Active logic (time/CPU) coupled with memory (space/RAM) are the minimal requirements for a mind of any kind.
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?

    I forgot to mention that this underlying symmetry seems to philosophically resemble the neutral substance proposed in neutral monism. I propose that this is one of the resonant connection points between physics and metaphysics, particularly with some version of neutral monism.

    Perhaps a suitable name for this kind of monism could be "Neutral Quantum Process Monism" (NQPM). :smile:
  • The logic of a universal origin and meaning
    Because the small hydrogen atom rolls around the much larger oxygen atom, plus the hydrogen ions are freely traded back and forth.PoeticUniverse

    That's why water looks and feels the way it does to us. But notice, where is wetness when you only have one water molecule? What about two molecules, or three? When does wetness begin?
  • The logic of a universal origin and meaning
    "Your use of "emergence" in your context here refers to the existence of material things as distinguished from the sense of "emergence" that describes attributes of a system emergent from the parts of the system acting collectively? An example of the latter sense is water emergent from the bonding of hydrogen and oxygen atoms."ucarr

    Yes, that is how i'm using the term "emergence". Emergence begins after the first physical particles appear or manifest. The first emergence is the result of fundamental particles interacting. All other consequent emergences are higher-order complex structures composed of lower emergent complex (yet simpler) structures.

    The feeling of water being wet is an abstraction in our own minds about what our nervous system detects regarding the structure and ongoing interactions of water molecules or any liquid state of matter.

    "How is the simplicity of a physical thing logical? As a clarification of what I'm asking: when an oxygen atom bonds with a hydrogen atom, any logic pertinent to the sharing of electrons between the two atoms is an abstract thought within the mind of the observer."ucarr

    Yes, that is a product of the passive form of logic that enables us to abstract in our minds what is happening in the outside world.

    "These are physical boundaries established by the covalent bonding in water. If we picture an initial state of matter without the physical boundaries of chemistry, how does logic go about holding atoms and molecules together?"ucarr

    By the time chemical organization emerges, there would already be many such boundaries. The first fundamental particles provide the kind of necessary boundaries i believe you're referring to. Fundamental particles have spherical boundaries, and they form atoms, atoms form molecules, and there you have chemistry.

    "I have a distinction between passive, and active logic. Passive logic is what we humans do, but the universe does active logic. It's a reversal of polarity in the process of logic. The universe processes logic forward onto itself (creating what is true and real), and people process logic from the universe onto themselves to ascertain the truth of the universe or what is real. — punos


    The arrow of time is future to present? Passive logic is reactive whereas active logic is creative?"
    ucarr

    The arrow of time is an effect of entropy; it is an emergence and is not fundamental. Consider a container that is packed maximally tight with marbles. The entropy of the box in this state is 0. Nothing can move inside this box. For these marbles to move, they need space to move into. If you begin to increase the size of the box, the marbles inside begin to move and take on different states or locations in relation to the other marbles. This is where entropy begins. It is a spreading out or diffusion of matter (energy and information) in space. The more space, the more possible states, and thus more entropy.

    The arrow of time, therefore, is the direction of order (information) itself. Going from a state of 0 entropy to a state of maximum entropy is what the forward arrow of time means. For the arrow of time to be reversed, one must make the box smaller and smaller until all the marbles are packed tight again and unable to move. This does not reverse time itself, but it does reverse the arrow of time. The increase in size of the box is akin to the breaking of symmetry, and the tightly packed non-moving marbles are akin to a state of perfect symmetry. A 0 entropy state theoretically has time, but no arrow of time.

    And yes, i believe you have it right about the passive and active forms of logic.

    "Cause and effect form a temporal relation?"ucarr

    Well, yes, in the sense that cause comes before effect. Of course, after the initial effect, that effect then becomes the cause for the next event, and thus the chain of causality continues, governed by the logic of time.

    "Non-entropic time absent of space and matter holds tucked within itself entropic time?"ucarr

    The potential for entropic time is, in a sense, latent in primordial or non-entropic time, but it cannot emerge until the first instance of space and matter, or energy in space.

    "Non-entropic time passes independent of activity and events?"ucarr

    I would say that is correct according to my model.

    "Non-entropic time is non-physical?"ucarr

    Yes, you could say that.

    "Humans know of non-entropic time only indirectly through inference?"ucarr

    Yes.

    "Since non-entropic time never stops, can we infer to no absolute zero temperature and no cessation of motion?"ucarr

    Fundamentally, non-entropic time has no temperature, as temperature is a measure of the average energy or movement of particles in an entropic state. You need space with free particles for there to be temperature.

    "Is motion an effect of causation?"ucarr

    Everything except time is the effect of causation.

    "Is the logical ordinality of the universe: time, causation, and space-motion-energy-mass?"ucarr

    1. primordial/non-entropic time (causation)
    2. space
    3. energy-mass-motion (energy in space is caused by primordial time)

    "Help me examine whether your first two sentences directly above are incompatible with each other. First you say "time can be analyzed..." thereby suggesting time can be broken down into more fundamental parts.

    Next you say "If it is its own reason, then by that reason we can know it..." thereby declaring time is fundamental and cannot be broken down into more fundamental parts. "
    ucarr

    Primordial time is active logic. The logical operation of negation, or more precisely inversion, is its main function. The temporal operation of inversion contains within it the operations of disjunction and conjunction. It's a bit tricky to explain correctly, but inversion implies two opposite states. If NOT 0, then 1; if NOT 1, then 0. This means that NOT includes within it 0 AND 1, but only 0 OR 1 at a time. This logic in time resembles a kind of trinity of NOT, AND, OR, and neither one can exist without the others thus they are one. These three operators can not be broken down any further without destroying logic itself, it is indivisible. It is the maximum simplicity, and minimal complexity needed for the universe to exist as it is.

    The trinity of logic:
    • NOT = (AND, OR)
    • OR = (NOT AND)
    • AND = (NOT OR)
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?
    That "disembodied quality", its causal value or voltage, is imagined as an inherent property of the particle, but where does the causal charge come from?Gnomon

    Well, the way i currently see it, charge can be understood as a manifestation of broken symmetry in space. This perspective is based on the idea that particles like electrons and positrons are not isolated entities but rather parts of a symmetric whole that has been separated by some measure.

    When an electron is created, it is always accompanied by the creation of a positron. Similarly, an electron can only be "destroyed" through interaction with a positron, and vice versa. This suggests to me that an underlying symmetry, when broken by temporal decay, produces two particles that represent the energetic difference between the asymmetric state of the particle and its original symmetric state. Each particle thus carries the complementary charge energy that completes its antipair.

    Charge can thus be seen as an accounting mechanism by which the universe keeps track of local symmetry breaks, enabling particles to "know" where to go and which particles to fuse with to restore symmetry. The difference between the symmetric and asymmetric states forms the basis of electromagnetic energy. Electromagnetism appears to serve the goal of bringing opposite charges together to restore symmetry, though perfect restoration is never fully achieved throughout.

    About symmetry:
    From our human perspective, this symmetry appears as nothing until it is broken. Perceiving this symmetry, at least from a physical standpoint, is impossible. No empirical method whatsoever can ever ascertain it.

    A simple way to conceptualize this is by imagining a perfectly black piece of paper against a perfectly black background: the paper is present but imperceptible, appearing as though it doesn’t exist at all. Coloring the paper a different color, such as white (an inversion), immediately makes it noticeable, as if it suddenly came into existence (an illusion). The difference in color can be thought of as representing the energy of the paper in relation to the background. This is not a perfect analogy, but it serves to illustrate the nature of what appears to exist as opposed to what appears to not exist.
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    A Hundred Drums - Lord Of Tings (feat. Jayne Gray) [Leon Switch Remix]
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  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?
    What about gravity (re: GR)?180 Proof

    I have an idea about how gravity might work, but i'm not ready to share it yet. One thing i can say is that i believe gravity emerges from dark energy. I also have an idea about what dark energy is and how it works, but it's still an incomplete concept. I'm sure i'll share it someday.
  • The logic of a universal origin and meaning
    First, a fantastic post and analysis! I rarely get this deep of an analysis, I'll hopefully rise to the occasion.Philosophim

    That is very kind of you, thank you. :smile:

    Correct, though I would slightly recast that into, "Logic is an essential principle in any existence."Philosophim

    Yes, that's good. I concur.

    Your idea of time is interesting, though for my purposes I'm not trying to assert any one thing which has to be uncaused. Still, great read and neat idea.Philosophim

    :smile: :up:
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?
    So "space" is "disembodied" (i.e. non-physical)? What about gravity (re: GR)? :chin:

    [energy is] a property of space from which particles emerge

    Yes, afaik, makes sense.
    180 Proof

    You could say that "space" is the quality of "disembodiment", and particles have the quality or property of "embodiment".

    This is just a conceptual model, but i conceptualize time and space as a circle with a point at its center. The center point represents time, while the circumference represents space. We exist on the circumference. The body of space is the circumference itself, and particles are disturbances at points along this circumference. Time is directly connected to every point on the circumference by the radius. I find this to be a useful construction for thinking about this subject. There are other models too that can work just as well.
  • The logic of a universal origin and meaning
    By saying "there is no limitation to the number of forms that can be via emergence." are you making reference to abstract thought?ucarr

    Yes, and no. If you take the human perspective then no it would appear as solid and real, but if one takes the perspective of the universe, to the universe it appears as abstractions of itself.

    These are boundaries of a physical system in its initial state?ucarr

    No, i do not believe there are boundaries at the initial state except for logical boundaries.

    These rules are prescriptive restrictions on what the universe can be?ucarr

    Yes. If it could have been anything, or can be anything at any time then we will have chaos, and no possibility of coherence.

    Reason and logic are mental abstractions tied to (and emergent from) physical antecedants?ucarr

    I have a distinction between passive, and active logic. Passive logic is what we humans do, but the universe does active logic. It's a reversal of polarity in the process of logic. The universe processes logic forward onto itself (creating what is true and real), and people process logic from the universe onto themselves to ascertain the truth of the universe or what is real.

    The antecedents are qualities or properties from which physicality emerges.

    Passing time is the engine of causation? Is there a form of passing time both eternal and non-relative?ucarr

    Correct, passing time is the engine of causation.

    And yes, there is primordial time which is non-entropic time absent of space, and matter. Once extended space and matter come into the picture the arrow of time is formed through entropic (relative) processes. So relative time emerges from non-relative time i guess you can say.

    Time-authored energy is subject to the symmetries and their conservation laws?ucarr

    Very much so, yes.

    Time appears to be the centerpiece of your cosmology. The universe reduces to time passing eternally without interruption?ucarr

    Yes it must be so.

    If energy is the ability to move, then time supports a multiplex with mass-energy-motion-space as its components?ucarr

    Not sure how to answer this one, can you restate the question?

    Time is fundamental and thus unapproachable by analysis?ucarr

    Not necessarily. It can by analyzed by the pure logic of its own being. If it is its own reason, then by that reason we can know it, but we have to learn how to apply the logic correctly in the right order. This will be hard to accept by a pure materialist/empiricist.

    Thank you for your questions. They were good questions. :smile:
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?
    What would you expect to happen if you could exorcise a particle of its soul? :wink:Gnomon

    I do not believe it can be done. If I had an electron in my right hand and were to extract the rest energy of that electron with my left hand, the electron would disappear from my right hand, and then when i look in my left hand, i would find an identical electron. You see, it appears to me that energy can exist without taking the form of a particle, but a particle cannot exist without the energy that forms it. This leads me to conclude that whatever energy is, it is a more fundamental entity than the form of the particle. It appears to be some kind of disembodied quality that is not a property of particles, but a property of space from which particles emerge. :sparkle:

    Does that make any sense?
  • The logic of a universal origin and meaning
    "For example, we may not know exactly what causes a quark to exist, let alone 'this' specific quark in the nylon string. But that doesn't mean that there isn't something that makes up that quark. The limits of knowledge are not the limits of reality."Philosophim

    This is an essential acknowledgment. :up:

    "I like to describe this as a chain as there is a start and end with various possible points of scoped time and composition along this line that link the two together."Philosophim

    I like to think of it in terms of cycles, with smaller (shorter) harmonic cycles of cause and effect nested within. The resonant cycle for a given layer of emergence determines its time unit and rate of process or progression. Things happen faster at smaller scales than they do at larger ones.

    "Unlimited or Limited?
    With this all in mind, there comes the ultimate question and scope: Is there an origin to existence itself? This is as expansive of a scope as you can get, both compositionally and through time. Can we handle such a question? I think we can construct a rational conclusion using logical limits."
    Philosophim

    This is another essential acknowledgment. :up:

    "1. There is no limitation as to what 'could' have been, or can be."Philosophim

    This is my first contention from your OP. I would restate it like this:

    "There is a logical limitation as to the form of that which could have been, or can be, but there is no limitation to the number of forms that can be via emergence."

    I believe that there is an initial pattern or rule of maximal simplicity or minimal complexity that serves as the seed from which the universe extends. This initial primordial rule is the logic and reason for the form our universe takes. It determines what is true (real) and what is false (not real). Notice that you are using logic in your analysis to determine what does or doesn't happen in the universe. Why would the universe follow these logical rules if they were not there to begin with? What i am essentially saying is that reason (logic) is the basis for the universe in any form it takes. Reason and logic are held within the infinitesimal expanse (0 dimensional space, or latent space) of primordial time.

    This primordial time had no cause, as it is the reason for cause. Time is the infinite energy by which logic acts upon the universe. Logic is a comparator function that takes what is and processes what will be. The initial comparison is upon itself. A vast infinite emptiness in all directions gives us the shape of a sphere, and this is why all fundamental particles are spherical in nature. There is no other information at this point from which to draw from to inform the shape of particles. To keep it simple, i won't get into how or why these particles have the energy they have, except to say that it comes from time itself.

    "Imagine a universe which is composed only entire of rocks. If it formed, there would be no prior cause for why it formed, and no prior cause for what it should not have formed. Meaning it could form, or could not form. There is nothing to prevent nor necessitate that it does or does not form. Our U formed. But it didn't 'have' to form."Philosophim

    The universe must form because time does not stop and always acts. The nature of time or energy is that it must move, it must flow with no exceptions. Time (energy) is the unstoppable force, and if it finds it cannot move, it then spawns spatial dimensions to accommodate the necessary forced movement (progression, process). Each progressive spatial dimension does not form or come into existence until it is necessary, and they all extend from the temporal dimension, which is contained in the primordial 0-dimensional point throughout all of space. Time is not the 4th dimension; it is the 0th dimension.
  • PROCESS PHILOSOPHY : A metaphysics for our time?

    Thought experiment:
    Imagine we have two boxes and a particle, say an electron. What would happen if we were to separate the electron from its rest energy? Would we be able to place an energyless particle in one box and the rest energy in the other box?
  • What are you listening to right now?
    I don't like the first bit too much, but the interesting part begins approximately at the 2:50 mark.

    clocolan - Empathy (alpha)
  • What are you listening to right now?
    No Etiquette - New Paradigm
  • Ontology of Time
    Doctor Who diagnosed gravity as being the cause of Time's tumor, and in the operating room, when they opened him up, they found a black hole inside.PoeticUniverse

    Oh, that's not good. Not good at all. I'm sure the gravity of the situation was not lost on anyone in the operating room.

    Okay okay, let's not derail this thread. As you were everyone, as you were.
  • Ontology of Time
    I've been researching cancer and i suddenly read the title of this thread as "Oncology of Time".

    Breaking News:
    Father Time has been diagnosed with a rare, cosmic form of "temporal tumor". His hourglass is leaking sand at an alarming rate, causing Tuesdays to last for three weeks and weekends to vanish entirely.

    Don't take time for granted, or it might develop a serious medical condition that requires a specialist in the very niche field of "Temporal Oncology". And definitely, definitely, get a second opinion from Doctor Who.

  • Deep Songs
    Simply Red - Holding Back The Years
  • What are you listening to right now?
    Play loud, dig deep, and elevate...

    Yin Yang Audio - Elevation (Original Mix)
  • What Are You Watching Right Now?
    The medium is the message? Nah.Arcane Sandwich

    Nah. Acoustic space!
  • What Are You Watching Right Now?
    Marshall McLuhan - Living in an Acoustic World
  • What are you listening to right now?
    That's what philosophers do. I'm a professional philosopher. I don't do that. Not often, at least.Arcane Sandwich

    I don't either. Not often at least.

    Because it's like a mind drug.Arcane Sandwich

    Not sure what you mean here, but it's not important. You should do philosophy how you do philosophy. :smile:
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