There's genocide everywhere. There's racism everywhere. The entire world is mud, so why should I go out of my way and take up my own time to try to convince you that Israel is not mud when the rest of the world is? If the Israelis are genocidal then so are the Palestinians. The intention is there. Israelis are murdered in the name of genocide. Both sides, as well as the entire world, are genocidal maniacs (except you.)

Your own country of Australia is obviously institutionally racist and genocidal. I'm surprised you don't mention that.

No, the only reason I post is everytime you post falsehoods and mistakes I'll be more than happy to correct it so that less biased people can know what's really going on. — Benkei

Your focus on factual correctness here is masturbatory. As long as you continue to support (which is effectively the same as refusing to condemn) the deliberate murder of innocent civilians I cannot engage with you, it is that simple. Please come back to the side of humanity here.

It's like if the Netherlands were in a dispute (fine lets call it an occupation) and I told you "oh by the way, I don't have any problems with the opposition running into your house and murdering the lot of you." Now let's proceed! Let's make progress on this issue!

Yeah we can talk later I'll be over on the other thread you made.

Is it ever hard to function when the entire world around you is so unrepentantly racist and genocidal? Is it difficult being the only good one? Does it ever get lonely or have you just kinda learned to live with it? It must get very lonely up there on the pedestal.

Do your parents think just like you? It must be tough when everyone around you are racist, blood-thirsty genocide supporters.

Yes, and FDR is Hitler and so is Obama and you're the only one in this world who has any semblance of moral decency.

Not the same thing. These arrests were in response to violent protests and weapons stockpiling.

No it doesn't and it's obvious you just perceive Israel as Nazi Germany or something along those lines and I don't have the time or effort to dispel that notion.

Israel will not arrest people for communicating with Palestinians in Gaza. It's not my fault you don't understand anything.

I shouldn't have to say this because it should be widely known but Israel does not arrest non-violent peace activists for trying to make connections with the other side and any regime that does is a terrorist regime and a rotten government inside and out. Doing something like that violates the basics.

This is not about Israel.

The folks you're referring to are in lock down mode. There is no evidence or reasoning which will have the slightest impact on their point of view. In that sense, we've done a good job of creating a Middle East thread. :-) — Foghorn

Damn straight, it's all about who you engage. I have had good conversations here with other posters and even some of the posters who I'd consider less than objective will sometimes still bring up decent points or points that I hadn't considered. My discussions with numerous posters have ran their course but I'm still going strong with one.

Given that there is exactly no chance of that happening....

Now what? — Foghorn

It was actually really funny, I gave him an article about how Hamas arrested & imprisoned 3 Palestinian grassroots peace activists for talking with Israeli peace activists over skype or zoom and his response was basically "well it was all done by the books and done very professionally, unlike the Israelis!" :brow:

I guess the "now what" is that we've reached the end of our conversation and we move onto a different topic.

If we are to have a productive conversation on this subject it starts with you condemning Hamas and their methods. Until that happens this discussion is not moving forward.

We've been through this conversation a billion times and I don't feel like rehashing things with you for a 1 billion + 1 time. Have our discussions on this topic been productive in the past or have they just been fighting? We're way too far apart on this issue to communicate productively. I don't understand why you keep engaging me. Is it because you want to change my mind? Is it because you genuinely want to learn something or understand my position? I don't feel like jumping back into the mud today.

Imho, you're the sanest and most serious person in the thread. You got sucked in to the shit storm a bit here and there, but overall you kept your cool and stuck to reasoning. — Foghorn

Yeah, I did get sucked into the shit storm a bit, and it's interesting to reflect and think back "why did this person have this affect on me?" Thinking about this question helped me define myself and my values a little better. Every once in a while you'll just come across someone who not just manages to push the right buttons, but to also push them in a certain way.

A great deal of this thread seems fairly described as conflict for the sake of conflict. That is, conflict engaged because we find conflict somehow psychologically satisfying. I'm wondering the degree to which this phenomena helps fuel the endless cycle in the Middle East. — Foghorn

I'll admit that there has been that "conflict for the sake of conflict" element in this thread but I don't see my current discussion here with @fdrake as falling under that banner.

I don't know if "psychologically satisfying" is the word I would use. There's also a big difference between a written argument with anonymous strangers and actually going out on the street and doing this type of thing against another group.

. A minority on both sides may have become addicted to the conflict more for personal reasons than substantive ones. — Foghorn

This sounds right, and I just want to add that people change when they're exposed to high levels of stress or trauma over longer time frames. One's environment does change people. I say this as a veteran but not a combat veteran.

Here's a question. To what degree is the Middle East conflict endless conflict cycle fueled by the very same psychological needs and motivations etc that have fueled this thread? — Foghorn

I can just turn off conversations when I get bored or annoyed with a poster. I've already cut off one poster entirely because he was advocating for intentionally murdering civilians and using religious/moral language to justify it. I had the luxury of turning that off, but if I was exposed to that daily I would be a very different person and a lot less amenable to conversation. Repeated exposure to conflict and hate drags one down.

Note that such practices are explicitly called part of the culture of Zionism, according to one of the march's political advocates in the state of Israel, as the New York Times documents. — fdrake

I must have not got the memo that Zionism includes provocative marches and threats. All Zionism is is a commitment to a Jewish homeland in the region.

I ask you to turn this post about - imagine it was a Jewish community standing on this precipice, what would you recommend? I think we already know - get the rifle, never again. — fdrake

Are you asking me what if Jews were in the place of the Palestinians? We would not be in this place because we would never refuse to recognize another group. We wouldn't refuse to establish diplomatic relations with them. That's the first step towards any political reconciliation. Nor would we teach our children that they must avenge their history by any means necessary. Jews have been kicked out of Judea several times.

Yes. Zionists shouting racialised death threates while marching through a Palestinian dominant neighbourhood. Accompanied by the marching drums of incendiary bombs dropped on civilians in Gaza. — fdrake

You'll see the same thing on the Arab side -- yes, without the march through Israel but they would if they could -- and this is not intended to serve as an excuse or justification, more of a "welcome to the shit." There's plenty of footage of Arab/Palestinian rallies where they burn Israeli flags or shout death to Israel or Jews and launch rockets. The march might have been in response to rock throwing. It's just an endless cycle. The news covers some events and not others and we never get the complete picture.

I am not currently aware of any Israeli plan or intention to annex Gaza, so when you mention existential threat that's more or less what I think of. It wouldn't even make sense for Israel to annex Gaza - what is it going to do with the Palestinians?

Crypto markets looking shaky, indecisive right now. Stablecoins yields quite generous though. excellent apys and fairly safe investment. I'm surprised this doesn't receive a little more attention.

Mai Khalid Afana, a Palestinian doctor and lecturer was executed a few hours ago by Israel murderers after accidentally being on the "Jews Only" side of the road. — StreetlightX

Oooh, you edited it from "Jewish murderers" to "Israeli murderers" -- why did you do that?? Why revert back, I'm interested.

Why not phrase it like this: "Mai Khalid Afana, a Palestinian doctor and lecturer was executed a few hours ago by Jewish murderers during the ongoing Final Solution of the Palestinian people inside of an extermination camp."

And Israel's aggression is not blatant because you're under the impression you didn't start it? — Benkei

Yes. It's a complex chain of events.

So as long as I don't throw the first punch I'm in the clear? Are you 6? Because that's the exact argument I get from my daughter when she hurts her little brother "but he started it!" — Benkei

You're comparing Israel and Palestine to children right now. The level of arrogance is unbelievably. The term "be less white" has never made more sense to me than it does now.

Ethnic cleansing is not two children fighting.

Yes, let's discuss the crimes committed by resistance fighters against the Germans. That's really going to make the Nazi crimes much less worse. — Benkei

In the case of the resistance fighters all that violence was carried out in response to blatant Nazi aggression, but what was the initial act of Israeli aggression that you condemn? I want to hear one specific cause that justifies all this violence. There was violence before 1967.

I don't recall too many instances of resistance fighters wantonly attacking Germans civilians however.

:rofl:

Which of course you would think that you have complete, unfettered access to. Yes, I know. You see and know all.

According to your sources that is true. Not according to mine.

In what world is it only fair to only discuss the crimes of one side of a conflict?

Yeah, because Israeli Jews are basically Nazis. Why did I waste my words there?

A state with a "Jews Only" street does not require 'understanding'. It requires dismantling. — StreetlightX

Show me please. Where is this street? Who enforces this policy? Or is this at a border checkpoint and they're trying to speed up the process?

Why am I angry? It's not that I'm angry, but maybe a little perturbed. In a sentence, I'm perturbed at the inability or unwillingness of various posters to even try to entertain or empathize with the Jewish narrative on this issue for even one second. It is their insistence on taking their own perspective -- an outsider's perspective which clearly lacks cultural and religious understanding -- and unquestionably elevating it to the standard of absolute truth without regard for the perspectives and histories of the other parties involved.

You're right, the facts are out there, but maybe there's a little more to it than has been mentioned. Maybe things aren't as simple as you think, and maybe there are better and worse ways to frame criticisms.

EDIT: Gaza and the WB are not the fundamental issues at hand here and are not the fundamental issues to either party except clueless westerns who were born yesterday.

You really have no idea about the facts on the ground do you? For instance, it's illegal for Christians to preach to Jews (but of course not the other way around). — Benkei

Oh tell me about the "facts on the ground" from your intensive, hands on experience in Israel. Show me when this has gone to court. Are Christians being sent to jail or fined for preaching to Jews?

When do Jews ever preach to Christians??? We don't even try to convert.

Lets just start with this one before moving onto the others. Please show me these brave Christian martyrs who have been persecuted by Israel.

Let's just start here.

Are we ever going to talk about Moroccans in the Netherlands? Why is institutional racism so prevalent there? Is Dutch society just rotten to the core? Why is everything so unequal? Let's talk about that next.

Yeah, just by being there Israel is complicit. They have staked their claim. It is worth mentioning though that the Arab states themselves are in a complex network of alliances and are by no means united. There's long-standing bad blood between Sunnis and Shi'ites and some Arab countries have a shown a willingness to get a little closer with Israel if it means situating themselves a little better against a strong regional enemy like Iran. There are so many other issues out there for the Arabs besides Israel-Palestine.

So what do you picture? An eternal struggle? Does this end only when one of the parties is dead on the floor? — Foghorn

I really hope not. I guess I place my hope in grassroots movements; the two groups have to learn to live together, there is no other option. You might want to check out Rudy Rochman on youtube he has a bunch of interesting discussions on this topic which pushes more of a ground-up solution. He also opposes Israel on a range of topics. Regardless, if we continue to frame the conflict in certain ways (which we see examples of in this thread) there will simply never be peace.

Doesn't controlling the West Bank just put off the inevitable? — Foghorn

Israel does not control all of the WB, they've already gave back some of it to the Palestinians... I believe in '95. Even before Israel captured it in '67 it was controlled by Jordan, not the Palestinians. And the Jordanians only took an interest in it as a way to attack Israel during the Independence War. I have no idea who rightfully controls it and the fact that complete outsiders have such strong opinions on this is bizarre. Jews have been living in the WB alongside Arabs for centuries.

Yes, which is why I've suggested leaving the Middle East. — Foghorn

Jewish culture has such deep roots in Israel (it's where Judaism was formed) that packing up and leaving out of fear is just cowardice. A people like that don't even deserve their own state.

We're not talking about atrocity right now. We're talking about understanding.

Yeah I don't use cultural relativism to excuse atrocity and inhumanity. — StreetlightX

You also don't use it to understand conflicts as they are understood by those actually engaged in them.

No it is Israel's existence. But understanding this would involve taking on the perspective of another culture/religion which is clearly beyond your capabilities.

I understand your idea here and it's crossed my mind as well. I'm also not claiming to be a Middle East expert by any means.

But then all of Israel's neighbors have money and arms. And even ALL of them together have never been able to defeat Israel. — Foghorn

The issue here is that it's not just about armies - there's chemical and biological weapons as well.

Israel withdrawing from the WB -- apart from being a logistical headache and displacing hundreds of thousands would also pose a serious security threat to israel as missiles are now able to penetrate further into Israel and hit bigger population centers. Israel is significant less secure without the WB and even by your own admittance Israel just setting itself up to lash out against and reclaim more territory. I understand what you're saying though.

Ok, so what is the nature of the argument?

Palestinians want Jews out and full control of West Bank?

Jews vary in opinion from agreement, to moderate compromise, to full rejection?

If most Jews and most Palestinians could agree on anything, what might that be? — Foghorn

Many if not most Palestinians want Israel - as a Jewish governing body - gone entirely. The WB would just be a concession towards that goal. Many Palestinians I think would be fine with Jews being in the region as long as they're subordinate to Muslim governance which obviously makes Jews subjugated. The issue that many people don't realize is that Gaza and the WB are proxies - the main issue is and has always been the presence of a Jewish governing body that claims control of even one inch of Muslim land.

Um, who controls incoming and outgoing traffic in Gaza? Israel and Egypt, right? Are Gazans free to come and go as they like? Is commerce free to go in and out as it pleases? — Foghorn

If they're going across a border then Israel and Egypt control it, otherwise internally it's Hamas. It is Hamas who is hunting down and executing gays, it is Hamas who is arresting grassroots peace activists in Gaza, it is Hamas who is subjugating women and allowing them no freedoms. There are definitely restrictions on imports and that does make life harder for the Gazans. It's not a good situation but I think both Israel and Egypt have serious security concerns over Hamas.

The politicians have vested interests in the continuing conflict.
The people on the ground need to make their own existential decisions on how to live a peaceful life.
Civilians are the peace process. — Mystic

:100:

Ok, fair enough. But is residence the same as being the rulers? As example, the native people of North America were here at least 10,000 years before Europeans arrived. Should the continent be turned back over to their control due to that history? Where do such historical claims end? — Foghorn

When it comes to the West Bank Israel controls part of it and the palestinians control part of it. They have it organized so that Israel only governs Israelis and the Palestinians govern their own people. West Bank is definitely significantly better than Gaza. Jews have been living in the WB for centuries at least, continuously, and they want to be governed by other Jews.

What's the media situation in Israel? Are there hard right and hard left channels feeding the fire for profit, as is the case here? — Foghorn

I'm not entirely sure since I don't live in Israel but I do have family who does. I have spent time there but I wasn't watching the news.

Can you agree that there is a segment of the Israeli population (don't know percent) that has imperialist ambitions for land that has belonged to others for quite some time? — Foghorn

Yes, there are extremist Zionists who I regard as a problem. There are extremists on both sides and they both work off each other - one side says or does something inflammatory and the worst part of the other side responds. I'm all in favor of de-escalation, the only question is are the politicians?

Well, Israel isn't apartheid in relation to Christians, but in relation to Palestinians. — Foghorn

The Palestinians in Gaza are not part of Israel, thus they can't be under "apartheid." They are part of their own separate region, and there are no Israeli settlements or soldiers in Gaza, it is run by Hamas. Israel does monitor imports to screen out weapons. Jews have also been in the West Bank for thousands of years and I don't think it's fair to ask us to leave.

Judaism is not a race nor are Arabs. It makes no sense to call Israel racist against Arabs. If Israel is apartheid why do Arab Christians do quite well in Israel?

There is no solution to be had if both sides don't agree on the facts. — Benkei

You're not going to get that -- welcome to the Middle East. You are never going to get your request here. To think that anyone can come from outside to set all the facts and all the history straight is white man savior syndrome. You would need to stamp out the Jewish narrative entirely. Are you ready to do that? And don't tell me this is only about the "Zionists" because the Jewish community is virtually all Zionist.