• Tao follows Nature
    Here, there seems to be a separation between vertical levels. 'Low' humans, portrayed as basic, climbing upwards to reach the Taoist Way. Perhaps, an eternal return. I like to think that humans form part of Nature's cycle. We 'follow' as in accompany. So, the form or structure is more of a circle than a ladder. — Amity

    This is a good description, although I don't think Lao Tzu saw humanity as a lower level - maybe just more complicated. The Tao Is absolute simplicity or, actually, what comes before absolute simplicity. This is Gia-Fu Feng's translation of Verse 1.

    The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
    The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
    The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth.
    The named is the mother of the ten thousand things.
    Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
    Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations.
    These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
    this appears as darkness.
    Darkness within darkness.
    The gate to all mystery.     — Tao Te Ching, Verse 1

    I think this shows respect for both the Tao and the 10,000 things, which represent the multiplicity of distinctions in our everyday world. Humanity is one of the 10,000 things.
  • 2025: 50th anniversary of Franco's death...
    That said, I have no idea why Spain strikes him as more repressive than other parts of Europe, and what he thinks the Islamic history has to do with that. — Jamal

    This has come up before in different contexts. I try to be honest and self-aware about my prejudices, of which there are many. When I put those attitudes into words, people often take that to mean I endorse that position. I've acknowledged that my attitude is prejudiced. That means I recognize it's not rational. I do my best not to let those attitudes affect my behavior. Generally, I think I can do that pretty well. In this case, I picked the wrong time to speak, which is not that unusual here on the forum or in my life.
  • Draft letter to G. Priest - Epistemic warrant interpretation of a multi-variate computational system
    I look forward to hearing from you. — Ennui Elucidator

    I must admit I understood little of what you wrote, but I do have a suggestion. The letter is long and dense. I think you might have a better chance of Priest reading it if you shortened it to a one or two paragraph summary, maybe something like an abstract for an article. Then, if he shows interest, you can hit him with the more complete presentation.
  • Tao follows Nature
    I was questioning the justification for this interpretation which was being presented as the one true interpretation: — Janus

    I misunderstood. I thought you were trying to call into question the entire approach of the Tao Te Ching, which would have been outside the scope of the discussion as described in the OP.
  • Tao follows Nature
    it actually does work for me. It and the Bhagavad Gita are two of my favorite texts. — Janus

    Then why were you so argumentative?
  • Tao follows Nature
    It’s not so much coincidence as parallel development. — Wayfarer

    Thanks. I probably used a confusing word. By "coincidence" I meant that the events described happened at the same time, not that it was (necessarily) a matter of chance. The article indicates it doesn't appear there was any intellectual or cultural contact between east and west during this period, which goes back to my original question.
  • 2025: 50th anniversary of Franco's death...
    You criticize me for having the Inquisition and 'Islamic culture' in my history, yet you find it acceptable to have nuked Japan twice. Americans are very hard to understand... — javi2541997

    I have had and will continue to say plenty of negative things about the US. And for what it's worth, Japan had about 2 million deaths in World War 2. China had 20 million at the hands of the Japanese.

    I did not intend to offend you.
  • 2025: 50th anniversary of Franco's death...
    to see if you had negative prejudices towards my country. — javi2541997

    I acknowledge they are prejudices. I thought you wanted me to be honest and I tried to be without making myself look good.
  • 2025: 50th anniversary of Franco's death...
    Did you ever care about the death of Franco and then the born of democracy here? — javi2541997

    Please forgive me for this. It’s from 1975.



    Franco was not well liked here in the US.

    As for Spain, like all good Americans, I don’t pay much attention to Europe. Spain has always struck me as a more rigid repressive society than other places in Europe. I think that’s partly because of its history of Islamic culture and partly because of Franco and Spanish Civil War. And then there is the Spanish inquisition, which none of us expect.

    People I know who’ve been to Spain loved it. The food is great, lots of interesting history, and beautiful cities, especially Barcelona. Over the last decade or so we’ve heard quite a bit about the troubles Spain has had as a member of the EU. That probably colors my attitude also. We also hear about how Spain is thought of as a cheap vacation spot. It is not given much respect in Europe.
  • Tao follows Nature
    Forgive me for this. I just remembered that I wrote a long discussion of Verse 25 a few years ago for a discussion group I was in. It includes several different translations as well as some commentary by others. This discussion is based on my own understanding of the text and is in no way authoritative. I put it in hide/reveal so people can disregard it if they aren't interested.

    Reveal
    Verse 25

    Stephen Mitchell

    There was something formless and perfect
    before the universe was born.
    It is serene. Empty.
    Solitary. Unchanging.
    Infinite. Eternally present.
    It is the mother of the universe.
    For lack of a better name,
    I call it the Tao.
    It flows through all things,
    inside and outside, and returns
    to the origin of all things.

    The Tao is great.
    The universe is great.
    Earth is great.
    Man is great.
    These are the four great powers.

    Man follows the earth.
    Earth follows the universe.
    The universe follows the Tao.
    The Tao follows only itself.

    Ellen Marie Chen

    There was something nebulous existing (yu wu hun ch’eng),
    Born before heaven and earth.
    Silent, empty,
    Standing alone (tu), altering not (pu kaki),
    Moving cyclically without becoming exhausted (pu tai),
    Which may be called the mother of all under heaven.
    I know not its name,
    I give its alias (tzu), Tao.
    If forced to picture it,
    I say it is “great” (ta).

    Therefore Tao is great,
    Heaven is great,
    Earth is great,
    The king is also great.
    In the realm there are four greats,
    And the king is one of them.
    Humans follow (fa) earth,
    Earth follows heaven,
    Heaven follows Tao,
    Tao follows self-becoming (tzu-jan).

    Ron Hogan

    Something perfect has existed forever,
    even longer than the universe.
    It's a vast, unchanging void.
    There's nothing else like it.
    It goes on forever and never stops.
    Everything else came from it.
    I don't know what else to call it
    So I'll call it Tao.
    What's it like?
    I can tell you this much: it's great.

    Something that great lasts.
    Something that lasts goes a long way.
    And something that goes a long way
    always comes back to the beginning.

    Tao's great.
    Heaven's great.
    Earth's great.
    And someone who's in touch with Tao is great, too.
    Those are the four greatest things in the universe
    and a Master is one of them.

    Someone who's in touch with Tao
    is in touch with the earth.
    The earth is in touch with heaven.
    Heaven's in touch with Tao.
    Tao's in touch with the way things are.

    I like this verse, at least the first stanza. I get a bit lost in the others, especially since some of the translations indicate that the other stanzas directly follow from the first. I don’t see the connection.

    I’ve included Ron Hogan’s interpretation, which I can’t decide if I like. This translation was suggested by ZzzoneiroCosm. It’s much more American and less poetic than any of the other translations. If I had read it first, I don’t know if I would have been attracted to the Tao Te Ching as much as I was.

    I’ve also included all of Lin Yutang’s selections from the Chuang Tzu, which I really like.

    Stanza 1 - Stephen Mitchell’s translation

    There was something formless and perfect
    before the universe was born.
    It is serene. Empty.
    Solitary. Unchanging.
    Infinite. Eternally present.
    It is the mother of the universe.
    For lack of a better name,
    I call it the Tao.
    It flows through all things,
    inside and outside, and returns
    to the origin of all things.

    As I noted, I like this stanza. It feels like a review section before the midterm exam for the verses covered so far. I especially like the discussion of how the Tao got its name. Turns out it was just made up because we couldn’t think of anything else to call it. It’s kind of a nickname. For me that answers the paradox of Verse 1, where Lao Tzu just jumps in without explanation and names the nameless.

    The subject of the cyclic return of the 10,000 things to the Tao is reiterated here. As I’ve noted in earlier posts, I struggled with this idea for a long time. Now, I see it as recognition that, while the Tao is separated into the 10,000 things by the act of naming, the 10,000 things are always returning to the Tao, i.e. that the act of creation didn’t happen 14 billion years ago, it’s always happening. It’s happening now. I think the idea of returning is one of those things that means different things depending on the situation.

    Stanzas 2 and 3 - Stephen Mitchell translation

    The Tao is great.
    The universe is great.
    Earth is great.
    Man is great.
    These are the four great powers.

    Man follows the earth.
    Earth follows the universe.
    The universe follows the Tao.
    The Tao follows only itself.

    These stanzas discuss what I have called a “ladder” in previous posts. There are a lot of different ladders in the Tao Te Ching and related documents. Here are a few examples:

    From Verse 42 - Stephen Mitchell

    The Tao gives birth to One.
    One gives birth to Two.
    Two gives birth to Three.
    Three gives birth to all things.

    From Verse 18 - Stephan Stenud

    When the great Tao is abandoned,
    Benevolence and righteousness arise.
    When wisdom and knowledge appear,
    Great pretense arises.
    When family ties are disturbed,
    Devoted children arise.
    When people are unsettled,
    Loyal ministers arise.

    From “The Great One Gives Birth to the Waters” - a text related to the Tao Te Ching. Very confusing.

    {The Great One} gave birth to Water. Water returned to assist (A) {The Great One}, [and] by means of this the Heavens were completed/manifested. The Heavens returned to assist {The Great One}, [and] by means of this the Earth was completed. The Heavens and Earth [returned to assist each other] [and] by means of this the Spirits and Luminaries were completed. The Spirits and Luminaries returned to assist each other, [and] by means of this Yin and Yang were completed. Yin and Yang returned to assist each other, [and] by means of this the Four Seasons were completed. The Four Seasons returned to assist each other (E), [and] by means of this Cold and Hot (F) were completed. Cold and Hot returned to assist each other, [and] by means of this Wet and Dry (G) were completed. Wet and Dry returned to assist each other, completing the Yearly Cycle (H) and that‘s all….

    In this verse, it seems as if Lao Tzu is working to connect the cosmic and the human. To show where we fit in.

    Man follows the earth.
    Earth follows the universe.
    The universe follows the Tao.
    The Tao follows only itself.

    In some of the translations, instead of “man” it says “the ruler,” which raises the question that comes up often - whether the Tao Te Ching is meant for all of us or just the bosses.

    Humanity, Earth, Heaven, and the Tao are called the four great powers. There is clearly a hierarchy with the Tao at the top.

    Lin Yutang’s commentary

    In this chapter, the working of the eternal principle of Tao and the silent revolutions of the heavenly bodies are seen as a model worthy of the imitation by man. It restates the argument that Tao should not be named, and if it is given a name, it is purely an exigency of human speech. It also states the principle of reversion of all things to their origin, a principle which makes creation and destruction different aspects of the same process.The universe is an orchestrated symphony, where human beings follow the laws of the land in which they live. At a level above this, the Earth follows the laws of astronomy - the rules that govern the motions of heavenly bodies. The cosmos in turn follow the patterns of the Tao at a macroscopic level. Ultimately, the Tao itself follows natural laws, which arise from the Tao process. This underscores the self-sufficiency and self-completeness of the Tao.

    Lin Yutang’s selections from the Chuang Tzu relevant to this verse

    The Chuang Tzu, also called the Zhuangzi, is the second foundational text of Taoism, written a couple of hundred years after the Tao Te Ching.

    25.1. THE MYSTERY OF THE UNIVERSE. Is the sky revolving around? Is the earth remaining still? Are the sun and the moon competing for their places? Who manages them? Who holds them in control? Who has nothing to do and is making these things move? Is it perhaps that there is a mechanism so that the heavenly bodies cannot help themselves? Is it perhaps that they continue to revolve and cannot stop themselves? Clouds become rain, and rain becomes clouds. Who makes them rise and come down? Who has nothing to do and is urging them to do so for his own pleasure? The wind rises from the north; it blows east and west, and there is a steady blow in the stratosphere. Who is sucking and blowing it alternately? Who has nothing to do and is shaking it about like this?

    Chuangtse does not answer the questions directly, but in the following paragraph speaks of these operations of nature in a description of what he calls the heavenly Tse-jan, lit. “self-so,” ”self-formed,” “‘that which is so by Itself.”

    THE IMITATION OF TAO which ends with a quotation from an old sacred song of Yu-yen (Shen-nung')
    .
    ''You listen and cannot hear Its voice, you look and cannot see its form. It fills the whole universe and encompasses the six points of space. You want to listen to it, and yet there is no point of
    Contact. See also the selection 6.i, 'The Silent, Beautiful
    Universe” "The heaven cannot help being high, the earth cannot
    help being wide. The sun and the moon cannot help going around, and all things of the creation cannot help but live and grow. Perhaps this is Tao.See the context in 4.1. "Existing before the heaven and earth, it is not regarded as long ago, being older than the primeval beginnings, it is not regarded as old.'

    25 2 TAO IS NAMED "GREAT.' THE ETERNAL CYCLES.

    "Can you then just call it Tao?” asked Little Knowledge."No, replied Taikung Tiao. 'We speak of The myriad things' of the creation, although we know that there are more than a myriad of them. Because the number is so great, we just call it 'myriad.' The heaven and earth are the great in form. The yin and yang are the great in force. Tao is great in both. We merely give it the name "Great” because of its greatness. But with a given name,
    it should not be compared with the names for other things. One cannot go on and argue that Tao is something by that name, as we say that dogs and horses are animals by those names. For that would be far off the mark.” 'Within the four points of the compass and above and how do the myriad things take their rise?” asked Little Knowledge. 'The yin and the yang principles act on one another, reflect one another and keep one another in place. The four seasons follow one another in succession, interrelated in their coming and going. Hence arise likes and
    dislikes, and choices and preferences.

    The male and the female mate and the race is continued. Peace and chaos follow one another; fortune breeds misfortune and vice versa. The slow and the quick rub against each other and things are formed and disperse. These are some of the things that we can say about material things and some of the subtle pnnciples that we can put down. All order is bom of a principle, and all rise and decay are interrelated. When something reaches a limit, then it reverses its direction; when the end is reached, the beginning begins. This is all that is evidenced by the material world, all that we know and all that we can say. And after all, our knowledge does not extend beyond the material universe. He who observes the working of Tao does not try to follow a thing to its very end, nor trace it to its very source. There all discussion ends.' (7:4)

    25.3. COMPIETE, ENTIRE AND ALL. The three. Complete, Entire and All differ in name, but are the same in reality. They all indicate the One. Once they roamed about together in the Palace of Nowhere. Did they get together to discuss things and never come to an end? Did they go about doing nothing together, and remain mellow and quiet, and indifferent and free? Did they
    get along well and spend their idle hours together? Free and unfettered is my mind, it reaches out and does not know where it reaches, it returns and does not know where it stops. My mind goes back and forth and does not know where it all ends. It loiters in the sphere of the Great Void, where the great Sage enters and does not know where it leads to. To realize that
    matter is matter is to reach the infinite with matter. Where matter is finite, it is the limitations of finite matter. The limit of the limitless is the limitlessness of the limited. To take the phenomena of rise and fall, growth and decay, it does not regard rise and fall as rise and fall, and it does not regard growth and decay as growth and decay. It does not regard beginning and
    end as beginning and end. It does not regard formation and dispersion as formation and dispersion. (6:3)

    Derek Lin’s commentary

    There is something that is formless, shapeless and non-physical, and yet also complete and perfect. Whatever it is, this "thing" existed before the universe came into being. How silent, tranquil and still! How ethereal, empty and boundless! It is completely independent and self-sufficient. Its nature is eternal and unchanging. Its functions circulate within every level of existence without ever stopping. Because it is the source of all creation, we can consider it to be the mother of all things. I do not know its name; I do not even know that it has a name. In order to identify it, I reluctantly call it the arbitrary name "Tao." If I were forced to describe it, I would have to say it is great beyond compare. Being great, it is always in a state of transition. Being perpetually in motion, it seems to recede far away from us. Being far away, it returns again to us. This great circle is the nature of Tao.

    Therefore, the Tao is great. Heaven and Earth, being manifestations of the Tao, are also great. A leader who manifests the Tao, and can serve as an example for the people, is also great. He or she occupies one of the four aspects of greatness.
  • Tao follows Nature
    Who is to say that the King is not instead Haile Selassie — Arcane Sandwich

    It is, or at least it was. "King" refers to temporal rulers in China, so in Ethiopia and elsewhere, it refers to whoever is in charge there. A lot of the Tao Te Ching is explicitly political.
  • Tao follows Nature
    Who says that it's just poetry? It can be science instead. Be cooperative, instead of intentionally trying to cause a disturbance in this Thread. I am the author of the OP and I am formally requesting you to be less disruptive. In other words, I'm giving you a "yellow card", a "warning", if you will. — Arcane Sandwich

    As we've discussed elsewhere, I think it's reasonable for you to work to keep the discussion on track as laid out in the original post. On the other hand, I don't see what @Janus is doing as intentionally disruptive.
  • Tao follows Nature
    what does the following phrase mean: "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao." — Arcane Sandwich

    This is the heart of what Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, and others were trying to show us. The Tao is the primordial, undivided, unnamable reality. They call it "non-being." As I understand it it isn't even a thing. It doesn't exist until it's named and becomes "being." Being consists of the multiplicity of what we deal with on a daily basis. Horses, Danish pastry, electrons, Donald Trump Jr. They call it "the 10,000 things," which I love. That's @Janus's poetry. Not everyone sees it exactly this way.

    The idea of "naming" is central to Taoism and it's something I've wrestled with. Who does the naming? Naming is dividing, making distinctions, embossing the Tao with human concepts. Both the Tao and the 10,000 things are respected, but they are not the same thing. See what I said previously about returning.
  • Tao follows Nature
    It's about the fact that around 6th-3rd centuries B.C.E. a number of prophets and sages were active, including Pythagoras, Lao Tsu, the Buddha, and others, who set the wheels in motion for what were to become the great cultural formations of India, China and the West. — Wayfarer

    I've always wondered about this. I don't think there was much contact between the east and west 2,500 years ago, so why this coincidence? Perhaps I'm wrong about cross-cultural communication back then.
  • Tao follows Nature
    ↪PoeticUniverse

    I've never read the rubaiyat. I should. I've added it to my list.
  • When you love someone and give to them, should you expect something in return?
    It is my first OP, I would like any suggestions on making it better. — Dmytro

    Welcome to the forum.

    The Lounge is where posts not really related to philosophy or science belong. Lounge posts don't show up on the front page. I think this thread belongs there. Also, a warning, the forum is a bad place to look for advice on personal issues. Many members are socially tone deaf.
  • Tao follows Nature
    The first stanza, in italics, is Edward FitzGerald's transmogrification of Omar Khayyam. The rest are my own, as extensions of the idea of The Eternal Saki. — PoeticUniverse

    Thanks.
  • Tao follows Nature
    If everything that can be said misses the mark then there is no point discussing it. On the other hand how could you know if the mark has been missed if you don't know what it is? — Janus

    The Tao Te Ching is philosophy, metaphysics. What is says is not literally true - as you say, poetry. If it doesn't work for you, that's no surprise. It doesn't work for lots of people. It works for me. When I first read it it grabbed me and pulled me in. In my understanding, many eastern philosophies, including Taoism, are about what goes on inside of us, not external reality. Self-awareness. I will say this - I'm an engineer and a pragmatist and I find the metaphysics of Taoism completely consistent with my understanding of science and reality.

    It seems to me that something that can only be apprehended non-linguistically cannot be spoken about except poetically or allusively. Poetry is always a matter of interpretation with no detreminate meaning, so there cannot be any detreminable "missing of the mark". — Janus

    Yes. This is right.

    OK, so the translations contradict one another. How do you know which is correct, or considering what I said just above, how can there be a correct and incorrect at all? — Janus

    It's true - the Tao Te Ching is not consistent within itself and there are more inconsistencies because it is thought to have been written by different authors over a long period of time - like the Bible. There are many different English translations which sometimes, often, contradict each other. Here's a link to dozens so you can get an idea of the multiplicity.

    https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

    I've read four or five of them and parts of many more. All of this together paints an impressionistic picture of what Lao Tzu is trying to show us. The inconsistencies are, as they say, a feature, not a bug, starting with the first verse - The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

    Are you invoking the phenomenon/ noumenon distinction? — Janus

    It's a similar concept - different in detail and context.

    If you don't understand the language the text was written in, how do you know that the translator avoids a mistake? — Janus

    You don't know German, Latin, or ancient Greek (I assume) but you can still understand Kant, Thomas Aquinas, and Aristotle.
  • Tao follows Nature
    The Permanent Quantum 'Vacuum' Tao rearranges into the temporaries which may persist somewhat until they unarrange and perish, the Tao ever remaining as itself, before, during, and after, as the temporaries are not new substance but directly the Tao quantum fields. — PoeticUniverse

    I'm not sure if you are referring to the Tao as literally the quantum vacuum or as a metaphor. I think taking it literally is mixing up metaphysics and physics.

    What is the source of the poem you included. Is it your own? What can you tell us about it?
  • Tao follows Nature
    ↪Arcane Sandwich

    I forgot - the translation you provided is by Gia-Fu Feng. If I remember correctly, Jane English provided the photographs in the book they wrote together. If I weren't so lazy I would go check on that.
  • Tao follows Nature
    Something mysteriously formed,
    Born before heaven and Earth.
    In the silence and the void,
    Standing alone and unchanging,
    Ever present and in motion.
    Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
    I do not know its name
    Call it Tao.
    For lack of a better word, I call it great.     — Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    I think this is a pretty straightforward summary of the Taoist cosmology.

    Being great, it flows
    It flows far away.
    Having gone far, it returns.     — Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    This is something I've thought about a lot - the idea of returning. This is how I think of it now - The Tao gives rise to the 10,000 things, which then returns to the Tao. That means that this process is taking place continuously and continually. The Tao didn't give rise to the multiplicity of the world once, it does it over and over. It's always doing it. I haven't heard that interpretation elsewhere, so I don't know if others would agree with it.

    Therefore, "Tao is great;
    Heaven is great;
    Earth is great;
    The king is also great."
    These are the four great powers of the universe,
    And the king is one of them.

    Man follows Earth.
    Earth follows heaven.
    Heaven follows the Tao.
    Tao follows what is natural.     — Lao Tzu (Laozi)

    I'm always confused by "Heaven" and "Earth." Sometimes they mean sky and ground; sometimes the home of spirit and of humanity; sometimes yin and yang; sometimes light and dark. I see this as one depiction of the hierarchy of steps between the Tao and the king or humankind. It is presented in different steps in some other verses. As with many other elements in Taoist philosophy, it doesn't make sense to try to attach a specific definition to it. I see it as an impressionistic painting of how the world works. Just sort of soak in it.

    As for "Tao follows what is natural," I'm not sure exactly what Lao Tzu is trying to tell us. I don't see as much significance in it as you do. I haven't sat down and really focused on the different verses in a long time. I probably should.
  • Is China really willing to start a war with Taiwan in order to make it part of China?
    It's understandable, given the nature of incomplete information relative to a situation that involves us. — Arcane Sandwich

    It's not primarily incomplete information. The best informed of us don't know what's going to happen and to get to the position of being a decision maker in these situations you have to have bought into your country's nationalistic ideology.
  • Is China really willing to start a war with Taiwan in order to make it part of China?
    And, like any guess, it could turn out to be wrong. And in fact it has, many times. — Arcane Sandwich

    I find I am almost always wrong when I try to predict what will happen next in politics or foreign affairs. The lesson I take from that is not to do much, which may be a brilliant strategy or a highway to hell.
  • Is China really willing to start a war with Taiwan in order to make it part of China?
    I think the more germaine question is: Will the US abandon Ukraine (& Eastern Europe) to Russian aggression and thereby give the PRC a green light to invade Taiwan without starting a wider (or world) war? :brow: — 180 Proof

    I think the most germane question is "What could possibly go wrong?" The US doesn't seem to have a good record of figuring that out in recent decades. Maybe no one has.
  • Is China really willing to start a war with Taiwan in order to make it part of China?
    Taiwan produces around 90% of the world's most advanced ICs. It is very much in the iinterest of the US and other countries that such manufacturing capabilities are not taken over by China. — wonderer1

    Hey, no fair knowing more than I do. But still, I'm not sure that's a good enough reason to go to war with China. Will China having control of Taiwanese chip manufacturers be more disruptive than a war with the US's active participation? I don't think they have any more interest in the world economy falling apart than we do.

    I've changed my mind - I'm pretty sure it's not a good enough reason.
  • Crises of Modernity
    Nicely put. There's very much a cult of 'things used to be better' from almost every quarter (but frequently for different reasons). Some people preferred things when minorities were silent and oppressed. Others think the past had better values and metaphysical frameworks. We are often said to live in a disenchanted era and everyone from Iain McGilchristt, Jordan Peterson to D. Trump are flogging nostalgia projects, seeking some kind of restoration. — Tom Storm

    I don't think it's all that complicated. At bottom, people's values are and have always been the same - family, community, a decent life. I can't remember where I got this. Maybe from here on the forum.

    To be happy at home, said Johnson, is the end of all human endeavour. As long as we are thinking only of natural values we must say that the sun looks down on nothing half so good as a household laughing together over a meal, or two friends talking over a pint of beer, or a man alone reading a book that interests him; and that all economics, politics, laws, armies, and institutions, save in so far as they prolong and multiply such scenes, are a mere ploughing the sand and sowing the ocean, a meaningless vanity and vexation of spirit. — C.S Lewis
  • Crises of Modernity
    People having a connection to an inner core of value is not the same thing as saying that those core values were themselves inherently correct. — Pantagruel

    Generally, when I hear people complain about the loss of respect for values, they have their own personal values in mind, e.g. a lack of commitment to traditional Christian morality.

    Obviously, as our experience of the universe deepens, our understanding and appreciation of the nature of core values will also evolve. — Pantagruel

    I don't see any sign of that happening. Am I being impatient?
  • Crises of Modernity
    post-modern crisis is our acute awareness of having forgotten our connection with the values traditionally safeguarded in traditional institutions, family, community, and religion. The famous state of "anomie" of Emile Durkheim, the decay of meaning brought on by the disconnection of life from value, the malaise of modern man. — Pantagruel

    You can't convince or coerce people into respect and confidence in "traditional institutions, family, community, and religion," although maybe some people are in the process of trying to do that. The changes are metaphysical - they're about how think the world works and should work - about how we know what we know and what our goals should be - about what's right and wrong. I'm not sure there is any way to go back.

    We should remember that the good old days were not all that good. Slavery, exploitation, and oppression were ok with full support by traditional institutions, family, community and religion. There were at least as many wars then as there are now, although the ones we have now are more dangerous. People died of diseases that are easily treated. Life expectancy has increased dramatically. Were things better then than they are now? Good question.

    Confucianism, for example, sits right at this juncture of the material and the moral. It does not appeal to a god for justification (nor offer salvation). But it does seek to define morality as it can be best actualized in the here and now. In this, it is strongly akin to Stoicism. Values made real. — Pantagruel

    I don't know a lot about Confucianism or ancient Chinese history and philosophy, but I do have a strong interest in Taoism, which, as I understand it, was developed in opposition to the rigidity and coercion of Confucianism. Taoism is often likened to Stoicism in that it seeks virtue not in institutions but in nature and will. By the way, I don't know a lot about Stoicism either.
  • Is China really willing to start a war with Taiwan in order to make it part of China?
    Probably, but I don't think it matters. Taiwan is not important enough to US national interests to risk going to war there. I guess the best argument in favor of our continued support is that it will undermine the US's credibility to dump Taiwan.
  • Currently Reading
    ↪javi2541997

    In whatever language you read, the breadth and depth of your interest, commitment, and understanding is impressive. You also read really fast.
  • Ways of Dealing with Jihadism
    Wouldn't it be great that the US simply didn't mess around so much? It's a nice idea, but then we have to understand that not everything the US has done has been wrong. — ssu

    Yes, my reaction to the idea of just getting out was a positive one. It seemed that, as Randy Newman put it...
    No one likes us
    I don't know why
    We may not be perfect
    But heaven knows we try
    But all around
    Even our old friends put us down.     — Randy Newman - Political Science

    It also seems like many of our expeditions end badly, damage our national security, or both. I worry especially about how we have put ourselves at risk - right now I'm particularly concerned about Taiwan and Israel and maybe Ukraine. You and I recently discussed how some people around the world see US's role as a positive one. That and other world events have made me moderate my attitude some. If only we would stop tripping over our own feet so much.

    Problem is, there are still a lot of people here who want us to keep taking on the "superpower" role. You see a lot of this here on the forum - people willing to risk world war for little potential gain beyond their own jingoistic pleasure. You see the same attitude from many American politicians. They want us to invade Iran or Cuba (or Greenland and Panama).

    First and foremost, the objective has been to create Islamic revolution in the Muslim population itself, the Ummah, and to overthrow the secular governments (at least in the view of the radicals themselves) now controlling the Muslim states and pave way for the righteous Caliphate. A way to get to this is to attack the West. — ssu

    Are you saying that jihadis would still target the US if we stopped our ineffective meddling in the Muslim world, especially the Middle East? That strikes me as unlikely, but you are more knowledgeable about world affairs than I.

    Was it right to defend South Korea against a Russian sponsored North Korean attack? — ssu

    I'm not sure, in spite of your affection for K-pop. I think we did it for the same reasons we went into Vietnam - to resist the USSR and China. Whatever would have happened in a unified Korea, I think the world would be a more stable place if we had stayed out. The same with Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Taiwan...

    We can already see what happens when the US has lost interest: other regional actors take it's place. Just look at how active in Africa have the Gulf States have become (in Libya and Sudan). Look at the actions of Turkey. Or how Saudi-Arabia went to war with Yemen and nearly went to war with a GCC member, Qatar. — ssu

    At least from the US perspective, who cares? It's not our job, shouldn't be our job, to stop all the bad things in the world.

    So I think there is a role for the US to play in the Middle East, but more of leadership role than unitary actions. — ssu

    Maybe... I'm not sure.

    Which regimes you define to be repressive Islamic regimes? Do note that Islam is far closer to the state as Mohammed himself was the first leader of the Muslim state. Hence it's no wonder that Arab states, especially those which are monarchies, do have state religion. Do you put into this category Saudi-Arabia? How about the UAE or Egypt? What about Jordan? And how about the wavering states of Lebanon and Syria? — ssu

    Good question. What comes to mind is pre-revolution Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, pre-war Iraq. Tell me I'm wrong. As I said, I think your understanding of conditions is better than mine, although I think your values are different - Europe-centric.

    this has far more to do with domestic politics in the US than is about foreign policy and not because of the Jewish American voters, but because of the millions of Christian Evangelists who see supporting Israel as a religious matter. — ssu

    I agree and it creeps me out. But I also think there is more to it than that. I think older American's, including Biden and other recent presidents, have a sincere ingrained belief we have a moral and political responsibility to support Israel.
  • Ways of Dealing with Jihadism
    ↪ssu

    Really interesting. Thanks for the context.

    I wasn't clear to me from what you wrote, do you disagree with the steps I described, think they don't go far enough, or something else? Keep in mind that the goal I've set is not to solve the problem of jihadism but just to make it no longer the US's problem..
  • Currently Reading
    Melancholia, nostalgia, memories... all I love in literature. — javi2541997

    Do you read everything in Spanish or do you sometimes read in English?
  • X's Grok search parameters
    ↪Mapping the Medium

    I wonder if @Pierre-Normand has anything interesting to say about this. He’s our expert on online artificial intelligence.
  • Ways of Dealing with Jihadism
    I hope you are just agreeing with him because you took an adversarial position towards the OP in the first place. NOS is being really unreasonable here, as usual. — ToothyMaw

    I didn't take "an adversarial position." I disagreed with what you wrote. And I agreed with what NOS4A2 wrote in the specific post I was responding to.

    Besides that, questioning a person's motives is not a legitimate argument.
  • Ways of Dealing with Jihadism
    ↪NOS4A2

    You and I don't agree very often, but this is exactly right.
  • Ways of Dealing with Jihadism
    Islamic extremism is almost entirely a US-Israeli creation - the product of decades of meddling, — Tzeentch

    I'm skeptical this is true. As I've mentioned in a previous post, I think your statement would be correct about the Middle East and our own status as a target for terrorism, but Islam has enough internal discord to explain a lot of other conflicts.
  • Ways of Dealing with Jihadism
    Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso, Nigeria, Chad, CAR, etc. Southeast Asia has had its share of Jihadi groups too. — Count Timothy von Icarus

    As I asked previously, why should we get involved with those areas? What possible good could we do?
  • Ways of Dealing with Jihadism
    That's a big if. — RogueAI

    I think it's a small to medium sized if. If we can extricate the west from the religious and political conflicts within the Islamic world, admittedly a tall order, I don't see why they would care about us anymore.
  • Ways of Dealing with Jihadism
    Counterpoint: if the US and the rest of the region hadn't rapidly stood up a massive air campaign against IS as they advanced into the Baghdad suburbs in 2014 (and provided significant ground support) it seems fairly obvious that IS would have taken most of Iraq, all of Syria, and likely expanded into Lebanon by 2016. — Count Timothy von Icarus

    The creation and expansion of ISIS was a direct result of the destruction of government and military infrastructure in Iraq by the US. We were stepping in to solve a problem we created. Let's stop causing those problems to begin with.

    Many of the countries with the largest Jihadi problems are hostile to Israel and have essentially no footprint in the Middle East. Likewise, Iran, Hezbollah, and other "Shia kufar," threatened with Salafi Jihad are not exactly huge fans of Israel. — Count Timothy von Icarus

    Which other targets of jihad are you talking about? If it's not us or our allies, why should we get involved. Let them work it out for themselves.
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