This is an interesting question, thank you for asking. If I want to genuinely learn, remember and master a subject, I need to "play with it". This includes the information, content and structure(s) that will lead me to (a) knowing.

Let's take computer programming as an example. I taught myself to build websites and software for the Web. Beyond the preexisting tutorials and other learning resources that I ingested in my learning process, I playfully put that information into practice with personal projects and late night coding sessions.

It could be said that I am a hands-on learner, regardless of how I am handling data.

Now I do see what you're saying. Those are excellent points. Thank you for clarifying. I will need to do some reflection on what you're saying here.

Technology seems to be especially suited for such an unquestioning, mechanicistic, and optimistic approach to religion/spirituality. — baker

That's an interesting perspective. I hadn't considered this issue from that vantage yet. I might agree with you on most of what you're saying here; how technology would enable an unquestioning and optimistic approach to spirituality.

It is already happening in the Pagan communities. — Bret Bernhoft

In my observations, Technopaganism is a legitimate form of religious practice. Likely with millions of participants; no belief required. The only paradigm shift that is necessary, is an embrace of universal Animism.



At the center of this underground renaissance are the EDM DJs. Legendary figures. Priests, some might say.



This spirituality was legitimized in the minds of many tens of millions of people via the international festival scene. We're entering a "stage two" for the emergence of a worldwide, techno-optimistic religion.

The second quote attempts to explain the first. — 180 Proof

I see now. Thank you for clarifying.

If anything, I see a convergence between what you call "techno-optimistic religion" and existing religions/spiritualities. — baker

I see this happening too. It is already happening in the Pagan communities.

"I have no idea" because what you describe, Bret, does not make any sense to me. — 180 Proof

That's interesting. I don't know what to say to that. I definitely respect your position here, but can you explain more about what I have described that confuses you?

Post-singularity ubiquitous smart nanotech seems more likely to transform planetary civilization into a Global Experience Machine^ (à la "The Matrix" or wireheading^^) than to enable hedonic beings to somehow "transcend" (or to religiously seek "transcendence from") being hedonic. — 180 Proof

This is good. And is (IMO) a major part of what our planet will become. Just as T. McKenna would imply, we will be swallowing our computers whole in the near-future.

The tone of some cosmism seems to be similar to your modern techno-optimism, though of course the technological focus has changed. — Jamal

Indeed, the technological focus has changed. And with it, the distance between our species and the stars has shortened.

If I understand correctly, Cosmism directly inspired today's Transhumanist movement. One being the intellectual and spiritual predecessor to the other. What is even more astounding, if true, is that most Transhumanist haven't even heard of Cosmism.

Alright. I will change the subject in future posts.

Just don't confuse it with anything spiritual. — Wayfarer

That's an interesting perspective, in my opinion. I've heard the same echoed about Gnosticism by a number of reputable sources; that they would not have embraced a techno-optimistic religion.

I find much about technology to be a form of spiritual experience, or embodiment. I am not a proponent of a religion, or any specific of spirituality. But I know there is a growing community of seekers who are turning almost exclusively to modern technology for answers.

We live in fascinating times.

Phase locking is not energy. It is something which occurs in physical processes. — wonderer1

That's not entirely true. Brainwaves are energy, and hearts produce electrical atmospheres that others can detect.

...do you have any links to support these claims? — flannel jesus

This is a recent example of what I was referring to regarding the synchronization of heart beats and brainwaves among audience members of the same musical experience.

The US forefathers risked everything for democracy and obviously, life is about more than matter. — Athena

100%. The entirety of what you have said here is important.

If the stories of the US forefathers are true, they lived exceptionally vivid and important lives. If the stories are true, they were masters and practitioners of a sacred science.

If the stories about the US founding fathers (and mothers) are true, then I have only caught fleeting glimpses, despite my best efforts, of what they knew to be true. If the stories are true, those individuals are true Saints.

Truly Blessed, those people and us; regardless. I still hope the stories are true. I truly do.

I appreciate the love. That was a nice surprise.

I don't think that you're participating in this conversation with good intentions. So I'm done. If you want to do your own research, feel free.

Which energies do you believe are known by science but materialists all reject? — flannel jesus

In a previous portion of this thread, the energy was referred to as "Kundalini" from ancient Hindu traditions. Which is most certainly known of by science. But would be rejected as "woo woo" by most materialists.

Are those forms of energy something physicists know about and study? — flannel jesus

Yes, these energies are known of by science. In terms of whether physicists study them, that depends on the individual scientist.

I revised my comment, and made the larger point that the majority of humanity does support the existence of Kundalini energy. It is not "woo woo", not in the least. "It" is a philosophical powerhouse.

The amount, and quality of wisdom that can be sussed out from Hindu traditions is mind boggling. And is, in my opinion, more important and relevant to this conversation than one might think.

Such as? :chin: — 180 Proof

Have you ever heard of a story titled, "The Celestine Prophecy"?

Most people regard the novel (and associated movie) as being metaphorical. But I think that James Redfield was onto something more important than an abstraction.

Here is a sample:



In other words, "Most strict materialists do not support the existence of Kundalini energy, or awakenings."

I would go so far as to say that the super majority of humanity does.

That is what Thomas Jefferson, and Cicero before him, meant when they spoke of the pursuit of happiness.

Before we focused education on the advancement of technology for military and Industrial purposes, we had education for conceptualizing, and being overly materialistic was deemed inferior. Learning a technology is for the working class, not the ruling class.

Concepts are not matter and yet they can be very powerful. Some concepts are very spiritual in nature and this can improve our health. Clearly, there is more to reality than matter. — Athena

Thomas Jefferson is a favorite American hero of mine. His time on the planet was a special period of human history. So it's interesting that you would mention his definition of pursuing happiness in relationship to the non-material.

In terms of a more robust historical type of education, I'm aware that medieval universities taught something known as the "quadrivium". Which was the effort to create well-rounded and balanced thinkers by focusing on arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music; cosmic languages. Today, as you point out, we are limited in our learning; at least when compared to the past.

So it is indeed the responsibility of the individual to seek out knowledge and wisdom, in order to find this sacred middle space.

Energy is, believe it or not, considered part of the material world. Materialists believe in physics. Physics is all about how matter is moved around and changed by energy. So saying these things can't be accounted for in materialism, and then saying "that's because it requires energy to happen", seems to be a misunderstanding of materialism.

Of course materialists believe in energy! How else could matter move and change momentum!? — flannel jesus

Before we go any further, I think it is important for you to define how you understand "energy" and "materialism". There are obviously forms of energy that strict materialists don't embrace.

Really? Why not? — flannel jesus

Great question. Because that's not what the measurements indicate. Good science shows that these phenomena are part of the material world, but energetic in nature; immaterial.

What's really exciting about all of this, is that the immaterial aspects of this world are present, just waiting to be rediscovered. That is what entices me, as an individual.

For example, when two (or more) people meet, their heart rhythms and brainwaves entrain with each other. These are energetic experiences that cannot be accounted for simply by assuming everything is materialistic.

Or remote viewing. That's another parapsychological phenomena that transpersonal and nonlocal.

All the sources of knowledge we have to choose from make living a wonderful thing. It appears you want to enjoy it all as I do. — Athena

Yes. Absolutely. In my mind there is little reason to exclude the thinking, intuition and conclusions of others outright; especially if the work being done is about balance and hybridizing extremes. Being able to challenge myself with diverse sources of knowledge does indeed make living a wondrous thing. This is a hallmark of a good life, in my observations.

How can "a beyond" the here and now provide "something better" to us within the here and now?

As a non-"materialist", what is it (ontically? epistemically?) about the material that you oppose?

What do you mean by "reality"? — 180 Proof

I agree with you (emphatically) in questioning whether "a beyond" can provide anything of value for the here and now. That sort of statement is at the core of my conclusions about reality.

What I oppose about materialism is that it is exclusively the domain of what is real; of reality. There are obviously other aspects of our existence that transcend the physical. But none of which are unscientific.

By "reality" I mean that which we encounter and can verify or measure.

A great story that nicely illustrates this all is "The Celestine Prophecy".

I don’t think it is reasonable because it involves the same activity: holding out for something better than the world. Theism is idealism run amok. It’s an exercise in slandering or dismissing the world, and holding oneself (one’s ideas, consciousness, mind) over and above it.

The problem with seeking the middle and not leaning one way or the other is that you never get to help decide where the center is. — NOS4A2

I can see what you're saying; that I might be playing the same game as theism, by looking to "a beyond" for something better. And that it is difficult to know where the middle truly is, without taking one side or the other. These are good points.

In my observations, the paranormal and metaphysical are part of this materialist world. There is no need for overlap of distinct realms or faith in anything to validate/explain such a reality. It is rather the state of science, measurement and a desire to earnestly look that prevents our species from legitimizing the existence of what is presently designated as "woo woo".

I'm not one to use Quantum Physics as a means to explain spiritual principles. Instead, I rely heavily on the work of pioneers such as Jeffrey Mishlove in the field of Parapsychology, to help explore these phenomena. As well as the words and wisdom of different religions, found throughout human history.

I conclude that by trusting my own experiences, studying the extremes of this spectrum and remaining mindful, that it seems possible to deduct where the middle is, or somewhere nearby. And to live in the now moment without a desire for inter-dimensional transcendence. My perspective isn't to escape an earthly life for a heaven or hell; it is to enrich my life in the domains that I already exist within.

You might enjoy The Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra. — Athena

Thank you for the recommendation. I have added it to my list of books to consider buying in the near-future. I am a big fan of literature that seeks to fuse seemingly incompatible paradigms, into a new coherent understanding of the universe.

Clarify what you mean by "reasonable" in this context. Thanks. — 180 Proof

In this context, the word "reasonable" means "sound" or "obvious".

More no, than yes. We certainly dream or hallucinate our realities to some extent. But freewill is real. So the ability to create change (anywhere, at will) is ultimately a matter of one's karma, awareness, discipline, desire and ability to "take the leap".

Anything is possible, and you're both The Architect and Neo from The Matrix trilogy.

We're inside of overlapping quasi-subliminal lucid dreams. Both collectively and individually.

I completely agree with you. The word "supernatural" is vacuous. And misleading. But it is how the unfamiliar is labeled. So it is a useful label to use here, I think.

The truth must always be the goal... — chiknsld

I genuinely agree with you. The truth is the most important objective here, or anywhere in life really.

...rather than games of rhetoric, though it is nice to have fun. — chiknsld

But it is important to appreciate that "the truth" is a matter of results. Ideally beheld with fun embedded within.

If good code is wisdom and artificial intelligence is a shortcut, then your claim would make some sense. Trouble is, I'm not convinced that good code is wisdom (or is comparable to wisdom). Neither would I want to call wisdom "what works, what is effective." Usually when we talk about wisdom we are talking about something more than that, and that something is not particularly susceptible to shortcuts. Maybe another way to say, "Beware of unearned wisdom," is, "Don't make the mistake of confusing that bumper sticker with wisdom." "Do not believe that you are wise because you have read lots of bumper stickers, or because you spend a good deal of time on Facebook." — Leontiskos

You make good points here. And I agree with another commenter that I should have defined wisdom at the beginning of this thread. With that said, my core assertion here is that sudden enlightenment is possible, even probable, for anyone who seeks it. But there are prisons and firewalls constructed by man to prevent this artificially scarce resource (true wisdom) from being shared.

I do however, disagree that simple expressions cannot hold wisdom, such as bumper stickers. It is my observation that such things are more often doorways to exponential growth. And while a bumper sticker may not be the truth or wisdom itself, their significance is best not to be underplayed.

About protecting something, you made me remember that both in religions and in ancient philosophy we find an interest to keep certain knowledge secret. — Angelo Cannata

This is something I'm familiar with, yes. Occult secrets are kept as such, as you refer to, for many different reasons. Some of those justifications include the protection of said information and tools. As well as maintaining powerful agendas.

In my studies, I've even read that the Great Mysteries have a life force of their own, and are capable of revealing "itself"/"themselves" to the correct initiates, at the appropriate time. One of the common reasons given for this is keeping powerful gnosis away from the unprepared.

But, in my opinion, this perspective doesn't work for the betterment of mankind. It keeps a few priests in charge of truth. When every human is capable of receiving and digesting "major wisdoms", from the moment they choose to do so.

I certainly hope the spirit of the shaman is strong somewhere in the world. It is a tree and forest that has been cut down. — 0 thru 9

I've seen the shamanic spirit take flight again in our modern times. But only in pockets of the world at the same moment. In other words, those individuals who are interested in shamanism, often need to travel substantial distances before they find a similar person.

That's an interesting question. In programming an unapplied value is generally considered wasteful and ultimately ignored.

In computer programming, the word "logic" is a reference to the,

...set of rules, algorithms, and conditions that determine the behavior of a program. It's the part of the code that makes decisions, performs calculations, and controls the flow of data.

While there are industry-wide standards for how programs (and any related logic) should be structured, Developers are able to build anything they want, anything they can imagine. And as long as their work meets requirements, such a thing/process is an example of software.

Based on these observations and similar experiences, I have come to conclude that "logic" is primarily "applied values".

To embed a YouTube video, I click on the camera icon at the top of the text area, when creating a new thread or writing a response.

Thank you for the reference. I checked out the track, and love it. For those who are curious, here is an embed of the media being referred to:



I can definitely see how this example of trance music could help bring about (inspire) a state of "oneness" when dancing with hundreds of other ravers. That is exactly what the modern shamanistic urge looks like.

My apologies for the delay in responding to your question.

I think the best example of shamanistic behaviors and people in today's world, is the global "techno rave scene", that originally came out of London in the early 90's. These folks gather(ed) specifically for entering states of group trance, sometimes called "oneness". With the DJ acting as a sort of shaman, for the night.

This "fundamental element of one-ness" is actually really simple. It's the fundamental fact that everything arises from a single origin, the Big Bang. The Big Bang created everything that exists in the universe, and everything (down to the cellular level) is made up of the same base components. Therefore, even though you are a small individual and the earth is a big planet, you and the earth are both made out of the same basic building blocks. In reality, you and the earth are made of the same stuff, and you are really one with the universe at a fundamental level.