It is rude to start a discussion and then not actively participate.

You’re still not really paying attention to my argument. Expansion of NATO started in the 1990s. You’re talking about today’s situation which is, if my supposition is correct, the result of that action at least in part.

No. Just different focus. — Patterner

My understanding of those lines is that, the moment you try to speak of or name the Tao, you have automatically failed. Because words are limited, and limiting, while the Tao is infinite. Any attempt to use words to describe the Tao is an attempt to limit it. Which is impossible, so you cannot be talking about the Tao. — Patterner

I don’t see that your understanding contradicts mine.

it's not so much that you're being ignored. — jorndoe

As I indicated, it wasn't that I was being ignored, it was that my argument was. My argument - Russia is paranoid, we knew it, and we should have worked to avoid provoking it. Your argument - Russia's paranoia is not justified, which is irrelevant.

That made me think of this. It's from Woody Allen's 1966 "What's up Tiger Lily" and is badly edited.

https://clip.cafe/whats-up-tiger-lily-1966/this-shepard-wongs-home/

What I mean by this is that we draw a false distinction between that of real and fake. The matrix did exist, as a server in a computer. The matrix's computer existed in the physical world, and by proxy, the matrix itself existed in the physical world. The term "fake" is misleading because everything exists in a sense. Any thought you have exists as neurons in your brain. If we live in a simulation, it would also be the real world, because the simulation exists in the real world. — Hyper

Welcome.

This is something that get's discussed fairly often here on the forum, generally without consensus, because everyone has a different idea of what "real" means. I am interested in Taoist philosophy. The first verse of the Tao Te Ching, one of the founding texts, says "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name." My understanding of the meaning of those lines is that things don't really become "real" until we name, conceptualize, them. That seems consistent with what you have written. Imaginary things are as real as material things because they are both brought into existence as concepts.

On the forum, getting everyone to agree on the definition of the central ideas of a discussion is often neglected and often impossible. That is the cause of a lot of derailed discussions here. I think we'll probably see that in this discussion.

Try living in a picture of a house for a week, and get back to us. — unenlightened

Yo mamma is so fat, her picture weighs 10 pounds.

We’re just going around in circles. I am all done.

You haven't made things worse. They would be far worse without you. Remember that the US is actually very popular in Europe. — ssu

Worse for you, perhaps and other small nations under the USSR's thumb. The US is now juking around in Europe with the military of a country that has 10,000 nuclear warheads.

Was then defending South Korea from Northern attack worth it? — ssu

I don't know.

So just where do you put the line for defending democracy and your allies? — ssu

But you weren't our allies. You were countries that we were friendly with but with which we had no binding military relationships. Do you expect us to send US troops to Finland if Russia decides to invade?

people genuinely talked about the prospect of Russia joining NATO. Unfortunately, there is a route of application to the organization, which Russia wouldn't take. — ssu

There was never any realistic chance of Russia joining NATO.

Russia simply then should have been controlled by democrats, not KGB people. — ssu

Yes. Wouldn't that be nice. What a surprise it didn't happen. Not.

...do you think that without NATO and US involvement, that Russia would have been peaceful and not tried to get it's empire back? — ssu

I'm not sure what would have happened. I don't think you are either. It was never realistic that we could somehow keep countries bordering Russia outside the Russian sphere of interest. It certainly doesn't work that way in the US. We have the Monroe Doctrine and haven't shied away from sticking our noses in our neighbor's affairs.

I think people who want to be independent ought to have their independence and simply the UN charter ought to be respected. — ssu

Sure, and I think Kamala Harris should be the president elect of the US.

Just like Poland was risking war with Germany in the late 1930's. Just like Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Norway were also risking war with Germany, for that matter. And not only did they risk it, they got the war Hitler. — ssu

When I said "risk" I meant risk to the US. What is the US's vital national interest in Taiwan? What was it in 1948?

I don't think you and I are going to get any closer to agreement. I'm all for leaving it at that.

US usually acts without at all thinking of the objectives of other actors. They don't matter to you. — ssu

Speaking for myself, it's not that they don't matter, it's that they don't matter enough to undermine our own national security. Your countries' motivation was to make things better. The US's should have been not to make them worse.

Hence the US has it's own narrative of what is going on that is different from the reality on the ground. This creates a fundamental inconsistency, when the other side doesn't at all have the objectives the US thinks it has. — ssu

I agree that the US had the wrong narrative in Vietnam. It just wasn't worth it. Millions of people died. I also agree we had the wrong narrative in expanding NATO, but that doesn't mean the narrative we should have had is the same as yours. Your narrative might have been right for you, but it wasn't right for us.

This shows how absolutely delusional US leaders can be in believing their own narrative. — ssu

Agreed. That's what my position in this discussion is based on. Our leaders were delusional when we expanded NATO.

People forget what the discourse around NATO was in the 1990's was like. I do remember. It was that NATO was an old relic that had to renew itself to basically be a global actor (policeman). The Cold War was over. Having territorial defense and a large reservist army was WRONG, outdated, relic from a bygone era! — ssu

Are you suggesting this is a good reason for expanding NATO?

Yet for the countries applying to NATO is was Russia, Russia and Russia. It never was anything else. — ssu

Of course it was, and that is understandable.

This is totally and deliberately forgotten and ignored by those going with Kremlin's line, that the objective was to poke Russia. The US didn't think about Russia. Russia was done, it couldn't fight it's way out of a paper bag as it had severe problems just with Chechnya. That was the thinking at that time. — ssu

Saying the US should have acted consistent with our own national interest, including to promote stability in Europe, rather than the interests of nations formerly in the Russian sphere is not "going with Kremlin's line."

no you didn't know it. This is pure hindsight. — ssu

There was no excuse for not knowing. Lot's of people in the US did and said so. Even I knew it at the time. It was obvious to anyone who wasn't blinded by ideology.

Why then thumb your noses at China?

Just then leave China alone. Why all the fuss about Taiwan? — ssu

I agree completely. Taiwan is not worth war with a country with a huge military and nuclear weapons. I feel the same way about Taiwan that I do about Finland. No, that's not true, I feel a lot more sympathy and common cause for the people of Europe. Taiwan is a fake country occupied by the losers in the civil war in China with delusions of grandeur. The US should never have staked its "reputation" on supporting it.

There ought to be consistency in your actions. When the political discourse in the US isn't accurate about the situation abroad, then this creates a fundamental problem: what the US president says to be the objectives, will really be the objectives of the state and the US armed forces. Now, if that isn't close to the reality on the ground and is made up propaganda, because it's just something that reaffirms popular beliefs that aren't fixed in the real world, you will continue to lose. — ssu

Again, I agree. The difference is that I think it is a good argument for my position rather than yours.

You guys keep ignoring my argument. I’m done with this discussion.

Sure, look up how WWI started and how WWII ended. If starting a war, losing it, and getting invaded counts as "being invaded," then Germany was certainly invaded by Russia (twice in the 20th century), not to mentioned partitioned by it and turned into a puppet state for half a century. — Count Timothy von Icarus

As I said, previously:

I didn't claim Russia was an innocent victim, only that they had a well justified fear of invasion. It wasn't a secret. US and NATO policy makers knew about it. — T Clark

no denying in what Napoleon and Hitler attempted. — ssu

And not just Germany and France. Also the Mongol horde and Ottoman empire. All these were existential threats to the integrity of European Russia.

Close, but no cigar. I live in Finland. — ssu

That displays my ignorance. I thought Finland was considered one of the Baltic states. Pardon if that is considered an insult. It wasn't intended to be.

The fact is that if the applicant countries themselves wouldn't have been active, NATO enlargement wouldn't have happened...For the applicants their reason to join NATO was Russia. — ssu

From your point of view, I can see this is important, but from the perspective of US national security it shouldn't have been the main consideration. After the dissolution of the USSR, any expectation that Russia would give up it's influence, even hegemony, in the region was unrealistic. We knew this, but American triumphalism won out over common sense.

One also should understand that in NATO there's Article 1, that member countries refrain from using violence at each other, which is important. Hence for example Greece and Turkey haven't had a border war. — ssu

That's nice, but not a good enough reason, given the predictable consequences.

You do understand then that many other countries, like the Baltic States, would have been treated the same way as Ukraine and Georgia by Russia and likely Russian military bases would be back in the Baltic states, if these countries wouldn't have used the window of opportunity they had. — ssu

Again, I don't fault the various countries for making the decisions they did. I just think that thumbing our noses at Russia was a dangerous idea. From the point of view of an American, it seems like results of these actions include the invasion of Ukraine. I'm not certain that's a realistic assumption on my part, but it sure looks that way.

The Baltic States wouldn't be independent and so charming that they now are if it wasn't for NATO memership. And is that for you think irrelevant? — ssu

Not irrelevant, but not enough.

I personally view the reason for this is the large pro-Israeli Evangelist vote in the US. — ssu

Yes. What an odd attitude. It's because they see the State of Israel and it's modern wars as signs of the end of days, Armageddon. Pretty creepy. If I were Israel, it would make me nervous.

Ok, but several of those "invasions," are counter invasions in wars Russia started. Particularly, they are former colonies/conquests of Russia fighting for independence or fighting off Russian attempts to recolonize them, and in some cases Russia had carried out sizable genocides against those peoples in living memory. In WWI, Russia mobilized first (Germany last), and invaded Germany first, they just lost. The "Continuation War," is the continuation of the Russian attempt to reconquer Finland, as it reconquered Poland and other lands with its military ally... Nazi Germany. Crimean War? Also kicked off by Russia invading its neighbor. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I didn't claim Russia was an innocent victim, only that they had a well justified fear of invasion. It wasn't a secret. US and NATO policy makers knew about it.

Second, you could probably generate lists of equal or
even longer length for Germany or France, on which Russia's name would appear as "invader." — Count Timothy von Icarus

Is that true? I doubt it. I'll let you do the homework.

Definitely - and one far more nuanced than even this one, imo. Thank you for that. — AmadeusD

Even better - let's find non-political philosophical questions to discuss.

NATO isn't seeking to take over countries. Countries seek to be part of NATO for defense and have to qualify (which can take some years). — jorndoe

Given their history, it's hard to find fault with Russia for not believing that. We didn't when Russia moved it's military into Cuba. Heck, I don't even believe it. It's a political attack on Russia backed up by a massive armed force.

For a country the size and geography of Russia it might be easy enough to list all kinds of "hostile countries" in the vicinity. — jorndoe

As I noted, Russia is historically paranoid about invasion, but as they say, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. This is from Wikipedia - Invasion of Russia.

• Mongol invasion of Kievan Rus' (1237–1242), a series of invasions that resulted in the Rus' states becoming vassals of the Golden Horde.
• Livonian campaign against Rus' (1240–1242), an unsuccessful Teutonic invasion of the Novgorod and Pskov Republics, in order to convert them to Catholicism.
• Russo-Crimean Wars (1570–1572), an Ottoman invasion that penetrated Russia and destroyed Moscow.
• Polish–Muscovite War (1609–1618), Poland gained Severia and Smolensk.
• Ingrian War (1610–1617), a Swedish invasion which captured Novgorod and Pskov.
• Swedish invasion of Russia (1708–1709), an unsuccessful Swedish invasion, as part of the Great Northern War (1700–1721).
• French invasion of Russia (1812), an unsuccessful invasion by Napoleon's French Empire and its allies, as part of the Napoleonic Wars (1803–1815).
• Crimean War (1853–1856), a series of conflicts between the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, the French Empire, Sardinia, and the Russian Empire, including an Allied invasion of the Crimean Peninsula.
• Japanese invasion of Sakhalin (1905), an invasion and annexation by the Japanese, as part of the Russo-Japanese War (1904–1905).
• Eastern Front (World War I) (1914–1918), Russia was forced to cede Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic states to Germany as the Russian Empire collapsed.
• Caucasus campaign (1914–1918), a series of conflicts between the Russian Empire, its various successor states, and the Ottoman Empire during World War I.
• Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War (1918–1925) and the contemporaneous Polish–Soviet War (1918/9–1921), the Polish occupation of Belarus and West Ukraine.
• Japanese intervention in Siberia (1918–1922), an occupation of the Russian Far East by Japanese soldiers during the Russian Civil War (1917–1923).
• Operation Barbarossa (1941), an unsuccessful invasion of the Soviet Union led by Nazi Germany that started the Eastern Front (World War II) of 1941–1945.
• Continuation War (1941–1944), an unsuccessful German-Finnish invasion of the Soviet Union, as part of World War II.
• Kantokuen (1941), an aborted plan for a major Japanese invasion of the Russian Far East during World War II.
• Operation Unthinkable (1945), a proposed contingency plan for an Anglo-American invasion of the Soviet Union developed by the British Chiefs of Staff during the later stages of World War II.
• War in Dagestan (1999), a repulsed Chechen invasion of Dagestan.
• Kursk Oblast incursion (2024), an ongoing August invasion of Russia's Kursk Oblast by the Ukrainian Armed Forces (AFU).

I can look at this from a different angle as my summer cottage is very close to the Russian border. — ssu

Do you live in the Baltics?

Please understand that the US isn't almighty, it's just one actor in Europe. The World doesn't circle around the US. Russia itself is the really big actor here. The Soviet leadership avoided the largest wars when the USSR collapsed, but the problem was that Russia knew just one thing, that it was an Empire. It has all these minorities, — ssu

Living where you do, you may know more about this than I do. I remember back in the early 1990s when Bill Clinton and the rest of NATO started expanding NATO. Even back then I thought it was a graceless response to a world changing action.

If there was a theoretical window of opportunity to link Russia into Europe, it would have been immediately when the Soviet Union collapsed. Yet that would have needed larger than life politicians both in Moscow and Washington DC, but those political Houdini's didn't exist. — ssu

I don't necessarily think we should have "linked Russia into Europe." I just think it was a big mistake to move NATO right up to Russia's borders. We reacted very aggressively to Russian weapons in Cuba back in the 1960s. Why would we expect to Russia to feel differently? What benefit did the west get out of it?

NATO enlargement is one of Putin's lines, but so is the artificiality of the state of Ukraine and it being natural of Ukraine being part of Russia. — ssu

It always seemed to me that was just a rationalization for political and propaganda purposes. Maybe I'm wrong.

Also please understand that key players in the NATO enlargement were the new countries themselves. — ssu

I'm sure that's true, but that's not a good enough, or even very good, reason for us to agree to let them in. For us to tie up our military into riskier entangling alliances made it more likely that we would end up in a war with Russia. That would be a very bad thing. A very, very bad thing.

Hence it was for the "near abroad" countries this brief opportunity to get out of Russia's stranglehold. — ssu

Again, that's not a good enough reason for us to act. We need to look after our own interests. Expansion of the EU allows for greater cohesion in Europe without getting the military involved.

Bob Ross likely wanted to stir up a heated debate, luckily didn't get banned. — ssu

I found his logic disturbing. Stronger than disturbing. But I don't see that he violated any of the guidelines. Just espousing unpopular opinions shouldn't be a good enough reason for moderator action.

The last true excess were the neocons, who didn't themselves believe at first they got the power. — ssu

There are a lot of hawks still around. I kept expecting Israel to attack Iran with strong US military support.

A Dolchstoss given to Ukraine with Europe just watching from the side just what the hell happened is the worst outcome. But that hasn't happened. — ssu

I have a fantasy that Europe will step up to take a bigger military and political role in the world, especially in Europe.

What issue? — kudos

My personal understanding of morality.

you are conveying my point better than I could have done myself. — kudos

We use different language, so I guess I misunderstood.

Any reasonable person can see that it is impossible and pointless to avoid the universal determinations of evil and bad 'in-themselves.' However, if one subscribes to a less respectable sort of moral subjectivity, it is easy to avoid. — kudos

I have a different take on morality than others I have discussed it with here on the forum. Please believe I am not joking or being sarcastic when I say I do not accept "universal determinations of evil and bad 'in-themselves.'" For me, morality is the set of rules I use for my own behavior. I don't apply those rules to others. Rules that apply to people in general, myself and others, I call social control. They are the rules society at all scales applies to promote acceptable behavior and prevent disruptive or harmful behavior.

I don't think a more detailed discussion of this issue is appropriate here.

If it's how we handle that conflict that matters, then you must agree that the two have something to do with one another. Otherwise, how could it matter at all? — kudos

"Moral indecency" and "darker side" are not terms, or the kinds of terms, I use to describe human behavior. That's what I mean when I say you and I have a different understanding of human nature.

In the richest country on earth, it’s scandalous that we don’t have the same healthcare as Britain or Canada. — Mikie

And they all do it for about half what it costs here.

But at some point works like that became closer to how I see the world, in terms of worldview and metaphysics, than the everyday pretheoretical intuitions I live in. If whenever I open my mouth fairytales fall out, I may as well learn as many as possible. — fdrake

As I noted, if something this unusual catches your attention, I'm interested to see what it has to say.

You would agree that being in actuality is not always positive. Sometimes we must acknowledge that harm must come to others as a formal cost of being, some things must be taken away from others, and some things that another may not want must occur — in addition to their opposites. It is recalcitrant to deny this in hopes of defending the right not to bear it or be responsible for it. — kudos

You wrote:

If you are alive and breathing, chances are you have some moral indecency in you, one should be reminded of this from time to time. Whoever you are, you probably have a darker side of your personality and it needs to be fed regularly or else it will begin to hurt you from within. — kudos

I responded:

Your opinion of human nature is different from mine. — T Clark

The fact that living life unavoidably brings us into conflict with other people has nothing to do with "moral indecency" or a "darker side." It's how we handle that conflict that matters.

A really good, comprehensive summary. Discouraging. I can't think of much to say. I don't have anything near an answer. How can we go through Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan and all the chaos and catastrophe associated with them and still think there is value in these types of policies?

One thing I have thought about a lot, starting in the early 1990s - Gorbachev gave us the gift of a new eastern Europe and western Asia. How did we handle it? Even knowing Russia's historical paranoia about being surrounded and invaded, we immediately started expanding NATO right up to it's borders. Now it's enclosed by hostile countries backed by the US and western European militaries. No wonder Putin is furious. We blew it. We were naive and thoughtless, but then, as your summary shows, we always seem to be.

The OP brings to mind the ongoing discussion here on the forum - "In Support of Western Supremacy, Nationalism, and Imperialism." That thread displays the US's superpower mania at a scale that dwarfs even our past adventures. The fact that that kind of fantasy still holds power always confounds me. The worst part is that the desire for military solutions to political problems is still strong in mainstream political leadership.

I've been on a Cybernetic Culture Research Institute kick the last few months. — fdrake

I had never heard of the Institute, so I looked it up. I also downloaded "Alien Theory." I can't imagine I'll read it all, but I at least wanted to check it out, not so much out of specific interest, but more because I wanted to see what a mild-mannered statistician saw in such a goofy unusual subject.

You and I don't have enough common ground to discuss this. As I noted, I'll look for non-political discussions that we can both participate in.

It seems like you don't really want to have a productive dialogue; — Bob Ross

You and I will never have a productive political dialogue. You propose invading India to force our way of life on them. You support a man you acknowledge tried to overthrow the government of the US. I'll look for ways to have better conversations with you in more philosophical discussions.

I think the Democratic Party would find this essentially impossible. First, because the primary system in the US, where candidates are selected by relatively quite small numbers of older/wealthier/more radical voters invariably pushes both parties away from the views of the median voter and towards the fringes.

But also because the Democrats core wealthy urban constituency, who make up most of its leadership class, have come to frame almost all of its core issues as continuations of the US Civil Rights movement (similarly, in Europe decolonization is the mold). There is no compromise here. Opponents are simply on the wrong side of history. — Count Timothy von Icarus

There is truth in what you say and maybe you're right. That doesn't change my prescription, even if it turns out to be unrealistic. I just get so furious listening to my liberal friends spewing their contempt on people we have to figure out a way to get along with.

The problem is that it isn't clear that issues like migration fit this mold, at least not in the wider public's view. Increasing migration currently polls worse for the US as a whole then Harris fared in many rural, overwhelmingly white Southern counties... yet elite opinion is at total variance here, and this is the common thread of success for the far-right across the Western world. — Count Timothy von Icarus

This is something I left off my list that I should have included. I think Democrats have to figure out a way to walk the line on immigration. Biden tried to do this over the past year, but the Republicans put the kibosh on that.

We’re talking about Trump, not anti-gay, anti-abortion zealots. — Joshs

I think Trump is the glue that holds Republicans, who hate each other, together.

I'll be interested to see what happens when Trump is finally gone - whether the Republican party can hold on or whether it will fall apart.

If you believe that, do you realize you’re making the same claim about the basis of MAGA that they make about the basis of your support for liberal candidates? Trump supporters like to argue that a small cabal of progressive zealots (Hillary Clinton, George Soros, Bill Gates) and the liberal press under their control manipulate Democratic voters for their own ends, that support for Trumpism is vastly wider than the liberal press claims it to be because of tampering with the vote by Democratic operatives. — Joshs

That's the whole point of my OP - to stop treating our political opponents with disrespect. Whatever I think of the political realities of where Republican support comes from, there's no need to put that on the table when we talk with them.

How do you expect to convince people of your Democratic views if you are incapable of defending them? — Bob Ross

This thread was not aimed at convincing people of my Democratic views. See the OP.

Policies doesn't really matter, it's how the politics are communicated to the people. Democrats don't understand how to do that and get lost in how to talk to people. — Christoffer

As I noted, I like Sanders. I think he'd make an... interesting president. I'd certainly vote for him. I still think centrist candidates have a better chance of winning.

The fundamental problem in the US is that no center or right wing policies will fix the actual problems that the US is facing. — Christoffer

I'm not sure any policies can solve the problems we've got coming up over the period of my children's lifetimes. As I've said, I think Biden and his policies were the best choice for the US.

It isn't. — AmadeusD

A discussion for a different thread.

They are historical grievances. They literally not in issue. — AmadeusD

There's no sense in arguing about this in this thread. I have a hard time dealing with people who think that minorities, especially black people, somehow now have a level playing field in our society. It's not that is was historical, it's that it continues.

What do you think he would do in a second term? — Mr Bee

More support for American workers and industry.

I am not ultra-nationalist; but I am a nationalist. I think you are conflating the two, but maybe I am wrong. — Bob Ross

Your recent thread "In Support of Western Supremacy, Nationalism, and Imperialism" makes it clear this is not true.

Says a supporter of the party that tried to overthrow the results of a free and fair election for president in 2020

Trump did try to do that, and I do not approve of that. — Bob Ross

I can't think of a response to that. You live in a different moral world than I do.

The party that refused to consider a Democratic Supreme Court nominee for purely partisan reasons.

I am fine with that: — Bob Ross

Ditto.

The only one that makes historical and contextual sense is banning ownership for certain convicted criminals (like violent felons): the constitution was written in terms of what reasonably law-abiding citizens would have as protections. — Bob Ross

As I noted, not all conservatives feel that way.

I am saying that there are situations where countries have a duty to subject other countries to their values—e.g., North Korea, Talibanian Afghanistan, etc. — Bob Ross

Yes, I heard what you said. It could not be further from pragmatism.

Your opinion of my attitude is not really of interest to me.

The biggest problem with democrats is that they are unable to market and speak to the working class. They aren't creating a political core that can be gathered around, there are no slogans or easily summed policies and democrats openly fight among themselves about policies that mean nothing to the regular voter. — Christoffer

Agreed. Part of the point of my OP is that there are extraneous issues, which I described, which are preventing creating such a political core.

I think the opposite is true, the problem is actually that democrats need to get away from the center because it doesn't offer anything. The working class have problems or feel that they have problems that need some solutions and the center liberal position will mostly just perpetuate things as they've always been. — Christoffer

I don't agree with this. I think Biden's domestic policies have been the right ones, but they have been overshadowed by the social and political issues I described in my OP. Even if you're right, I don't think that undermines the value of what I proposed.

The people want support in their life. The politics Sanders stand for is basically to install basic living conditions found in Scandinavia, or at least half way to it. If the democrats actually took a step to the left rather than waddling around in the center (as they've already have been for long now), then they would actually show people solutions. — Christoffer

I like Sanders and I like a lot of his policies. You and I just disagree about what policy approach is the right one given political conditions in the US now.

Of course Biden was exactly the right candidate for you. You’re a liberal. I’m saying a liberal like you or Biden or Harris can’t win unless they move far enough to the right that they become an old line conservative in the mold of G.W.Bush or Mitt Romney. — Joshs

The whole point of my OP is that this isn't true, so, clearly, you and I disagree.

I think you’re making a colossal mistake in judgement. American right wing populism isnt driven from the top down, but from the bottom up. It’s a grass roots movement driven by your neighbors outside of your urban bubble. — Joshs

The majority of Americans, including in conservative states, support same sex marriage. Electorates in Missouri, Ohio, Kentucky, Kansas - conservative states - voted to remove abortion restrictions or prevent changes in current law. The Republican party is not driven from the bottom up. It has been taken over by a relatively small group of rabid ideologues whose policies don't match those of their constituents.

I focused on working people, but the heart of the issue isn’t workers, it’s a socially traditionalist value system shared by workers and wealthy people, those without college educations as well as those with advanced degrees, who are mostly from lower population density regions, with occasional exceptions like Trump. The main issue is what I call social I.Q. — Joshs

Sure, social conservatism is an important aspect of the Republican electorate, but we don't need all Republican voters. A large percentage of Republicans don't support Trump because of traditional values.