You're from Spain?

True, you get free healthcare -- and some people who don't work also get it. But isn't that how it should be, as a basic right? — Xtrix

Yes I am from Spain, I live in Madrid.
It is not only a basic right but a constitutional one. It is so reinforced and secured by the law. "Every citizen in Spain, doesn't matter their nationality, has the right of a public and universal wealthcare system" so, everybody here gets hospital attention without bills because it is maintained by public taxes.
Nevertheless, we also have some private hospitals that work even better.

Sometimes, public and universal wealthcare can be an oasis. It is not as good as it seems. It is true that is basic right that everyone deserves. But, at the end of the day the vaccines were developed by countries which also reinforce the private sector as UK and USA. What Spain has made about the pursuing of vaccines despite the public wealthcare system? Nothing... So the public expenditure is not good at all.

Good thread and important points to debate about, but let me clarify two important key points that you should be aware of:

Mondragón comes from Erresate in Basque. I tell you this issue because if you search deeply in internet with the word in Basque you will find more information.
About the famous corporation: Basque Country signed a very important deal with the spanish government in 2002 where they let them have their own “taxation system”. Thanks to this, they develop an own work and economic plan, completely apart from Spain.
I am not saying with this Mondragón is a fake issue. I believe a lot in Basque people, they are heavy and responsible workers. But... we have to admit they have some advantages that other regions don’t.

About the healthcare system... yes we have universal “free” healthcare that are maintained with our taxes. I don’t know what to say about this. Sometimes I feel is not worthy at all. It is true that here any hospital will leave you in the street for not having an insurance but at the same time there are many folks who are using the healthcare system everyday without working.

So there are folk who accept the correspondence theory of truth, and accept that 12/6=2 is true, and hence conclude that there are things to which 12/6=2 corresponds. That's one of the excuses offered for Platonism. — Banno

Interesting explanation. Probably I am thinking wrongly, but can we put here the Aristotle’s syllogisms? All these principle of “truth” inside mathematics and then, your example, it reminds me about the classic syllogistic method of Darapti, Felapton, Bramantip, and Fesapo.

By the way, what changes would you like to see? — Apollodorus

I want to see the following changes in Spain:

1 Educational system. Our universities are completely awful. They do not do anything interesting neither motivate the students. You cannot allow a system where you tell to the students that is “normal” to have a low income afterwards. When you are here, you feel like everything is cheated or corrupted. I want a more transparent and flexible colleges procedure. The lack and insufficient educational skills make Spain with the most young people unemployed (around 44 %. What an embarrassing rate...)
For example: I completely do not understand why despite the fact, we are the most tourist country of the world, most of the Spaniards lack of English skills. Can anyone explain this to me?

2. It is time to make peace with ourselves. There are a lot of division in the political context. When you have so, it is very difficult to reach consensus and pacts to improve the State. Most of the situations here feel like “revenge” against the political adversary. It is so useless promoting a good law and then, the opposite part in the parliament say “we will derogate it the next four years”. There is not a clearly plan to us. I do not know what the future holds in my country. I wish there is not more division. Since 1898, when we lost our last colonies, Spain has not did anything interesting at all. Only incompetents in the government.

3. I think the tax system is not well dispensed by the administration. Despite the fact Spain is a big imputation country where you have to pay a lot of taxes for everything, the income that the State receives, is not in a worthy expenditure. I do not see social changes neither impressive aspects. I have to admit with all the pain of the world, but yes, Spain is a poor country and I do understand that my State needs a lot of Taxes to have a good income because we don’t have here wealthy companies or entrepreneurs.
Due to this situation, we end up in a “black economy” (around 25 % of spanish GDP is in black money... check: https://feelingeurope.eu/Pages/Shadow_Economy_in_Europe.pdf) where the Spaniards only understand the only way it seems to survive because if I do have a low income and then the State demands on me a lot of taxes, it is understandable such big portion of black economy. I rather be “outside” the law and have cash everywhere because the taxes seem to not be worthy at all.
We, the Spaniards, do not trust the State at all and I think is sad... Imagine having an income of around 500 - 950 € and then having these prices of house and taxes:



Conclusion: I live in a State which doesn’t respect the individual in both scenarios: education and wealth. I only demand a government which will respect us doesn’t matter the ideology.
Hopefully, we are in the EU. Thanks to them, Spain doesn’t live in a third world country (we are close to)

Completely agree with your argument, but why do you think existentialism is not a school or theory?
I think it could be because there are an important number of writers or thinkers involved in this attitude. Depending in which author we are speaking about, existentialism has different perspectives. Then, probably we can classify it in some academies.

In the utmost respectful way possible I find Søren Kierkegaard, Fyodor Dostoevsky, Jean-Paul Sartre, Friedrich Nietzsche philosophy teaching in my personal opinion outdated. It was probably more applicable to that generation and culture of there time. — SteveMinjares

No. All of that was written by this philosophers and thinkers, can be applied today. It is not about culture or generation. They developed a very important theory: existentialism and the absurdity of living. Here we can debate a lot of how we can interpret this aspect. One of the elements I like is about Kierkegaard’s or Schopenhauer’s pessimism rationalist. The way I can see my life with zero motivations or fantasies, more realistic and yes, negativism. But this completely logic because there are plenty or arguments we can share about how acceptable this path of seeing our lives is so accurate.
Conclusion: Existentialism is logic and crucial. It was very important back in XIX century. Now is so developed with anti-natalism thoughts.

Afghanistan — Shawn

The world and UN gave up on this country since 1991. Probably because they do not have oil.
Taliban forces are accurate for all of those who work in the world drug dealer market. It is a country which produces a lot of weed and heroine.
Why didn’t they (UN, NATO, etc...) remove all the plantations the Taliban forces have in their territories?

Who "owns" the corporation? Private and public? — Xtrix

It is divided between the richest businessmen and the State. They both own the private and public corporations.

What is the most powerful position within a corporation? — Xtrix

The one which makes all the rules and decisions in the shadows. Most of the workers do not know about him or her.

Who decides what to produce, how to produce, where to produce? — Xtrix

I guess three actors: market, State and the few richest businessmen of that market.

Who decides what to do with the profits? — Xtrix

Again, the same person who is in the “shadows” controlling everything and we not know anything about.

Where do the profits mostly go, in today's typical fortune 500 company? — Xtrix

I would say (e) and (h).

Would anyone say that a corporation is run democratically? — Xtrix

No, I think it is not run democratically.

"Would you want to work in one of these institutions?" — Xtrix

It depends. If I work normally in an ordinary position with a good income I would say yes. But I cannot see myself in positions with a lot of power because it seems to be so corrupt.

Nothing, especially if it matters, is safe or will ever get better or will not make you suffer. (pessimism) — 180 Proof

:100: :up:

God created the universe — EnPassant

Prove me he created the universe. I am waiting here.

Philosophical pessimists are very rooted in traditional value systems. Existence itself is seen as having a generally negative quality. Suffering is inherent in being human, or being born, or perhaps existence itself (pace Schopenhauer's Will). Thus, the elimination of suffering would be akin to never being born or some type of ascetic practice or de-individuation where one can extirpate the suffering to some extent (pace Buddhism). — schopenhauer1

Excellent. Hats off to this good argument :100:

I feel so related to this. Not only with the fact of not being born I secure not suffer at all but not hurting others. If I never were born, then I would not be able to hurt, punch, rape, steal, disappoint, kill or betray you.
Not existing can produce benefits for both parts: the "persons" who never been born and all the people he never will met.

The main point I'm making is that matter is a mathematical reality and this is evidence for God's existence since a mathematical concept needs a mind to originate in. — EnPassant

But why maths and matter need to be related to God? How do you know God has a “mind”?

And if God exists that is where the idea originated, right? — EnPassant

The premise is wrong since the moment that you cannot prove God’s existence at all. Believing or not in something so personal as religion is free to someone’s thoughts. But I guess we should not mix it with science to be honest...
God never “created” the material universe neither the matter, universe and earth we live in. Science is the main academic source which develop and research the principles about physics writing tons of proofs and investigations.
God and religion are just beliefs...

Yes, I understand what matter is, but why do you mix it with religion saying is in God’s mind?

Matter is a concept in God's mind. — EnPassant

What?

Hard-boiled Wonderland And The End Of The Word - Haruki Murakami — Noble Dust

Excellent book! One of my favorites from Murakami.

I am not sure as to how it really qualifies as a political philosophy and not just some lifestyle trend. — thewonder

I understand your point and what you feel. Probably this is due to how Anarchism is related to many aspect in life furthermore political issues. It is interesting that many people use to see Anarchy as a sense of “violence” or freedom to do whatever without punishment. This where most the people are wrong. Anarchism wants to show us that humanity can be responsible by themselves without any kind of political dogma. Thus, the State.
The idea is misunderstood and confused for most of the people, I guess this is the reason why there are an amount of people that criticize it.
I guess this philosophical/political/social etc… view is not necessarily related to socialism or leftist ideas. Anarchism is sui generis
These are just my points but who knows! There are a lot of essays that could be written in this issue.

Anarchy 101, Bob Black. — thewonder

This sounds so interesting. I will check it out deeply later on.



I am surprised that in all of your arguments and theories about Anarchism, you did not mentioned Bakunin. He was so important in this field because he saw Anarchism as a movement not only against State but their selfishness. One of the objectives of Bakunin was the union and cooperation of European nations by the culture value, not economic or politically. Most of his writings are about of how wasteful is seems having political ideologies because these tend to provoke more issues than solutions. So, Bakunin, tried his best to build a nation where the citizens could make interest things without the matter of political bureaucracy.
Sadly, nobody put attention to Bakunin ever and then, you see how polarized are the people in this issue. To be honest, I even think that is difficult pursue an Anarchic community because there will always be people who would act selfish or hurt others, so you have to put at least some order according to law. But, exactly in this context, we have another problem: all the vicious and corrupt politicians buy judicial power. It is difficult to have a clear or transparent rule of law which controls the governors or something related.

So, isolation may have its own advantages after all. Just think what materialism, open borders, and unrestricted immigration can do your country. — Apollodorus

Yes, I understand that an open country or world can be dangerous. But, in the end, it has more advantages than issues. European Union is a good example. Spain changed a lot thanks for being a member nation. Our GDP increased so fast and many people started to go more to university and learning languages. The incomes per year grew a lot too.
I guess it depends in the customs of each country. A mediterranean nation needs to be connected with others because it looks like it is our roots (i.e., many people here really love to make foreign friends, stay in the street, etc...) but I guess an Asian country as China does not have this kind of culture so it could be easier to establish a communist regime.

To be honest with you, I feel Spain disappoints me as a Spaniard. My country has a lot of opportunities around but it looks like our governors do not want to make important choices. Just cheap tourism... also we do not have a good image around the globe and I think it is unfair because we all are not the same...

Why do authorities underestimate the intelligence and flair of outsiders and then complain there aren't enough takers for science and maths studies?

I made to myself this question plenty of times. I do not understand why they are so sticky in their arguments either. Probably they feel anxious if they new generations can take their positions or something. This is one of the objects I really missed in our modern education system: flexibility and the aim to motivate the outsiders. I feel that the ancient principle of "the disciple can surpass the master" is tumbling down. You are speaking about maths and science but somehow this applies to all academic areas.

but not in "logic" books, where they would be equally appropriate.

Do you think this should be more attractive or eye catching?

I did not see the investments yet chief... :yikes:

Sánchez puts Spain ‘on the radar’ of US investors

After virtue: a study in moral theory. by Alasdair Macintyre.

Plan to read:
Los desamoramientos by Javier Marías.
Oh, what a paradise it seems by John Cheever.

I wrote death is a “natural” process because it is inside our DNA the act of dye, and then all our lovers will dye one day before us do it, simple. It is unstoppable. I want it to accept it the most transparent or rational way possible but I can’t do it yet.
I guess the issue here is not only your parent or pet “dying” but how nostalgic and depressed you will feel afterwards.
I remember four years ago, when a Boxer dog of mine died. The veterinary said to us my dog had six months left before death. I thought “this is better because I rather see it resting peacefully than being so sick”, but when the final day came I wasn’t ready as I thought. It gave me pity the act of how the time flies by and I understood nothing lasts forever.

The plain, pure, and simple fact that we will someday die, and, therefore, cease to exist entirely produces acute anxiety. Death positivists seek to cope with this anxiety by situating death as a mere part of the human experience. They seek to cope with the anxiety of becoming aware that you will someday die in an attempt to overcome it — thewonder

Furthermore the fact we all going to die one day, it gives more anxiety the fact of the lovers I will leave behid in our path to the "final days".
If you live alone, probably you will not live such difficult situation and probably, you would able to understand that we are finite.
But, it hurts when your parents or pets dye before you... It is so sad really. We have to understand it because is the "natural process"

Karl Popper — Cheshire

I love this man so much. It was a true philosopher of science and a good person. Before he passed away at the age of 92, he was still answering all the letters to his disciples. Incredible.

The Marshall Plan and the Spanish postwar economy – ResearchGate — Apollodorus

Thank you. This was a very interesting article to read. I learned a bit about what happened to my country in the 40’s. Sadly, the key word is isolation which led Spain in the completely misery...

I remember debating nihilism inside this forum some months ago. I still defending the same which is so similar to you: Nihilism is a period of life. When you are having a bad moment with depression or sadness you tend to feel nihilistic and not believe in what the future holds. Tobe honest is a very negative period of time because when we are living it we do not have the motivation to do something and it is horrible.
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Then here we have the important issue: pessimism or at least understand life is very difficult and painful. Kierkegaard helped me out a lot in this context. I recommend to you his book the concept of anxiety" is very helpful to clarify the ideas.
In this point, yes, I am agree with you, pessimism and pessimistic thoughts are completely valid and logic

:up:

we don't goof up! — TheMadFool

I never heard of this word until today. I translated into my language and it means tontear. This is why I love philosophy of language! Everyday I am learning something new about. Now I am understanding you and your argument better.

I prefer the Diamond Rule because it skirts the issue of how your personal idiosyncracies may throw a spanner in the works — TheMadFool

Me too. Apart from the same reason as yours, because I guess we should show something previously before we demand to others an action. It is important to have a good image in interior and exterior relations.

Others define your actions — TheMadFool

Exactly. This is why we should act in the honorable way as much as we can do it. It is important also to not be misunderstood.
Good intentions, sometimes, do not help or matter...

Isn't it shù?" , "What you do not want yourself," , "Don't do to others." (XV:23/24) (Confucius).
———————————————————
Also the so called “golden rule” or diamond rule as @TheMadFool explained above.
One of the big problems inside this ethical rule is that no always all the people want to respect it. There are a lot of selfish and vicious persons that literally enjoy the act of harming others. It is cruel.
Also, keep in mind that others will act as fake and try to absorb your humility. Be careful... I guess the accurate situation is stay neutral.

Marshall Plan according to which European states that wanted US aid to reconstruct their countries after the war had to commit themselves to economic cooperation leading to political union. — Apollodorus

A plan that never existed in Spain... probably because Franco won and established a dictatorship? So ironic! Because later on US White House loved in the 60’s having Franco in Europe as a counter “socialism/communism” governor. This is why American government established a lot of military bases: Rota, Torrejón, Palomares, etc...

Many people who get power (and this is an ill-defined word) end up using/abusing that power in ways that are not ethical. — Tom Storm

I think that is even a vicious circle. Many of the politicians have to act in this way if they want to “survive” inside the powerful sides of the State. Not only a monetary corruption but a social one, like cheating or having “secrets” from others... I guess this is something so unstoppable.

Existence and being are not the same. — EnPassant

I guess this principle depends in the philosophical point of view you are considering in. According to Cartesian logic, existence depends a lot of “being” which is connected to awareness. This is why Descartes wrote his famous theory and phrase: “cogito ergo sum”

Real belief in God is a matter of consciousness not intellect. Intellectual knowledge is only one kind of knowledge. More sublime levels of knowledge can come from consciousness (what some people call 'delusion').
I engage in intellectual arguments because that is the only arena that most materialists are willing to enter. Also to hopefully arrive at the realization that intellectual arguments will not resolve anything either way.
I don't think most people believe/disbelieve because their intellect leads them that conclusion. Belief and disbelief operate on a more subtle level. Intellectual arguments are post hoc; an apology for one's standpoint. — EnPassant

Agreed :up: :100:

Lost Atlantis — SteveMinjares

Isn't this comes from Plato Dialogues? It is always been believed that this legend city existed in reality but it disappeared through the years.
Atlantis as It Was Told in Plato's Socratic Dialogues

Some researchers think this lost city existed in my homeland (Spain) :death: :eyes: HISTORIANS HAVE FINALLY ‘DISCOVERED’ ENCHANTED LOST CITY OF ATLANTIS IN SOUTHERN SPAIN

I gues they are saving it forever lol — hope

Because they want to control our data... It is so scary.

We are what they want us to be. The solution is being a fish who swims countercurrent. All of these powerful (including the press and media which are even worse...) entities want to brainwash us without tolerance. It is difficult living alone and not been caught by these elements but I think is worthy to give it a try.
If I believe in something, I do it because I want not forced. If I learn a new language, is due to I want to not because "laboral opportunities"
It is time to go back to Greek-Roman Era where the culture and individualism were more respected.

What is happiness? — Xtrix

This is a good question and a purpose Aristotle used to teach back in Ancient times. I do not how to answer but I defend it is not related to materialism as buying a big car/house... Like sadly the social media wants to show us.

Maybe the Tao Te Ching is a recipe for meat pie. lol — hope

Or a good glass of sake :lol:

He describes the Tao, which is consciousness. — hope

Good interpretation of how you see the Tao.
But check out how many variations could be:
https://www.centertao.org/essays/understanding-the-tao-te-ching/
http://fs.unm.edu/NeutrosophicTaoTeChing.pdf
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20006197

The opposite of belief is experience. — hope

No. Both concepts are not necessarily being opposites. They can be even explained together or as David Hume, explained, “it is more connected with custom”

and a description of something is not a belief about it. — hope

Lao Tse does not describe anything in Tao. He just expresses how he sees nature, humans, communities, peace, etc... in a metaphorical technique through the verses.