Where people stand politically is often a reflex action. How committed they are to the actual implications of their beliefs may be an entirely different matter. I know plenty of left-leaning people who might march on behalf of the homeless, yet if a homeless service tried to open a low-cost apartment building on their street, they could be even more vigorous in opposing it.

My point was if you look at the rudder of a progressive boat, it's compassion. We shouldn't just let people suffer when we can help, and the government is the best way to coordinate that care. — frank

Maybe it’s less about compassion then and more about the role of government in society?

But now that they're older, they're actually irritated by the complaints of young people. Maybe it's obvious why. — frank

Could it be that the complaints have changed and that identity politics is annoying to them?

All that is required for what I've said is that someone thinks it is true that everyone should not be intolerant. Whether this is a 'fact' is not very important. — Leontiskos

That's helpful.

But is it valid to say, "Humans generally try to reduce suffering, therefore it is true that everyone should try to reduce suffering?" — Leontiskos

I’m not sure. I’d say humans generally find suffering unpleasant and therefore try to avoid it. And because we’re social animals, we also often try to reduce suffering for members of our own tribe, community, or culture. I’m not convinced many of us care much about the welfare of strangers or the suffering of people we don’t like. Personally, I have a strong dislike of suffering and wouldn’t want even my enemies (not that I really have any) to suffer, but that’s just my own emotional preference. I suppose I’d like others to try to reduce suffering as well, but I have a mental block when it comes to calling it “true” that we should all reduce suffering. I’m not sure in what sense I can say it is true.

My point about "fruitful dialogue" has to do with reason-giving in moral contexts. So if someone thinks their moral utterances are true, require reasons, and can be rationally engaged, then the problem I've pointed out dissipates. But at the prevailing meta-ethical level this simply isn't true on a cultural level. — Leontiskos

:up:

When someone brings up tolerance there is usually an accusation at play. There is usually the premise, "One should not be intolerant." Now it surely does not make sense to say, "One should not be intolerant," while at the same time being undecided on whether there are moral "facts," no? And emotivism of whatever variety will be of no help unless one believes that emotions are sufficient grounds for binding moral norms. — Leontiskos

Thanks, I see what you’re saying, but it never occurred to me that moral positions require objective facts. This deserves its own thread. As a non-philosopher, my view has generally been that humans are social and cooperative: we seem to try to reduce suffering and promote well-being, and our moral views tend to reflect what supports those goals. Moral discussions are simply humans attempting to find the best ways to achieve this.

Conservatives are usually willing to let nature take care of social problems. They think that when we interfere with nature (due to an overload of compassion), we inevitably undermine a process that leads to social health and well-being. This process happens to be brutal, but conservatives are ok with that. This is because compassion isn't their driving value. — frank

Just thinking out loud. Isn't the way conservatism functions different across cultures and contexts? There are conservatives on the left, for example, old-school class warriors who dislike the identity politics of the current left. They hope to conserve the left of the early to mid 20th century. In Australia, political conservatives generally support community welfare programs, such as pensions, unemployment benefits and free healthcare, while the radical right (a small boutique group) might oppose such programs. Perhaps the majority of Australians actually favor a form of progressive politics, so conservatism here may resemble the left in countries with a more libertarian (?) ethos. I'm not sure many lefties I know are especially compassionate. How does one gauge that? I don’t always go by their politics. I go by their behaviors toward others in real life. I think a lot of the left take a kind of rights-based perspective, which is somewhat separate from compassion.

Secondly, the point originally being made about Crisp is a moral claim (hence the words "fear and resentment"), and yet the people who tend to make such claims also tend to deny moral realism, which logically takes all the sting out of their reproach. ...It's remarkable to me that on TPF moral realism is so thoroughly repelled that members regularly fail to provide any rational justification for prohibiting even the most grievous offenses, such as the slave trade, but on the other hand this has been par for the philosophical course for centuries. — Leontiskos

I’m don't know if there are moral facts or if morality is grounded in anything beyond emotional responses, perhaps emotivism is correct, of which, presumably, there are more and less defensible versions.

Interesting you see Crisp as making a moral claim. I didn’t think of it like this. I think the idea that people fear and resent 'the strange' is human nature. I know I do. I don’t consider this to be located in a specific moral framework, more a vague aesthetic/emotional one or one wherein we find ourselves unable to make sense of something. I also don't know if Crisp is right in his view. It seemed like an interesting position to raise in the context of the discussion, since it tackled tolerance differently.

"I am homosexual/trans/etc." is classified and understood as a "sin", — Moliere

I’ve often thought that sin and mental illness are connected for many people. The notion that one is going against nature/god.

I do too, tho I've also been disappointed by face-to-face interactions in real time as well. — Moliere

All interactions can disappoint. For me there are always distinct advantages to being face to face someone in real time. But perhaps not for everyone.

Sound to like you’ve thought a lot about these themes and have acquired wisdom.

Perhaps we here can attempt to create this "much better" conversation? — Moliere

I doubt it. I think we need face-to-face discussions in real time, not the anonymous often polemical world of forums. But who knows?

I don't like the romanticizing of mental illness. — Moliere

The issue for many people is that normal behaviours have previously been described as mental illness; homosexuality, even feminism. Of course, many religious folks might still agree. And now trans identities… even many progressives view this as mental illness. But let's not go there.

? As in, we need better public conversations about mental health and mental illness. — Moliere

Yes, but it depends upon what "much better' means. For instance, if a socialist says we need much better conversations about economics and money, then where do you think this will head? If we are not careful "much better" can mean "much closer to my biases". But I'm in favour of enhanced conversations on most subjects.

I agree that there's something to the notion that cultural desires for individualism run against the need for psychiatric help. It also doesn't help that in culture at large people talk about the mentally ill as if they ought have less rights than others. — Moliere

People also talk about mental illness as if it is romantic and needs to be defended as merely a kind alternative lifestyle that the evil mainstream can’t handle.

Does that defend it from the charges of anti-psychiatry? — Moliere

Well, it depends on the charges and claims made. I’m not interested in revisiting this fairly intractible debate, but I will say that if a particular psychiatrist takes the view that they are not infallible, that patient rights should be upheld, that medication is not compulsory, and that the patient should have a say in all treatment (which is how it works here for the most part), then I think we're mostly good. But no doubt there are people so hateful of psychiatry that nothing will ever excuse or redeem it. And there have been awful practices. Not to mention instances of people with a mental illness and absolutely no insight into their harmful behaviours towards self or others. The Foucauldian charge of social control, will always be popular. I feel this way about interior designers. :wink:

Pardon me if my last response was rude. — Paine

No worries. I wasn't entirely sure what you were saying, so I didn't come to any conclusions.

What Crisp is saying does reflect what is is happening here but is actively being opposed by efforts that want to have power over the next generation. — Paine

Indeed. In Crisp's time, the conservative mainstream rigorously controlled the narrative already, so there weren’t safeguards to dismantle. I think boredom will probably win. But who knows?

Is there a similar struggle going on in the Down Under? — Paine

Not really. But I don't follow my culture very closely. Our main problem is a tendency towards neoliberalism and the notion that the market should be the arbiter of culture and society. Our culture war is in slow motion compared to yours, which seems to be a cold civil war when viewed by outsiders. In our country voting is compulsory, and younger people with more progressive views seem to make up much of the voting block, so reactionary views really only find support among the older, the 'crazies' and country folk.

've been exposed to some arguments of anti-psychiatry, but I'm not invested enough in the project of psychiatry to want to really dig into them. I agree that it's not as objective as people are tempted to believe. — Moliere

There is no single project of psychiatry. It's also worth noting that the anti-psychiatry gurus are often psychiatrists themselves; people like Thomas Szasz, R.D. Laing, David Cooper, Franco Basaglia, Peter Breggin, and Giovanni Jervis. There's a lot of self-criticism built into the profession. I've worked with many psychiatrists over three decades, some brilliant, some dullards. None of them have ever held a view that what they do is objective. They would see thier profession as a mix of science, art, culture and intersubjective agreement. I think psychiatry probably arouses more hatred than almost any profession (even lawyers and politicians). How often is psychiatry the tool of oppression and anti-individualism in movies; from One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest to Girl, Interrupted? And god knows, like priests, lawyers, doctors, soldiers, police and politicians, shrinks have often done questionable things over time.

Nice.

I wonder what qualifies as a moderate leftist. Here in Australia someone like Biden would be seen as a centrist or possibly a conservative.

I have conservative (not right wing) friends who are certainly more forgiving of people's foibles and differences than some of my left friends, who seem to reach for morality every time they disagree with someone.

Tolerance is a terrible word. To be 'tolerated' sounds judgemental.

Quentin Crisp said something I have often agreed with. Tolerance does not create acceptance. Boredom does. When people experience and are exposed to certain lifestyles or people again and again, the fear or resentment often lifts and what was formerly perceived as divergent just becomes another shade of grey in our lives. I suspect this will happen with trans issues over time.

If I had to guess, philosophers who really took the content they were writing very seriously (like Plato) are the ones who have lasting fame. I'm thinking about how to tell the difference between the sophistic BS and the "deeper truth" philosophers, I'd appreciate if you elaborated because I don't know what you mean entirely. I think some deeper truths tend to get brushed aside either because people don't want to hear them or don't understand their importance. What makes a truth more important than another truth? — ProtagoranSocratist

If people find concepts difficult to understand, and if the content seems to contradict their core beliefs, they tend to dismiss it as "bullshit." We see this on the forum: if someone's worldview seems strange to another person, they are often accused of being a troll or lying. Incomprehension and a lack of values alignment seem to promote antipathy.

Why are some philosophers more prominent than others? Sometimes it's the result of a dominant culture that for generations has tirelessly promoted figures like Plato. Not that anyone today cares much about classical philosophy, except for those few with quirky hobbies.

Is philosophy about truth, or is it about generating elegant and satisfying fantasies that provide consolation? Do we actually look for views different from our own, or is philosophy mostly about us acquiring more and more sophisticated justifications for views we hold emotionally?

Sounds like usual 'alpha male' rhetoric. — unimportant

Except that it is not uttered by so called "alpha males'. So perhaps this is a deflection? Curious.

There’s a plethora of “ways out,” but I’m not confident in any myth-building that borrows from quantum mechanics. I have no expertise in the area. Based on the OP, it’s Jack who seems to be looking at ways to address or overcome the residual subject–object split that structures contemporary thinking.

In the last few years I feel like the only guarantee is life will get worse and worse so what is the point?

"Just because" is usually the reply or some prettied up version of it.

My parents are elderly and either they or their peers are talking of an ever growing list of health issues. You can do very little of what you used to enjoy so why wait to reach that stage? "Just because".

The live fast die young adage seems better. Also from an evolutionary perspective we weren't 'meant' to live past our 30s anyway so pretty much fighting against the tide. You can say it is part of our nature to fight against our nature, but, as above, why? if the only reward is worsening health. — unimportant

I've come to think that almost everything in life depends upon how you decide to look upon it. Old age can be a shipwreck or it can be rewarding. I've known plenty of old people (and worked with many), and how it plays out is almost entirely dependent upon attitude. It's easy to focus on losses, negatives and infirmities. My father, who lived until he was 98, considered his last 10 years amongst the best in his life. And even when his mobility was gone, he enjoyed reading and talking to people and was never bitter. He used to say that the old folk who complained most about old age were likely the same folk who began whinging in their teens and never stopped.

Maybe you need to go broader. Try phenomenology which understands the subjective and objective not as two separate realms but as mutually intertwined aspects of lived experience. It begins from the subjective, meaning our embodied and felt first-person encounter with the world, yet it stresses that this subjectivity is always already directed toward things that appear as objective. What we call objective arises when appearances become stable, repeatable, and shareable across different subjects. At the same time, our subjective experience is shaped by the structures, norms, and possibilities of the world we inhabit. In this way, phenomenology treats the subjective and the objective as co-constituting rather than opposed, each making the other possible.

At least that seems to be the framing. What does this add? For me it just reminds me that we get stuck in conventional dualistic thinking and there may be other ways out.

However, as writers of contemporary history, we have the opportunity to find out the answer to this question: can a person live peacefully with a private understanding of truth, instead of global narratives? — Astorre

Yes. Isn't one of the present problems that people have private understandings of truth instead of global narratives? Isn't it individualism versus community? Isn't it the atomistic nature of society and the small bubbles of intersubjective agreements and communities of truth that have replaced shared visions? At least that's what we often hear.

And they came to similar conclusions:
Outside of this, my education left me with a view that certainty is there to be overthrown and the world is chaotic.
— Tom Storm
and
Now, Order is perceived as a short-lived, fragile, localized accident amidst universal, fundamental Chaos.
— Astorre — Astorre

Well I’d say the conclusion is a reasonable one. But it isn’t the new order it’s been the consistent one.

You may be on to something. It is sobering to consider that I’m one of the first males in my family not to be affected by war or drafted to fight. So for me in my prosperous patch of the West it’s actually been nothing but prosperity and peace.


Fair.

Perhaps I received an outdated education, but it taught me that gender is an objective biological fac — Astorre

I was never taught anything about gender. Nothing I remember. There’s a bunch of threads on the more recent understanding here already.

I might add that we were also taught that if you want a higher chance of certainty and predictability in your world, you need to be rich. Predictably is a by product of power and wealth is how you obtain control. I think that has a certain logic to it, though it never left me with a motivation to make money.

Outside of this, my education left me with a view that certainty is there to be overthrown and the world is chaotic. And our flawed democracy was hard won and fragile.

The picture of the world that is still being taught today (I can see this from my children’s textbooks) looks roughly like this:

1. A problem has one correct answer.
2. Facts are objective.
3. The world is linear, comprehensible and obeys rules. — Astorre

Maybe this varies. The education I had (1970’s-80’s) was borderline relativism. We were taught that things appear different depending on who you are in society and that often there is no wrong answer. In history we were told that facts were interpretations and that history evolves over time, only the dates tend to stay fixed. I paid no attention in maths or science class as those subjects didn’t interest me, but I am assuming from the little I heard that established facts were more critical there. The overarching message of my schooling was “find out for yourself” - read diverse views and come to your own conclusions.

I don’t think we live in capitalism as such, more a capitalist inspired clusterfuck of earth raping corporate barbarism. In theory it is possible to have more compassionate capitalist systems that avoid destructive oligopolies. But in practice I think we’ll need a nuclear holocaust before there’s change. But I’m a pessimist, a defeatist and an indolent former wannabe Marxist who is too tired to spend time on such grandiose themes as world economic reform.

Nice. I’m not sure anyone can escape meaning or purpose. What we may not encounter is a transcendent purpose - a purpose above and beyond anything human. But I would suspect most theists don’t find this either.

We’re not all post-modern mercurial geniuses down here, I can tell you.

It is the distribution of evil - the child born into a short lifetime of extreme pain, for example - that is 'unfair', and thus God is rejected by many atheists, myself included.

And, of course, an omnipotent God who creates a human who will never be exposed to God's word, therefore never saved, therefore condemned to eternal hellfire, is potentially evil himself. — Jeremy Murray

Yes, I think those are fairly reasonable and conventional views. I tend to think about the problem of suffering (evil is such a limiting word). I think the more cartoon like and fundamentalist your God, the more the problem resonates. Surely a personal god (the magic sky wizard) with whom one has a relationship can do better?

But the more mystical or apophatic your theology is, the less things need to be explained and God remains unknowable. My favourite explanation for the existence of suffering is that because an apophatic God is beyond all attributes, we have no basis to expect the world to lack suffering.

He was banned 3 years ago.

The story that says we all evolved from a common origin is a realist story. — Janus

From most perspectives, certainly. But Bernardo Kastrup, who is not a realist, believes in evolution and seems to address the apparent irreconcilability. Not that I hold his view, I’m just saying… (Don't ask me to summarise it, very tedious).

I am not concerned about the final, unknowable metaphysical explanation for why and how those things fundamentally exist. They might be material existents or ideas in the mind of God. How could we know for certain? The question is: which explanation seems the more plausible to me or to you. — Janus

Fair. I’m just interested in the role human cognitive apparatus and values play in the construction of our world. How far it goes, I don’t know, but many philosophers think it goes pretty far. I'd like to entertain this notion for a while before I reject it (if that's what I end up doing).

I think we mostly agree.

Hello. I don’t think it is unusual at your age to feel chronic feelings of emptiness and nihilism, regardless of one’s background or fortunes.

I had a similar experience in my late teens and also found that being of use to others and doing things to support the community took my attention off my own experience and broadened my perspective. It took a year or two, but I gradually stopped feeling empty.

While I don’t believe there is any “meaning of life” style answer to human yearnings and existential dread, I do think we are surrounded by multiple meanings, and it becomes hard to avoid finding purpose and sense of solidarity if you engage with others. It’s easy for many of us to become obsessed with our own thought processes, judgements and reflections in a way that is unhealthy, and often having some strategies for getting out of your own head is helpful.

Thanks, I enjoyed the conversation.

I agree. There is a yin of conservative permanence (boundaries and limits) needed for the yang of liberal progression (marked by new boundaries and new limits). And vice versa. Breathing is both in and out.

It’s never been either/or despite what campaigning politicians tell us.

The myopia of liberalism is really the recent (enlightenment) moment of the ancient myopia of prideful human beings; liberalism just made this pride more available to more of the masses. So many today feel entitled to know better than others, to know better than history, so much so we can talk of imposing our enlightened wills through force. We allow ourselves willingly to stay blind (myopic) to any challenges to the holier than thou perches we’ve built for ourselves. Because this used to be the role of the king and the pope and the high classes, we think we are being progressing behaving as tyrannically as only kings used to.

Liberalism taught us that there is no essential difference between a “king” and a commoner, so there is no such thing as an actual “king”, and we are all just citizens. We the people alone consent to our government. This is a good political starting point, so liberalism is a force for good, certainly in politics.

But the west is hollowing its own good ideas of meaning and political application. — Fire Ologist

No substantive comment from me, except to say I found this post of yours especially interesting and it resonated with me.

Isn't that a level of agnosticism? I myself have been since my childhood an agnostic and feel quite happy about it. — ssu

The category is usually called agnostic atheist, since atheism refers to what you believe and agnosticism to what you know. It’s a popular category in the atheist realm. I have never been able to believe in any version of God I have been presented with, so I would say there is no God. But I would never claim to know this. This, of course, can lead to very tedious discussions about what counts as knowledge, the role of certainty, and so on.

But we usually tend to go with the stereotypes or the worst possible examples of some ideology or viewpoint and not accept the fact that a lot of intelligent, knowledgeable and informed people can have totally opposite world views from us. — ssu

Perhaps when it comes to different ideas, we should steelman them; present them in the strongest, most charitable form, before evaluating them. The fundamentalist Christian view of the world is a bit cartoonish and is mostly a variety of American Protestantism, which some consider a heresy.

Or then it's simply these times where the discourse is dominated by the algorithms, — ssu

Probably: the same bifurcated views circle around us ceaselessly. Perhaps our job is to get off the merry-go-round.

I think it's even more general than that. It's basic human nature, — ssu

Many students of religion, including Karen Armstrong, chart the development of modern biblical literalism, particularly the fundamentalist kind, as largely in reaction to modern science and historical-critical approaches to scripture. But no doubt there are additional dimensions to this.

those who don't swerve of from the teachings of their great philosopher, be it the Karl Marx or someone else, will put themselves on the pedestal and proclaim to be better than others. If it happens even in philosophy, you bet it will happen in other human endeavors also. — ssu

You may disagree, but I think that may be something related to, but different from, fundamentalism. Fundamentalism seems to be about how a text is interpreted and the reading that is presented as ‘correct’. What you’re raising, however, seems like an adjacent and perhaps more interesting element: zealotry.

Do you see much fundamentalism where you live? Here in Australia, it flickers in marginal spaces, largely due to the influence of American Protestant culture via social media and online communities. But it’s still a minor force. The default setting here seems to be a general lack of interest in God or religion.

Does it follow that what we perceive reveals nothing about what is "out there"? — Janus

Whether it follows or not may not be the issue. Also, what is meant by “reveals nothing”? And what is meant by “out there”? I’m willing to entertain a constructivist view, though I haven’t spent much time thinking about it.

So, it seems most reasonable to think that we and the other animals perceive both what is possible given our various perceptual systems, and also selectively perceive what is of most significance. — Janus

I don’t think this makes much difference. Animals respond to shapes, movement, shadows, and food sources, patterns trigger responses. But what does this really say about reality itself? We all evolved from a common origin and "materials", so we likely share similar hard wiring, even if it has been organized radically differently over time. I really don't know how much animal comparisons give us.

But I don’t want to pollute this thread with yet another round of the realism debate in philosophy. :wink:

The typical atheist argument is that for example all the creation stories are, to put it mildly, quite far from our scientific understanding, hence everything in religion is quite dubious. The problem then comes when the same question is asked, what then is good and what is bad? The vague reference to humanity or something hides that the problem isn't solved. It still is a subjective issue. — ssu

Atheism is a pretty broad area. Most people are only familiar with the Dawkins/Hitchens approach, which is polemical, mostly non-philosophical, and often childish and petulant.

I am a freethinker and atheist, but my form of atheism is simply that I lack a belief in God. I don’t claim that God doesn’t exist, because I don’t have that knowledge. While some philosophers don’t like this formulation because it differs from the conservative tradition of atheism, which asserts all gods to be false, I think it is a common view among organised atheists these days.

If we can simply say that atheists have a position on the existence of God, we can also say that they are diverse in the other beliefs they hold. As someone who used to have connections to humanist and atheist organisations, I know that many atheists also believe in clairvoyance, UFO abductions, and ghosts. They don’t necessarily rule out all eccentric or supernatural claims.

The idea that God doesn’t exist simply because the stories in holy books are myths is not very strong reasoning. The problem with most obvious forms of atheism is that they only critique the low-hanging fruit of fundamentalism and literalism, which is equally disparaged by many believers, including theologians like David Bentley Hart and Bishop John Shelby Spong. I grew up in the Baptist tradition. I was taught that the Old Testament stories are myths and allegories. I believe this is a well-established tradition in Christianity. Literalism seems to be a reaction to modernity and a retreat into concrete thinking as a bulwark against changing culture.

One area I’m interested in is the idea that certain philosophical approaches (like enactivism and constructivism) argue that the regularities we find in science are not pre-given structures in nature, but patterns that emerge through our investigative practices. On this view, order is not merely discovered but enacted or co-created through the interaction between human observers, their conceptual frameworks, and the world they study.

The reason I find this interesting is that it flips the usual picture of science, so often used as the foundational justification for physicalist and narrowly atheistic accounts and offers a more interesting way to think about scientific knowledge and truth than the idea that they simply exist ‘out there' for us to discover.

You say "fair enough", but I would like to know whether you agree or disagree or are uncertain and why. — Janus

Not sure. I wanted to say something more interesting...

Fair enough. Richard Rorty once said in an interview, something like, “We can talk all about justification, but about truth we can say very little. “ No doubt a contestable and controversial claim.

I may not have done much of a job of articulating this and have tried to be more precise as I go, But philosophy is @Leontiskos interest and so he has more tools at his disposal . He’s probably pretty good at it. I wasn’t trying to offer a conventional relativist position but maybe that’s what I did earlier.

Thanks for your forensic analysis of my summary of anti-foundationalism. I’ll mull over what you wrote. Maybe someone else will chime in with a view on it.

I’m arguing that in anti-foundationalism all justification occurs within our own systems, even for statements about justification itself. You seem to be saying that this implies that truth itself is context-dependent, which is not what I am claiming. Your point is valid but misdirected, my focus is on justification, not the nature of truth.

My wording may well have been sloppy, given this is not an area of expertise, only a matter I’m interested in and trying to articulate. As you said before, I’m also short on style and rhetoric.

The word 'meta' originally meant 'after', but I think it has subsequently come to mean the above. — Clarendon

I thought “meta” referred to self-referential discourse.

I had a reality crisis when I was young where I realized I have no way to determine if what I'm experiencing is real. — frank

Interesting. I had a similar experience when I was 15 or 16.

My current position is that I have no choice but to accept the reality I’m in and that humans are sense-making creatures who use language (and other tools) to manage their environment. It's likely we don’t have the capacity to access a Capital-T Truth, and philosophy is perhaps best avoided, as it tends only to lead to 1) convoluted attempts to justify seemingly impossible beliefs or 2) endless confusion and self-reflexivity. :wink: