Lol 'civil war'. As long as Trump doesn't rock the corporate boat too much and liberalism remains the limit of Harry Potter sytle 'resistance', America will simply openly become the plutocratic dreamworld/sewer it already is without even the sheen of aspiring otherwise. The American fantasists of "civil resistance" have been coopted and conscripted by the powers they fantasized about "resisting". Americans will roll over to their new fascist sponsors albeit with alot of soul-searching columns in the NYT wondering 'how did it come to this?' - right next to the Prime Day ad prominantly displayed below it.

Those calling for a Civil War are spoiled children. No one is enslaved, starving, or lacking of a future because of an oppressive tyrannical government. Its petty differences. None of those advocating for Civil war understand the death, the disease, the loss of electricity, water, services, comforts, and economic crash such a thing would entail. Not to mention opening us up to enemy infiltration from abroad.

No, we should not have a civil war. It is a dream of the brain-addled and foolishly ignorant.

The analysis by Barbara F Walter, a political science professor at the University of California at San Diego who sits on the Political Instability Task Force, is contained in a book due out next year and first reported by the Washington Post.

At the same time, three retired generals wrote in the Post that they were “increasingly concerned about the aftermath of the 2024 presidential election and the potential for lethal chaos inside our military”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/20/us-closer-to-civil-war-new-book-barbara-walter-trump-capitol-attack

“The CIA actually has a taskforce designed to try to predict where and when political instability and conflict is likely to break out around the world. It’s just not legally allowed to look at the US. That means we are blind to the risk factors that are rapidly emerging here.”

Millions of fellow would-be insurrectionists will be there, too, Nieznany says, "a ticking time-bomb" targeting the Capitol. "There are lots of fully armed people wondering what's happening to this country," he says. "Are we going to let Biden keep destroying it? Or do we need to get rid of him? We're only going to take so much before we fight back." The 2024 election, he adds, may well be the trigger.

Nieznany is no loner. His political comments on the social-media site Quora received 44,000 views in the first two weeks of November and more than 4 million overall. He is one of many rank-and-file Republicans who own guns and in recent months have talked openly of the need to take down—by force if necessary—a federal government they see as illegitimate, overreaching and corrosive to American freedom....

America's massive and mostly Republican gun-rights movement dovetails with a growing belief among many Republicans that the federal government is an illegitimate tyranny that must be overthrown by any means necessary. That combustible formula raises the threat of armed, large-scale attacks around the 2024 presidential election—attacks that could make the January 6 insurrection look like a toothless stunt by comparison. "The idea that people would take up arms against an American election has gone from completely farfetched to something we have to start planning for and preparing for," says University of California, Los Angeles law professor Adam Winkler, an expert on gun policy and constitutional law.


ttps://www.newsweek.com/2021/12/31/millions-angry-armed-americans-stand-ready-seize-power-if-trump-loses-2024-1660953.html?amp=1

Should we have a civil war? — ZzzoneiroCosm

Yes, we should have a civil [*] war and not just in the US but in every country on earth and on other planets as well.

[*] Civil (meaning): adequate in courtesy and politeness.

Ha, plunge the muskets full with flowers.

A fascist dream of bible Trumpers and the rest of the dumbed-down population, read Republicans.

YOU IN MISSISSIPPI NOW BOY!!!!

THE END OF THE EMPIRE?

A fascist dream of bible Trumpers and the rest of the dumbed-down population, read Republicans.

YOU IN MISSISSIPPI NOW BOY!!!!

THE END OF THE EMPIRE? — boagie

Nicely put, but I see the empire getting bigger and bigger and dumber and dumber. They have Facebook and now Meta now and they can make us as dumb as they want to. The average mind is powerless vis-a-vis Facebook's predatory algorithms. It would be shitty to have Mississippi move to me.

Did you know that in 2018 about 20,000 people lost their lives in the Syrian civil war and that roughly the same numner of people died by homicide in the US in 2021? Civil war? Yes, there's a civil war ongoing in the US.

Ha, plunge the muskets full with flowers. — ZzzoneiroCosm

:up:

Why would anyone listen to a US military general who has served in the last 30 years

Most Americans buy into American exceptionalism, meaning we are the good guys, the problem with that is, that the world knows differently. It's been a hard lesson, the American empire has not been a kind master, supporting dictatorships and death squads in Latin America and around the world a nasty piece of work. It can be compared to a crime family on a global scale, but like the Nazis, they have overstretched even their resources. So to the rest of the world, if America self-destructs from within, the world will breathe a sigh of relief. Perhaps this is inevitable, but I fear horrific in fact.

If "the only war is the class war" then we already have a civil war in progress, It is of long duration but quiet. The very wealthy and the very powerful (all in the same club) have accumulated their power through stealth, legislation, practice, and acquiescence. The working class is their victim here, even if working class citizens are foolish enough to serve as foot soldiers in an up-rising, insurrection, coup, or civil war.

There is a good sized pool of fools in America: the anti-science; anti-vax, anti-media, anti-government, anti-intellectual, patriotic, free-enterprise, bible-wielding, conspiracy theory consumers, etc. Many of these people have already talked themselves into a corner where an admission that their world-view is a deeply flawed is not going to be at all easy.

Someone will come along who can generate a standing wave of hysteria, and it will e hell on wheels for a while.

Bitter Crank,

I sometimes think that the root of this dumbing down and accepting theories without evidence is the natural outgrowth of the religiousity of America. Accepting the absurd and when practiced enough then spreading out to other areas. I got that directly from the mouth of the talking snake.

From the OP's Washington Post article:

The potential for a total breakdown of the chain of command along partisan lines — from the top of the chain to squad level — is significant should another insurrection occur. The idea of rogue units organizing among themselves to support the “rightful” commander in chief cannot be dismissed.

I think this is the actual problem: the politization of all branches of the government. And that every issue out there will be made a partisan issue, basically part of "the culture war". Departments that ought to be non-political are actively drawn into being partisan players.

I think this first happened with the FBI. The way how the organization was dragged from being supporter of one side to another and how the former director tried and failed to keep non-partisan. The end result is that people's faith in the government will erode even more. Now it's happening to the army.

I'm not worried about a civil war in the conventional meaning. More apt possibility is a "time of troubles", a confusing time when the country will look more like Mexico.

Did you know that in 2018 about 20,000 people lost their lives in the Syrian civil war and that roughly the same numner of people died by homicide in the US in 2021? Civil war? Yes, there's a civil war ongoing in the US. — Agent Smith

Better to look south of your border. It's a better example. There the country isn't in literal civil war... at least in the capital and many parts are tranquil. Yet a total of 350,000-400,000 have died from organized crime homicides 2006–2021. Yes, that's a lower body count than the Syrian Civil War, which has killed 400 000 - 600 000 people.

Better to look south of your border. It's a better example. There the country isn't in literal civil war... at least in the capital and many parts are tranquil. Yet a total of 350,000-400,000 have died from organized crime homicides 2006–2021. Yes, that's a lower body count than the Syrian Civil War, which has killed 400 000 - 600 000 people. — ssu

I get it wrong sometimes. :blush:

Folks in the know are predicting a civil war in the US in 2024 — ZzzoneiroCosm

Another example of the irresponsible few happy to destroy society for their momentary intellectual amusement.

The article is a trifle piece of deep-state dinner-theater, as are the others. But the generals finally get to the meat of the matter when they suggest odious state and military tactics to silence dissent and mutiny. It’s no good when the military meddles in politics.

At the same time, three retired generals wrote in the Post that they were “increasingly concerned about the aftermath of the 2024 presidential election and the potential for lethal chaos inside our military”. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Sounds like Senator Palpatine creating fear to use as a reason to seize more power and to become Emperor.

BLM and the Good 'Ol Boys should just agree on a time and place in some dark alley and have at it and leave the rest of us alone.

Well, the Canadian army doesn't have to publicly state that it acknowledges the election results when there is an election. And Canadian politicians aren't calling your generals to ask them what they think of other politicians and then leaking the tapes into public.

But the generals finally get to the meat of the matter when they suggest odious state and military tactics to silence dissent and mutiny. — NOS4A2

Yeah.

That's called doing their job.

Like starting from the oath they take:

I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

So why not be ready for anything that might happen? They're ready for zombie apocalypse, so why not go for other scenarios as well? Doesn't mean they will happen...just like CONOP 8888 is surely hypothetical.

BLM and the Good 'Ol Boys should just agree on a time and place in some dark alley and have at it and leave the rest of us alone. — Harry Hindu

That's what people thought in Weimar Germany, actually. Have the NSAPD brownshirts fight the Rotfrontkämpferbund of the Communist party, so they will everybody else alone. Didn't go that way.

In Canada you cannot vote for the leader of the country and the military pledge allegiance to the Queen of England. Yeah, it’s real great. At least In Finland your leader gets to go clubbing.

That's called doing their job.

They were retired.

They were retired. — NOS4A2

Of course. Only retired officers open their mouth ...and for a reason. Basically it's the Commander of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that speaks on behalf of the armed forces in this kind of issues. And he has had to make points that usually one doesn't make. Like mentioning that the armed forces is there to defend the constitution and doesn't pledge allegiance to any person (like you do).

At least In Finland your leader gets to go clubbing. — NOS4A2

Hey, if you're a 36-year old mom and your 4-year old daughter is with the grandparents at another city for the weekend, you go with your husband to parrrty!!!

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Of course. Only retired officers open their mouth ...and for a reason. Basically it's the Commander of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that speaks on behalf of the armed forces in this kind of issues. And he has had to make points that usually one doesn't make. Like mentioning that the armed forces is there to defend the constitution and doesn't pledge allegiance to any person (like you do).

The retired Obama and Clinton-supporting generals weave media articles with their own fears in order to knit an anti-Trump narrative, which will surely become another self-fulfilling prophesy, like the Russia hoax and the insurrection hoax. There is no military involved here. It’s politics, and they’re trying to convince congress to punish their political opponents.

Hey, if you're a 36-year old mom and your 4-year old daughter is with the grandparents at another city for the weekend, you go with your husband to parrrty!!!

Not if you’re leading a country and should be avoiding contact with others, as your own government recommends.

Not if you’re leading a country and should be avoiding contact with others, as your own government recommends. — NOS4A2

Actually, the government then didn't recommend avoiding contacts. We had just "opened up" and for those a) that have two vaccination shots and b) aren't in the group who have medical issues or c) are not old, partying was accepted. The government is just now (today) implementing (again) tough new measures.

(Nope, the outcry was that the foreign minister who she had met got a corona-positive result, yet she didn't have her phone with her where she got the text message about it (allegedly). Oooh, the horror!!! At least the opposition didn't cry for her removal from office, just had a great time seeing the prime minister in a mess of her own making.

insurrection hoax — NOS4A2

the insurrection hoax — NOS4A2

In what sense were the events of January 6th a hoax?

There was no insurrection.

There was no insurrection. — NOS4A2

If not "insurrection," what do you call the events of January 6th?

At worst, a riot.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

At worst, a riot. — NOS4A2

And at best?

“Mostly peaceful protest”.

"Mostly peaceful protest”. — NOS4A2

Bad faith reply.

The retired Obama and Clinton-supporting generals weave media articles with their own fears in order to knit an anti-Trump narrative, which will surely become another self-fulfilling prophesy, like the Russia hoax and the insurrection hoax. — NOS4A2

Since we're on a board where we do a little more thinking than others, I want you to consider this. The person with insight never worries about the other party. Your party will shower you with reasons to dislike the other party, and will always fight them. The insightful person worries about their OWN party. No one on the other side is going to get a one up on you. But your own leaders will always attempt to get a one up on you to stay in power.

Anyone who defends their own party from clear evil needs to take a re-examination of their self. Not for others, but for their own sake. A party that can lie to you that easily for power, will see you as a convenient tool to be used. This is not anything I say from an armchair either, but something I practice as well. I'm more interested in the lies the party I support tells me, then the party I don't. I would assume your own party is lying to you in regards to January 6th, and look for information that supports that. Only after you do that, then you should make a judgement.

You'll never be fooled by the other party. Don't be the one fooled by your own.

The war won't happen.
Previous wars broke out because there were competing forms of production.
The only forms of production in the U.S. are dominated by corporate entities. The hold outs are various forms of finding opportunity despite that; Not a countervailing movement but more like a bunker. It is not a sustainable model.

I’m a registered independent. This party has yet to deceive me. If there is evidence of any insurrection I’ll be sure to doff my hat.

Are you suggesting you have no way to figure it out by yourself?

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Jan 6 was a minor kerfuffle but because liberals are literally incapable of systemic analysis and like to frame things Marvel Movie Events and the Goodies and the Baddies duke it out and the Goodies win it is somehow very very consequential. It's Hasbro politics: My First Politics Playtime Set™.

Doesn't help that some powerful people felt threatened and liberals cannot fathom the jaw-dropping idea that people in power can be threatened or made to feel so. A bunch of Plutocrat-enabling grifters felt uneasy for a bit - the horror. The whole thing was a carnival for alt-right cosplayers, in which some class traitors were killed or injured. The only tragedy is that some working people had to be killed so that those in power could continue exactly as they have been.

A bunch of Plutocrat-enabling grifters felt uneasy for a bit - the horror. — StreetlightX

They may be scumbags one and all — that’s not the issue. They were not targeted as scumbags but as elected representatives carrying out their constitutional duty. It’s not the attack on Pence that bothers us — not mainly, I mean, he’s a dangerous Christian dominionist, but also a human being who ought not be pummeled to death by a mob — it was the attack on the rule of law itself that was unsettling. That bothers us whether it’s done by a mob or by current and former government officials ignoring Congressional subpoenas and court orders, or by Reagan funding a secret foreign policy through arms sales. The rule of law itself is not up for negotiation, so we liberals believe.

Jan 6 was a minor kerfuffle but because liberals are literally incapable of systemic analysis — StreetlightX

This has nothing to do with liberals. Any systematic analysis should reveal that. People busted windows, beat up police officers, destroyed and took things like podium's out of the house, and all with the aim to stop the election from being certified. Thank goodness people in congress got out. Can you imagine what would have happened if they had been caught? Can you imagine if someone had brought bombs, or a foreign spy had tagged along and found this to be his opportunity?

Conservative, liberal, or independent, it should be condemned by everyone.

Oh I know. Liberals treat politics like bureaucrats: as long as rules are not broken, anything goes. Even fascism. Which is why liberals will side with fascists everytime against left pressure.

People busted windows, beat up police officers, destroyed and took things like podium's out of the house, and all with the aim to stop the election from being certified. — Philosophim

Oh no they damaged property and hurt some class traitors for a process which is largely meaningless how sad :( It's insane how glassy eyed people get for rituals and symbols of power, even if that power has presided over mass misery.

as long as rules are not broken, anything goes. Even fascism. — StreetlightX

Well, no, it’s just that there’s no point in striving for just laws in a lawless nation. Rule of law alone is certainly not enough, but it’s a requirement — so we believe. We also tend to support civil disobedience and jury nullification when we have failed to make the law just. But we are trying to build something better than the war of all against all. So are you, aren’t you? You think the state is no solution, and you may be right — I think you’re wrong, but I don’t consider you my enemy. The mob that attempted to stop the peaceful transfer of power are my enemy and yours as well, because they believe power should only and forever be in the hands of ‘the right sort of people’.

Oh no they damaged property and hurt some pigs for a process which is meaningless how sad :( — StreetlightX

Maybe you don't understand that those pigs were men with families doing their job to protect the people in the capitol.

Here's testimony from Michael Fannon, one of the police officers that was beaten during the riot.

"Fanon delivered emotional opening remarks criticizing those who downplayed the assault in the weeks since January 6.

“What makes the struggle more difficult and more painful is knowing so many of my fellow citizens, including so many people I risked my life to defend, downplaying or outright denying what happened,” he told the nine lawmakers. face. “I feel like I went to hell and came back to protect them and the people in this room, but many now tell me that hell doesn’t exist – or that hell wasn’t actually that bad.”

Footage from Fanon’s body camera was shown during the hearing, showing him and other officers trying to fend off the rioters as they attempted to storm the Capitol, and Fanon carried inside by fellow officers after he was injured.

In the footage, an officer holding a fanon shouts, “We need a paramedic. We need EMTs now!” While another implored him to “stay there, my friend.”

In May, Fanon wrote a letter describing the emotional toll of the January 6 attack, telling CBS News last month that he had been “tortured,” dragged into a crowd, shocked and beaten by a mob of former President Donald Trump’s supporters. He told the House Select Committee on Tuesday that he lost consciousness during the Capitol attack and suffered a mild heart attack and brain injury. "
-https://tittlepress.com/latest/1012027/

There was nothing innocent, or light about that. If these men had not held off the rioters until congress was able to evacuate, who knows what else might have happened. Its like saying a person who went into your house with a machete, stole some of your stuff and left isn't a big deal because you weren't home and he didn't have the opportunity to kill you.

e also tend to support civil disobedience and jury nullification when we have failed to make the law just. But we are trying to build something better than the war of all against all. — Srap Tasmaner

Nah, liberals have proven time and time again that these are nothing more than words. It's why they cannot but blather on about Jan 6 and say nothing - literally nothing - about capitalism. They want comfort, not justice. The only interesting thing about Jan 6 is it's aftermath - the fact that the pollies have used it to milk sympathy from a population it is been systematically immiserating for decades, who - as this thread amply demonstrates - are now more rather than less apt to brownnose than ever.

I couldn't care less. What happened to some pig somewhere is not a systemic problem. Even Gobbels had a family. American police are a public health hazard, and as they are so fond of reminding people, they put themselves in the front line. It's a job. If they don't like it they should get another. Instead, they got more funding.

I couldn't care less. What happened to some pig somewhere is not a systemic problem. — StreetlightX

I am incredibly disappointed and disheartened to hear this. I feel you have made people into "the other". This is what allows racism, sexism, and hate to foster in people's hearts. You should actively seek out an opportunity to talk with a police officer, or interact with some liberals in your community. They are not "some pigs". They are people in your community just trying to make a living like you do.

I feel you have made people into "the other". — Philosophim

People who systematically extra-judicially murder citizens on a regular basis are an "other".

Never seen so many people driven into collective hysteria on the basis of a glorified cosplay convention gone awry.

People who systematically extra-judicially murder citizens on a regular basis are an "other". — StreetlightX

You've been on these boards for a long time StreetlightX. A major goal of philosophy is to carefully examine our own presumptions and prejudices about the world, and see if they hold up in the light of rationality.

Can you say your words do? Were the defenders at the capitol riot who got beaten, feared for their life, and put into the hospital extra-judicially murdering citizens on a regular basis? Are they really an "other", or are they human beings like you and me?

Never seen so many people driven into collective hysteria on the basis of a glorified cosplay convention gone awry. — StreetlightX

One of the prides of America is that we have peaceful transitions of power. You vote your guy, they vote their guy, and whoever wins at the end of the day, wins. This was an attack on that pride. Don't you think some people have a right to be offended and outraged?

People who didn't like losing the vote, decided to act like spoiled punks. People got hurt. A few died. Was it a coordinated take over with law rockets, bombs, and tanks? No. But it was an attack on the idea that we can have a peaceful transfer of power. That we can work out our differences through discussion, reason, and voting.

As a person who enjoys philosophy, don't you find that offensive? Isn't that the antithesis to free thought, speech, and handling matters without violence? Are you being rational, or are you rationalizing your own emotions and biases?

As a person who enjoys philosophy, don't you find that offensive? — Philosophim

I don't find it offensive because I enjoy philosophy. One of the things a bit of analysis teaches you is not to get sucked in by spectacle and glitz. What is the point of a peaceful transition of power when the power in question is murderous? What is the point of voting when representatives represent literally no one but the rich? That's my issue with liberals: they care about 'ideas', and not one bit about reality. It is literal idealism. You can't eat pride. You can't pay your rent with pride. Maybe the 'defenders' of the capitol don't personally murder people extra-judicially on a regular basis. But they sure as hell looked at an institution that does and said, 'yep, I would like to be a part of that'.

And if one's politics is driven by how emotional one feeling at any point in time, maybe consider that all your opinions are totally invalid for all time until the heat death of the universe.

There will never be a civil war in America. People are way too addicted to their phones to go to battle.

I joined this forum mainly because I got tired of sitting around doing nothing while everyone around me was staring at their screens.

That's my issue with liberals: they care about 'ideas', and not one bit about reality. — StreetlightX

Both liberal and conservative Americans hold that a peaceful transfer of power is something we aspire towards. You are using "the liberals" as some boogeyman. Maybe you don't realize it, but its clouding your judgement and causing you to make logical fallacies left and right.

Who is getting murdered on election day? None of those rioters was concerned about needing to eat or pay their bills because of an election. America is not a regime that tortures its citizens, or where people disappear in the night for having opinions the government doesn't like. I think it way outside of anything reasonable to think that.

Streetlight, before you cast that others are being emotional, maybe examine yourself first. Its late on my end, so lets sleep on it. Have a good night.

Both liberal and conservative Americans hold that a peaceful transfer of power is something we aspire towards. — Philosophim

This doesn't address a thing I said. And why torture citizens when you can simply keep them on the edge of starvation, without healthcare, or simply bound to work for poverty wages? And sure, if it doesn't torture its citizens - debateable - it sure does torture non-citizens, while vigorously supporting other nations that do torture their citizens, while regularly destroying democracies overseas. And that's to say nothing of the all out persecution of journalists who expose its wanton war crimes. And again, who needs to shut down journalists when your media environment is simply owned by corporations who would never hire or platform subversive journalists in the first place? And who could forget unmarked vehicles dragging people away as they protested Trump? Or your cops who do, in fact, murder people for crimes like 'sleeping in their bed'.

But nah, definitely spill infinte energy into a rowdy carnival that threatened some rich power-hungry ghouls with loud noises from the hoi-polloi.

It's mad that people fantasize about a coming civil war, without recognizing the class war that is widespread and pervasive at every point in time, already playing out minute-to-minute. The privilege reeks.

If not "insurrection," what do you call the events of January 6th? — ZzzoneiroCosm

At worst, a riot. — NOS4A2

A sloppy self-defeating chaotic riot that the inept former President hoped somehow would get him turn obvious election result somehow to something else. An extremely Trumpian attempt (meaning a poor, clueless attempt) on a self coup. An organized attempt? Hardly organized...

(Which btw would have could have worked if Trump had a ruthless drive and leadership qualities. There was the "strategic surprise" to do something so outrageous. Even the crowds to celebrate such attack on democracy.)

This was picked up even in our local newspapers here:

Barbara F. Walter, a political science professor at the University of California at San Diego, serves on a CIA advisory panel called the Political Instability Task Force that monitors countries around the world and predicts which of them are most at risk of deteriorating into violence. By law, the task force can’t assess what’s happening within the United States, but Walter, a longtime friend who has spent her career studying conflicts in Syria, Lebanon, Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Rwanda, Angola, Nicaragua and elsewhere, applied the predictive techniques herself to this country.

Her bottom line: “We are closer to civil war than any of us would like to believe.” She lays out the argument in detail in her must-read book, “How Civil Wars Start,” out in January. “No one wants to believe that their beloved democracy is in decline, or headed toward war,” she writes. But, “if you were an analyst in a foreign country looking at events in America — the same way you’d look at events in Ukraine or the Ivory Coast or Venezuela — you would go down a checklist, assessing each of the conditions that make civil war likely. And what you would find is that the United States, a democracy founded more than two centuries ago, has entered very dangerous territory.”

The interesting thing is how we report these issues. When it's a poor Third World country, we openly talk of civil war or insurgencies. When it's the First World, we don't. An example: in hindsight the British Army has openly acknowledged that it faced and fought an insurgency in Northern Ireland. Yet the very smart British understood how important it was never to utter those words... or have the media to refer it as an insurgency. It was only "The Troubles". And if someone dared to say that the UK was fighting an insurgency in the British Isles in the late 20th Century, many would immediately come to correct the phrasing about the issue.

And likely so it will be if everything goes to hell in a handbasket in the US...

A myth is usually an uncertain and unverifiable story about what happened. Unlike what happens with facts, myths allow a varied hermeneutic. The archaic Greek myths and the hermeneutics made of them by Sophocles and Euripides are different things. For this reason, unlike what happens with the facts, in the myth the development of a society is appreciated. They reflect us.
Anyone who reads the Daredevil comics will see the evolution of the female characters, very much in keeping with the changing times.
Stan Lee humanized superheroes. Ironman has to face the problem of alcohol. Spiderman has to face a bullying situation. Dr. Banner is a withdrawn and introverted person who carries the inferiority complex of most intelligent people (particularly scientists who work for the government). However, Stan Lee featured superheroes against villains. White against black. The Marvel Factory has lately reinterpreted the problem of power in a way that is reminiscent of Aristotle. They say that with all power comes great responsibility. For Aristotle, the difference between a just government and a corrupt one depends on the common good. Righteous rulers seek the common good, while corrupt rulers only think of using power for their own benefit. Most governments are corrupt, so ... I think Aristotle always considered power to be a negative and corrupting power. Power perverts those who possess it and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Good government is a rarity, as are those who use power wisely. Take a look at the NBA basketball players who end up begging after collecting millions of dollars during their sports careers. The Marvel mythology has been getting the message across in its own way. Everyone in power is going to undergo a transformation. Only a few manage to resist an intrinsic dynamic and that is why they are heroes. This reveals a conception of the human being as negative as the one described in Genesis. We are born with deficiencies and if we prosper, we acquire other deficiencies. Aristotle seems to have tried to solve the matter by means of the theory of the middle term. I think the message from the Marvel factory is much more pessimistic. You can only hope that heroes don't use their prosperity for evil, that's why they are heroes. This reveals a paradox, as the people they save are not good either, but potentially bad. Give the monkey a stick and it will kill another. On the other hand, a good person can stop being so, while it is difficult for a corrupt person to improve. Just take a look at the comics from a decade ago that sparked a Civil War between superheroes. I think Marvel mythology has never been so negative... and mythology only reflect us.

Right, “an attack on democracy”. A no more fatuous string of words can be uttered.

The only insurrection and coup attempts were the activities of the deep state and anti-Trump forces in both parties and in the media, who spent the majority of their time trying to stifle, discredit, and remove Trump from office during his presidency, the will of the people be damned. Right now they are actively attempting to prohibit him from running again. So much for democracy.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

in both parties and in the media, who spent the majority of their time trying to stifle, discredit, and remove Trump from office — NOS4A2

Oh, just LIKE WITH THE BILL CLINTON ADMINISTRATION! :grin:

They didn’t need to fabricate conspiracy theories to do it. All they had to do was get Clinton alone with an intern and give him a microphone.

It's interesting that all the bad things that happen are done by Republicans, — tim wood

Spoken like some who only gets information from sources that confirm their own cognitive biases. It's interesting that all the bad things that happen are done by demons and devils and all the good things are done by us angels. Give. Me. A. Break.

The whole thing was a carnival for alt-right cosplayers, — StreetlightX

:lol:

Riot, insurrection. Words aside, what exactly do you say happened on 6 January? — tim wood

Riots are what they called the violence in the summer of 2020 where public property was destroyed and innocent people were killed. Other called it peaceful protests. Some would call an insurrection a revolt against tyranny. So what happened on Jan. 6th and the summer of 2020? Two ignorant groups were manipulated by political elites into thinking that their lives and freedom were being threatened by another group in order to rile them up to get votes. The two political parties fear the growing number of independents and they are growing desperate in their need for votes without having to be detailed about their plans and defending their inconsistencies, which you have to do with independents, but not with their fundamentalist, close-minded party members who vote for them no matter what.

We all (at least the intelligent people) know that the elites in govt. use their power to keep power and enrich themselves at our expense. When Nancy Pelosi's trading portfolio is as performing as well as, if not out-performing, Warren Buffet's then there must be something fishy going on.

This has nothing to do with liberals. Any systematic analysis should reveal that. People busted windows, beat up police officers, destroyed and took things like podium's out of the house, and all with the aim to stop the election from being certified. Thank goodness people in congress got out. Can you imagine what would have happened if they had been caught? Can you imagine if someone had brought bombs, or a foreign spy had tagged along and found this to be his opportunity?

Conservative, liberal, or independent, it should be condemned by everyone. — Philosophim

The left has gotten carried away with taking their hyperbole literally and now has lost even further credibility. They are trying to use this riot as their best evidence of a right wing world gone crazy. Theat narrative serves only to reinforce their position and get ignored by the right.

What is an insurrection? That's when legislative bodies break away from the nation and artillery is fired upon a federal fort. That's a good description, If you want to know what civil war looks like, we have a great example to look at.

The insurrection the left speaks of never was. At no time was the US in jeopardy of a coup or overthrow. What happened is that Trump lost, but he didn't want to cede power, so he scoured the great land for someone to give him the power he lost, from Governors, to local elections officials, to Secretary of States, and most notably to the courts. Over and over and over he lost, until the final day arrived and there was going to be an official change of administrations. Even his loyal VP wouldn't play along, and so as a final desperate act by a desperate man, he summoned his most gullible, comprised of a ragtag group of misfits, and they rallied upon the Capital, some more malicious than others, but all generally inept. If that is what revolution looks like, I feel safe.

None of this excuses Trump. He's a piece of shit and has repeatedly spread his lie that he won the election he lost. The capital riot was an outgrowth of a terrible human being putting his own ego over the democracy he was supposed to represent and trying to ignore the citizens who rejected him.

It wasn't an insurrection. It's laughable to call it that. The left has figured out a way to overplay what should have been a hand that couldn't be overplayed.

It seems so obvious, at least to me, that the leaders of all these different political parties and their media counterparts main objective is to keep everyone fighting with each other. It would be nice if we didn’t keep letting that happen.

Just so we're all on the same page. :smile:

What is an insurrection? — Hanover

insurrection hoax — NOS4A2

noun: insurrection; plural noun: insurrections
a violent uprising against an authority or government.


https://www.google.com/search?q=insurrection&rlz=1C1RXQR_enUS982US982&oq=insurrection&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i433i512l2j0i512l7.1934j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Do you believe it was a violent uprising against the government?

Not completely laughable. People died. Mostly laughable.

But not a riot. They weren't just expressing themselves destructively. They were there to stop Congress from certifying electors. They were there, as they themselves said, to take back their government. That's not a riot.

The interesting part of the day to me is the couple hours of radio silence from Trump. I think he hoped, perhaps even believed, that people in uniform would stand with him, so he was waiting to see what the cops did. There were off-duty cops in the mob, after all. But then it became clear that those in uniform were not siding with Trump's mob, and tanks didn't roll in to support him, nothing like that, so he finally told everyone to go home. But I believe he was waiting to see what happened, and would have been perfectly happy to stay in power at gunpoint.

As it turns out, it was just violent LARPing, but it wasn't clear early on that's all it would be, and those involved had bigger ambitions.

Do you believe it was a violent uprising against the government? — NOS4A2

I do.

Were the riots outside of the Whitehouse in 2020 an insurrection, then?

They were not done to change who was in power.

Trump was in power on the 6th.

The riot was incited to keep him in power after that date.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

Were the riots outside of the Whitehouse in 2020 an insurrection, then? — NOS4A2

Maybe. Was it an attempt to halt a democratic process?

Was anyone charged and convicted of inciting a riot or insurrection?



Your definition says nothing about halting democratic processes, though, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Was it a "violent uprising against the government?"

In this case the government is sometimes considered democratic....

Why ask me?
The intentions of the proceedings at the time are pronounced clearly by those interested in the results.

It wasn't.

Why ask me?

You said the riot was incited to keep him in power. Surely you know if anyone has been charged with inciting the riot, and their intentions to keep him in power.

Why would my observation be based on what people have been charged with as a matter of law?

A group of people tried to hang on to power after having been voted out. If the situation is much different from that description, the situation needs to be seen in a different light.

But that light has not yet shined. Go ahead, enlighten me.

It wasn't — NOS4A2

OK. So in 2020 it wasn't an insurrection?

Surely you know if anyone has been charged with inciting the riot, and their intentions to keep him in power. — NOS4A2

Next let's prove the sun is shining.

It happened in plain daylight.



Your obfuscations are transparent. I can smell your smile.

The left has gotten carried away with taking their hyperbole literally and now has lost even further credibility. They are trying to use this riot as their best evidence of a right wing world gone crazy. — Hanover

Please, don't confuse the CNN-"left" for the left kthx.

Jan 6 is nice and spicy. Lots of spectacle. Good visuals. Fits nicely into a Harry Potter view of the world where baddies are isolatable and ridiclious. It's the perfect excuse to not say anything about the material conditions which gave rise to it. Apologists for capital - both liberals and conservatives - couldn't have organized a better energy-sink to talk about a concequentless nothingburger for months on end if they tried. That there wasn't a repeat of Jan 6 when Pelosi all but defended insider trading by congress shows that most of the hand-wringing over the incident is purely aesthetic.

The left has gotten carried away — Hanover

My BS propaganda radar goes off whenever I see, "The left" or "The right". Those are lazy labels filled with bias, and generally do not lead to good thoughts. I recall reading a study years ago that stated people think critically about their opposing party, identifying all of their negatives, but gloss over their own. Conclusion: Identifying with a "left" or a "right" makes you stupid.

There are people that tried to stop the certification of an election. Violence was made. I blame those people, no one else. I blame those who lie that nothing bad happened because they are worried that those individuals actions, will somehow rub off on them. That's cowardice. I respect people who speak up for what is right, even if someone might try to smear them for it.

You concern about who gets the blame beyond those involved is entirely misplaced. It causes you to lie, and make excuses for those who committed violence, and attempted to stop the peaceful transfer of power. Remove "the left" and "the right" from your brain, it is poison. If you excuse evil, because you are worried that punishing it will harm you, you are complicit.

There really is no rational debate over what happened. Its an open and shut case that people tried to overturn the election through violent means. It was foolish, stupid, traitorous, and should never be supported or excused. All decent people should be coming out to condemn it instead of being worried about the utter irrelevancy and pathetic priority of tribal politics.

They didn’t need to fabricate conspiracy theories to do it. — NOS4A2

Don't you remember Whitewater and Kenneth Starr, who was initially appointed to investigate the suicide of deputy White House counsel Vince Foster and the Whitewater real estate investments of Bill Clinton? That Starr that afterwards joined Trump's legal team. :snicker:

Yes, the selectivity of your memory is telling. But I guess it's a norm with deeply tribal Americans. But the truth is the mudslinging with conspiracy theories has been the norm for American politics for a long time.

That is, for which there is evidence. I realize in your fantasy land, you have no need of evidence, nor are troubled by lack of it. — tim wood

I'm certainly not saying the Dems are more corrupt. I'm saying that they are equally corrupt and need each other to maintain the status quo. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it. If it makes you sleep better to say I live in a fantasy land even though I can point to issues that I have switched sides on, like religion, based on the evidence, and you probably cant. Care to share just one idea that you've changed your mind on given the evidence? If not then who is the one living in a fantasy land?

Clinton, eh? I don’t understand the whataboutism but it’s not surprising given that you fell for and helped propel a conspiracy theory for a few years. Finnish meddling, I suppose. If there was an American civil war I already know which side you’d take.

Lol. Have to say that the Trump administration was the most transparent administration as various people paint the same exact picture you could see from just following the guy.

As I've stated again and again, just to watch through the Putin / Trump press conference and the abnormality of the Trump Presidence was all there to see.

But believe by all means the Republican mantra with religious fervor as you do.

The only thing abnormal about it was the preconceived notions, led as they were by the silliest of media blunders ever perpetrated. The surprising thing is even distant foreigners who pride themselves on being above American tribalism were so easily duped by the Clinton propaganda machine. I’m still trying to figure out how such a person may benefit from being the unwitting participant in Clintonian propaganda, but I can never reach any conclusion.

Why argue with someone who voted for Trump and whose "opinions" you can predict by simply watching whatever the Fox News hosts say?

That's the only real question. Because it's fun is the answer, I guess. But don't think for a second that you'll get anywhere.

I cannot tell if that’s the CNN or the cocaine speaking. At this point they’re one and the same.

But the situation in this case is not just one side tarring another side.

The proponents for overturning the election did that openly in the name of opposing a crime they said was being perpetrated. If I was convinced that such a crime had been perpetrated, I would not readily accept the results either.

But nobody has shown that such a crime has, in fact, been perpetrated. The courts have thrown out all suits claiming as much. The media still advancing the idea can only conjure the most ridiculous reasons why the crime is not visible to ordinary mortals.

By their own admission, there was a shadow campaign to alter state election laws and systems, securing hundreds of millions in public and private dark money to do so. They got social media companies to suppress “misinformation”, such as Hunter Biden’s escapades, which turned out to be true. They coordinated with the same activist groups who for that whole year destroyed many cities through the country. They convinced millions to vote by mail for the first time. All of this was intended to preserve election integrity from Trump’s withering criticism, which they absurdly labeled an “assault on democracy”. Instead of protecting the election, though, they worked behind the scenes to fundamentally alter it.

Given all this, I see no problem in crying foul and contesting the election, which Trump and his campaign did.

But none of those claims regarding voting fraud could be proven in the light of day. The power to expose such crimes was in the hands of those most interested in proving it. They failed to do it, even with an AG inclined to help.

The mail voting element has not been proven to show anything of significance by even the Fox people.

Crying foul is one thing. Engineering an alternate result is another. How legitimate could that alternate reality be if the grounds for it was not substantiated beyond mere suspicion?

The only insurrection and coup attempts were the activities of the deep state and anti-Trump forces in both parties and in the media, who spent the majority of their time trying to stifle, discredit, and remove Trump from office during his presidency, the will of the people be damned.

The will of the people, eh? I don't suppose you're referring to either the majority of Americans who thought the Russia investigation was fair and its findings accurate, or the majority of Americans who voted for Clinton in 2016?

Also, its funny that you object to using terms like "insurrection" or "coup" wrt the Jan 6 riots, but endorse them in the equally ridiculous context of lawful processes like the Mueller probe or either of Trump's impeachments. If drunk rednecks stealing furniture and holding Trump signs isn't a coup or insurrection, then the lawful activities of journalists or members of Congress certainly isn't either.