Luther said some nasty things about Jews and Catholics but he did use the Hebrew Bible as the basis for his translations and clearly had some knowledge of Judaism that he used to demarcate from Christianity. Within the nastiness emerges some truth. I noticed some theological overlap with Jewish tradition in his writings. He makes some sharp inferences. I am of a very split mind about him.

Yes, the anti-Judaism in the gospels is something all Christians must wrestle with.

There have been messianic movements in Judaism. Amy-Jill Levine speculates that Jews may have been praying to or through Jesus. I don't think we'll ever know for sure. I can't even fully determine whether he kept kosher. For Paul it all hangs on the resurrection.

Israel cannot negotiate with a party that insists that Jerusalem is part of the Islamic ummah. From chapter 7 of the 2017 Hamas charter:

"7. Palestine is at the heart of the Arab and Islamic Ummah and enjoys a special status. Within Palestine there exists Jerusalem, whose precincts are blessed by Allah."

Well, you did have the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, so things have gone quite similarly in that case. — ssu

Not similar. In the Warsaw uprising it was the resistance that led it, not the puppet authorities. The Warsaw ghetto uprising occurred because the Jews knew they were facing imminent deportation and death. Their leaders were not powerful millionaires/billionaires with ties to powerful nations. Every single person in that ghetto was essentially powerless & facing imminent death. They knew they were going to die, it was just a matter of how.

If the power dynamics were similar, you'd have IDF officers able to walk into the offices of Hamas and PA leaders and issue them orders. They be able to physically assault them without consequence and order their deaths.

And of course the goal was survival, not seizing Germany and declaring it Jewish & imposing Jewish religious law on Germany.

A genuine forever war would be the apt term here. — ssu

Which is why the victory must be complete and Hamas completely replaced.

It was lucky to be done in that one case. Try it repeatedly for the past year.

We'll never know how many innocent civilians died. All the Hamas killed in the al-shifa operation are added to the death count.

Meh... I was hesitant about writing that last line.

Anyway, if the Palestinian territories were actually like a Nazi ghetto then both the PA and Hamas would be unquestionably subordinate to the Israeli government and Israel would be able to replace them as they like.

We have the answer: obliterate the hospital, and everyone in it. Since they’re non-human anyway, it doesn’t matter much. — Mikie

Israel actually sent in special commando troops to al-shifa hospital. I don't believe any civilians were killed during the operation miraculously.

I have nothing against Jews in Israel. — Benkei

I'm not accusing you of that. I'm saying that you (and many others) seem to have something against the notion of a Jewish state. You (and others) simply do not like the idea of a state having a Jewish character so your impression of Israel is reflexively negative before any news gets reported.

Also, to apply your fantastic moral compass to all those Jews killed in ww2: "sorry, they lost!" — Benkei

Land gained during a defensive war is not the same as a policy of systematic murder. Israel is currently conducting polio vaccinations & assisting food distribution in Gaza; not conducting mass shootings or bringing in gas vans.

My impression of Marcion is pretty negative and I'm glad his ideas were declared heretical.

Severing the God of the OT from Jesus seems to me both anti-Jewish and historically/theologically dishonest. It's anti-Jewish for obvious reasons: It makes out the Jews to be worshipping a deficient God. It's historically/theologically dishonest because who was the Jewish Jesus praying to in the gospels? Whose words/commandments is he quoting in the gospels to espouse his theology to his followers? From a Christian perspective, I don't know how Christians are to understand their own spiritual history or understand who Jesus was without the guidance of the God of the OT and his prophets. The idea of the messiah is spoken by the Old Testament God to David on David's deathbed.

Yeah, I guess nothing can be done. Genocides are inevitable. — Mikie

General Mikie, you still haven't answered my question. What to do about the rockets being fired from the hospital?

Some like Geert or Trump will support Israel regardless, others will oppose regardless. Other countries will support or oppose Israel based on alliances. It would be nice to gain broader support, but I wouldn't take that at the cost of severe national security compromises for Israel. I get the sense that no matter what Israel does - short of self-destruction - folks like you wouldn't support it because you just don't like the idea of a Jewish state.

So would you not attack a hospital that an enemy is firing out of? Is the hospital invulnerable then? What do you do? Guess we just can't go to war then. No bombing weapons factories.

There were also Jewish Christians who nonetheless followed Jewish law into the fifth century. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Of which Jerome wrote "Desiring to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither the one nor the other."

Why do you think I'm mad?

I'm not angry.

I maintain that Israel does not intentionally murder civilians. But if Israel insisted on zero civilian deaths ever, Hamas could just fight with babies strapped to them and they could be invincible. Hamas has been seen fighting behind little old ladies with walkers.

In targeting Hamas, civilians may die. Hamas operates from within civilian areas.

Gaza Ministry of Health makes zero distinction between civilians and Hamas. All we have is a number.

It is wrong to intentionally kill civilians.

It is estimated 250,000 German children died in the Second World War. What's your excuse for that? How can you stomach that?

A bullet is a bullet whether it is fired by a 16 year old or a 30 year old.

How many of those are Hamas?

Hamas uses child soldiers.

It remains interesting that aggressors and oppressors keep pretending they're victims. — Benkei

Yes, like the Arabs who started the independence war by attacking Israel immediately after it declared statehood and then cry about nakhba day. Sorry they failed in their annihilation attempt. So sad.

You're not going to find sympathy from me, sorry. The Middle East is a jungle and nations come and go. You're welcome to come to the Middle East and practice all the teachings of Jesus - loving your enemy, turning the other cheek, taking zero steps to secure your own existence (seizing enemy territory used to attack you? unfathomable!) and then you can be the moral one. Doesn't that sound wonderful? Or is it easier to judge from afar where one has no skin in the game and envision how a perfectly moral actor would behave and then consider how Israel falls short of that standard?

And remember to only judge Israel. There is to be no pressure on the Arabs to grant right of return to the millions of expelled Jews. I understand that you think suicide is the moral option for Israel. The weak and dead can do no wrong.

You mean all those non-combatants you displaced and then stole their houses and land? — Benkei

Oh please. From those towns they attacked Israel. So Israel goes in, Arabs flee, lose war, and then want it all back like the attempt at annihilation never happened and they can try again later. Sorry, but they lost and that has a consequence. Just curious, is there a precedent for a group going on the offensive, losing the resulting conflict, and then the defender just offering them their land back out of the goodness of their heart or a sense of fairness?

It's not simple theft. It's land gained during war. A war in which the enemy tried to wipe us out.

And the "Palestinians" are colonizers as well unless you're making the claim that they are indigenous.

It's interesting to me that despite not believing in objective morality you clearly do believe in following certain "rights"/principles invented some ~50 years ago extremely resolutely even to the point where its application inevitably results in mass chaos and death.

And why can't the Turks come and re-settle it again?

So the US goes back to the Natives then. And my own state of Texas would return to Mexico. But certainly there was an owner that predates Mexico. Not sure where we draw the line there but ok. :up:

But why do the Palestinians get it? Why not just return it to the Turks? Why do you suppose the Palestinians are the original inhabitants? It's in the name, isn't it? :chin:

I'm not entirely sure which post of mine you're referring to.

My point is simple: Allowing ~6 million Palestinians full Israeli citizenship calls the fundamental nature of Israel as a secular Jewish state into question. Israel may then very well end up being an Islamic state following Sharia law after the demographic change.

Would you rather see it a Muslim state? There are no millions of secularists pouring in to secularize the land. It is either Muslim or Jewish. But Israel is not governed by Jewish religious law. It is a secular Jewish state.

Maybe pockets of violence— maybe just issues at first but not in the long run — Mikie

Having 6 million Palestinians come to Israel brings "Israel as a Jewish state" into question. Now it is quite possibly a muslim state. And quite possibly a muslim state following sharia law as many other muslim states do.

For a state to function these types of questions can't be up in the air.

Sure, in every society there's people with different ideas. But inundating a community with another group with very different values is throwing gas on the fire and introduces magnitudes more strife and difference.

The Quran is anti-dog? — Mikie

A few of the hadiths cite dogs as a source of ritual impurity.

In any case, I can bring up the 3am adhan or attitudes towards dogs but the main thing issue is political power and representation. E.g. You can have your nice little community of communists, but if that community gets inundated by a different community with different values there can very well end up being strife as both groups vye for power and influence. Diversity is fine and individuals of another group may be fine people, but collectively a challenge is posed with mass migration.

Benkei and I were discussing the right of return - a scenario in which some ~6 million palestinians would come to Israel.

That's right, and therefore claiming to be the messiah is not blasphemy. — Leontiskos

:up: There have been plenty of messianic claimants in Judaism, including some very colorful ones.

Hey Mikie, what do you think of the idea of a mosque being built next to your house? They'll blast calls to prayer 5x daily including at like 3am (don't worry, the times will shift.) Excited? Great! Embrace diversity.

Also, hope you're not a dog owner. They don't have the best reputation in Islamic texts so be careful.

I take it you mean Amy-Jill Levine. Her scholarship is solid. I read "The Historical Jesus in Context" and some interviews somewhere. Being raised in a Jewish household she was unencumbered by belief in Christian dogma. She did not have to struggle with the belief that Jesus is God. — Fooloso4

Yes, thank you. :lol:

Currently reading "the misunderstood Jew."

In the case of the gentile authors, however, it seems likely that the distinctions between men and gods was not so clear cut. — Fooloso4

Yes, and this is a great post by the way. Agree that Psalm 82 is a polytheistic holdover reflecting a very old tradition that pre-dates monotheism. But yes, when we speak of conceptions of divinity we should distinguish between how e.g. Jews use it and Greeks use it. According to the ancient Greeks, some mortals can gain divine status after death. In Judaism the messiah is not God. The messiah is no more "God" than you or I although he's certainly a very special person.

I've already answered this pages ago and how current Israeli blood has been diluted to such an extent that their claims to other areas in the world would be significantly stronger than to Israel. But even if we would grant the existence of that right then certainly the rights of recently displaced is much stronger.

Edit: moreover I don't recall Jews being prohibited from settling in Palestine. — Benkei

If we were to implement this internationally it would result in mass chaos. Even just in Israel it would be mass chaos. Israel would be Islamicized by a hostile population. The West can toy with such ideas but Israel does not have such a luxury.

I was in Israel around 10 years ago and I don't remember the route but I did go to Jerusalem. Very beautiful country.

You should explain why people's rights cannot be exercised. — Benkei

What about the Jewish right of return to Bethlehem? Jesus was born there. Or are you only concerned with "justice" for one side?

Where do these rights even come from?

Maybe ur right. Israel just needs to welcome the Palestinians with a giant hummus and falafel stand and everything will be gravy. /s

On a more serious note, I shouldn't have to explain this to you. Consider traveling to Israel. Then you'll see why so much blood has been shed over it.

Right of return means millions of Palestinians coming to Israel. Israel can neither support such a thing nor does it bode well politically. There would be fighting in the streets.

If we didn't have Philo and co. we'd probably hear similar things about how no Jew (or "no true Jew") would embrace Platonism or blend it with Judaism. Indeed, Protestant scholars tried to make exactly this sort of argument as they struggled to dislodge Greek thought from their form of Christianity (which is quite difficult given its influence is all over the NT and clearly in some OT books, such as the Wisdom of Solomon). — Count Timothy von Icarus

Indeed. Hellenism was influential on Jewish thought in antiquity and several canonical books (especially those written in the second temple period) do contain Hellenistic themes and influences. The rabbis did disqualify some works from canon on the basis that they were essentially "too Greek", but it would impossible to purge all Greek influence from Jewish texts.

I may have missed something, but when I read the Jesus of the Gospels I mostly see him arguing Jewish Scripture, interpretation of the law (halaka), using Jewish methods of argumentation, Jewish parables, referencing Jewish liturgy etc. I don't see him trying to Hellenize the Jews. I don't see him discussing Plato with the Pharisees. Philo studied it as he was an Alexandrian and he was from the upper classes which had the time and resources to pursue these activities.

The view that Yahweh can be man is shared by no Jewish sect ever but I grant you that it is possible that his followers believed it. Elijah and Elisha also performed miracles including raising the dead. Then again, the rabbis (possibly?) accuse him of leading his followers to idolatry so who knows. Why would Peter deny him 3x if he believed Jesus to be God?

Don't you have a master's degree? Why do I need to explain this to you? Or maybe you're just messing with me.

Point being, from what are likely the very earliest Christian sources Christ is seen as divine. The argument of folks like Erhman, that there is "no way" first century Jews would have ever thought their leader was God is undercut by the fact that the earliest source we have clearly shows a first century Jews who very obviously thinks Christ is God and thinks this despite close contact with the Apostles who followed Christ. — Count Timothy von Icarus

The earliest Christian sources are maybe from the early 50s?

Ehrman says that shortly after J's execution/resurrection discussions of his divinity occur among his followers and that there are a range of views towards J in the early church. I don't see any evidence that his followers viewed him as God during his lifetime. Amy Jill-Levinson argues that Jesus was an observant Jew. After J's death and resurrection, yes - the view that he is divine wins out in the early church and becomes Christian dogma.

Once a Jew believes Jesus is divine is he essentially becomes a Christian. So yes the earliest Christian sources view J as divine... to be a Christian source is to view J as divine.