My point is that it's always irrelevant not just because we're on a philosophy forum. — Benkei

It all depends on the framework that you approach the conflict with. If your entire goal is to bash one side, sure you'll take material or arguments or facts from anywhere -- doesn't matter. All ammo is good ammo.

If your approach is to find a solution, then these other personal ideas do matter as they can be counterproductive to a solution.

Bankei, I'm agreeing with you. Read my post again.

Sigh. Even if it was an accurate personal attack it is still irrelevant. — Benkei

It's irrelevant from a purely philosophical standpoint, but in the world of practical action something like this is very relevant. The problem with political issues like this is that they're not purely philosophical issues and cannot be with all of their complexity and real-world messiness, but since we're on a philosophy forum we typically try to stick to a philosophical framework which creates tension especially when the discussion at hand is by no means purely philosophical in nature.

Yes, obviously there hasn't been enough death there... — ssu

The essential divide in this issue is between those who are out for blood and those who actually seek solutions. No one here is saying that Israel is an angel.

yeah they're all basically the same everyone is hitler.

Israel's savage, violent, oppression justifies resistance of the oppressed Palestinian people "by any means necessary", including terrorism. — 180 Proof

I just couldn't help myself.

Hey 180 are you a man? Straight? Able-bodied? Neurotypical? Do you have savings? A place to live? Any speech problems? Why do you uphold and reinforce systems of oppression? Don't tell me you don't. Why do you viciously, savagely, brutally, repeatedly oppress others when you uphold and reinforce these systems? You want to see the evil oppressor? Look in the mirror. I hope someone rips your face off and as they're doing so they remind you it's because they're fighting oppression "by any means necessary." It would be perfectly justified and also hilarious. One more dead oppressor = less oppression, let that sink in.

But it quite clearly is. Every time the "right to self defence" is exercised by killing children as "collateral damage". — Benkei

Collateral damage is an inevitability of war/military conflict and not the same thing morally as intentional murder. Even when the allies targeted Nazi military bases children were killed because children live on military bases. There is literally no way to avoid civilian casualties, it's always just a matter of how many. Even though children end up dead in both cases, the is no moral equivalence.

Said the same guy defending killing Palestinian children as collateral damage. — Benkei

If collateral damage has moral equivalence to intentional murder then FDR and Churchill are basically Hitler. Virtually every government that has ever been at war for whatever reason is evil and illegitimate.

In your failure to condemn Israel — Benkei

I'll criticize Israel on multiple occasions, it's you who refuses to strongly criticize any of the Palestinian movements.

If murdering Palestinian children is permitted then obviously the murder of Israeli children works be too or Dutch ones for that matter. — Benkei

a) The intentional murder of Palestinian children is not permitted morally and is not a practice of the Israeli government. 180 took one statement out of context.

b) Even if the intentional murder of palestinian children was condoned by the Israeli government (which would obviously make the Israeli government illegitimate and evil) even then the intentional murder of Israeli children would remain a deep moral crime.

I don't know why basic morality is so difficult for people to understand.

At no point where 5-year old children of Nazis "valid targets."

Don't tell me you wouldn't react in the same way if someone told you that Dutch children (including your own) were valid targets. It's not my fault you have zero empathy for Israeli civilians so no need to lash out.

If Palestinian children (of "David") are valid targets, then Israeli children (of "Goliath") also must be valid targets. — 180 Proof

Yeah, this was all I needed to hear. As long as you believe this you're an enemy of the Jewish people and I'm not engaging with you. There's no way around this truth.

Even Jewish holocaust victims would not have been justified going after random Germans or murdering the children of Nazi war criminals. Do you know why? Because many of them recognized that they were bound by moral principles and responsibilities at all times and they knew that God was watching. God does not give victims blank checks to set the world on fire. You quote all this bullshit when you can't even follow very basics of the systems that you draw from.

But seriously I can't engage with you as long as you condone (and that's exactly what you're doing) the murder of my people. Bye.

If you feel like re-joining civilization or morality at some point let me know.

Then you've quite clearly not paid attention. — Benkei

Maybe I haven't; I'm not perfect. I just remember last time I tried to get you to condemn terrorist groups for intentionally targeting civilians you wouldn't (?) (or maybe there was just some hesitation?) I've never claimed to have a perfect memory and maybe you've moderated your positions over time. I'm happy to revisit this.

If you want to unequivocally condemn the intentional indiscriminate murder of civilians by terrorist groups then welcome back to the side of humanity. Welcome back to the discussion. Because if not you are getting what I wrote to 180 in the first few paragraphs of this post.

I wasn't even talking to you, Benkei, but in any case it's the same thing with you - the refusal to condemn the "victim."

This isn't about me at all by the way. I don't care if you think I'm a literal Nazi when this entire time all I've been trying to do (unsuccessfully) is to get 180 to condemn the intentional murder of Israeli civilians by Hamas & other groups.

At this point I've given up and approached it from a different angle.

Hey 180, you're a man, right? What if an abused woman assaulted you because you reminded her of someone? I guess we just refuse to condemn her; how could anyone ever criticize such a victim? She's certainly faced oppression (if not genocide!) by men. Guess you're SOL here.

The owners or their representatives, aka not employees. — Judaka

Are you talking about the CEO? How about the board of directors? The board of directors act on behalf of investors. This is not totalitarianism where the owner can do whatever he wants.

I get that Israelis want to have their own country, that's very understandable, especially given the history. The problem is, it's a very small country. A very smart country, but still very small, and surrounded by enemies. Israel has to win every single day. Israeli's enemies only need to win once. — Foghorn

Your genuine concern here is a breath of fresh air in this thread. Thanks for the input.

— Judaka

The employer makes all the important decisions, they wield absolute authority - similarly, — Judaka

Please clarify this. Who are you talking about? The founder? CEO? The person interviewing you for the job? The hiring manager who approves the applicant? Or are you talking about just the entire company as an abstract entity? Maybe the board?

I'm not interested in discussing the morality of employers, only the ethics of the system. — Judaka

Well "the system" starts with a job offer in a free market.

That is a damn good question and I'm not sure how to answer. My own convictions on the topic are grounded by my theism, but in addition morality can't just be an abstract project it needs to be practiced and honed. We need to train this capacity for moral fortitude or moral courage. I'm fully aware that it's one thing for one to talk about a noble death but a whole other thing to go through with it. To go through with it requires serious discipline and conviction.

Yeah, and the issue in real life is that people claim "necessity" as a way to avoid moral responsibility... repeatedly.

Even if someone could reasonably be expected to be killed for refusing an order, does that give them a blank check to follow all orders in order to stay alive? Society needs to bring back the idea of a noble death.

I feel that is a quandary in itself though: the permission to do or advance evil for personal gain, even if that's to put food on the table. I appreciate that, depending on where and when you live, you might have to choose between ethics and eating, and I would be sympathetic to someone swallowing the former to swallow the latter, which is why we should not have a society that forces people to choose. — Kenosha Kid

Yeah, it would depend on the nature of the immorality, no? Polluting is different from murder or theft. How would you treat someone who scammed a family member out of thousands of dollars but then told you that he was doing it to put food in his table? Is that really the only way to survive? Doubtful.

I was making an explanation since you seemed to be under the impression that the boss controls how all tasks are done.

My point was that in these delegations of power - even under Hitler - people within those ranks of bureaucracy have latitude and real decisions to make. Middle management are not mindless automatons mindlessly following orders. The way you phrase things is like only the head boss has agency and everyone else just follows his orders. It's not reflective of reality at all. An order or a regulation is far from actual performance and execution.

Anyway, back to an earlier question: Is it immoral for me to offer you a job? Is it abusive?

By necessity, the employer must delegate tasks but how these tasks are performed and judged, the authority and resources they have, are all things he decides. I'm not interested in democratising the power of a shift supervisor, the decisions they make don't interest me. What's your game here anyway Carlos? Why do you care so much about capitalism that you're willing to resort to these absurd tactics to defend it? — Judaka

This isn't about capitalism, this is about how organizations work. Any organization. The boss cannot know and does not know all the features of those little jobs making the bureaucrat the de facto expert there. The further down the chain the more clueless the boss is. I was in the military for 6 years -- an insanely hierarchical organization - and I can tell you that there is no way the Colonels or the Generals (who are far from the real bosses anyways, the real boss is Biden) have that close daily understanding of what's going on in offices. The day-to-day management is enacted and enforced by the equivalent of middle-management and there's layers of authority even within that. Yes, these middle management have strong ad hoc authority and they can make your life hell without even speaking with a Colonel. That's power.

Look into the de facto/de jure distinction.

Middle management and supervisors control how tasks are completed.

Gaza city doesn't matter because I'm asking you about murdered Jews.

Just own up that you don't care about murdered Jews as long as they're Israeli/Zionist.

My own attitudes towards Gaza city matter zero. this isn't about me.

Take a good long look at Gaza City and answer your own damn question. :point:

"עַיִן בְּעַיִן שֵׁן בְּשֵׁן"

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/1623175593-2-former-israeli-ambassadors-to-south-africa-accuse-jewish-state-of-aparthei — 180 Proof

I have no idea what "take a good long look at Gaza city means." Gaza city doesn't matter. I am asking you about murdering israelis. stay on topic.

I didn't bother to translate the second line because I don't speak hebrew and I don't see the need to introduce it unless you're just trying to sound fancy. if you want to translate it for me because it answers me question then go ahead.

I'm not engaging with you until I hear whether Israeli teenagers out on a Saturday night or random people in a coffee shop qualify as "Goliath" or "Israel" and are therefore valid targets.

It does seem reasonable to question the rationality of a long oppressed people seeking a safe home in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods on Earth. This seems equivalent to me, a relatively well off old white man, choosing to move to a ghetto on the south side of Chicago because my ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. — Foghorn

Sure, we can question it in hindsight. We're in a pretty big mess in the Middle East, but Israel was created in 1948 and it's 2021. We can entertain theoretical discussions about whether Israel should have been created in the first place, but it's now a country of 9 million and there is no possibility of Israel just packing up and leaving. We need to ask ourselves how we best move forward from here in a way that's acceptable and fair to both sides.

During one of the previous shootouts with Hamas I spent about a month in the comment section of the Jerusalem post, where I claimed that Israelis were choosing a particular piece of land over the safety of their children. That's the reality I see. — Foghorn

I would need to hear that reasoning flushed out a bit more to comment on it.

When I become President of the United States I will extend US citizenship to every Israeli and invite them to come live with us, where nobody is firing rockets at Jews. They would be such a great asset to the United States. This won't work of course, but the invitation should be made anyway. — Foghorn

I have no problem with this. I'm well aware that there's risk in Israel and rockets do hit places, but again neither side is going anywhere.

Please stay on topic. We're talking about the murder of Israeli citizens. The fact that you're not giving me a straight answer speaks for itself.

I also don't read hebrew.

Violence of the oppressed ("David" ~ Gaza, WB) against the violent oppressor ("Goliath" ~ Israel) I support. :fire: — 180 Proof

Do Israeli teenagers out on a Saturday night count as "Israel" or "Goliath?" How about random Israelis in coffee shops?

I'm not black. — James Riley

LOL I must have misread you somewhere! Ok lol.

I don't know what to make of your response to my post. I have been arguing the exact opposite of having anyone in the non-oppressed community trying to "connect and reach out" to anyone in the oppressed community. I'm talking about those in the oppressor community reaching out to the oppressors and trying to work with them. In other words, "woke" whites should be schooling other "non-woke" whites. — James Riley

In order for this to happen white allies need to take direction from black communities. We absolutely need this coordination to happen before whites go out and do this type of work. Whites are not to be operating independently.

It would be level, or a whole lot leveler if we would have, after the Civil War, dealt with the enemy in this way: All former slave-owning properties were given to former slaves; All children of former slave-owners were taken from their families and removed to a school in Carlisle, PA for re-education; All wives and old men of former slave-owners were shipped off to distant Reservations to become dependent wards of the government; All former slave-owning men were forced into indentured servitude under their former slaves for a period of years; All proven sympathizers of slavery and/or former slave-owners were subject to the same treatment; All those who resisted were hung or shot. — James Riley

This is unjust. Justice must occur on an individual level - children of slaveholders are not guilty and should not be stripped from their parents. No more breaking apart families. Two wrongs don't make a right. Justice cannot be carried out on a group level like that. I can't tell where you're getting your idea of justice from.

Very suave of you to avoid my last question.

I have no idea what you're talking about. What is your attitude towards intentional violence towards Israeli civilians? Do you condemn it? Yes or no.

This is all I need to hear. You're either on the side of humanity or you are on the side of evil.

"Condone" disingenuously exaggerates my position — 180 Proof

Then please clarify.

To be anti-zionist is to support the disappearance/vanishment of Israel which sounds like murder to most ears. Israel is already here; you can't question the existence or demand the non-existence of something that's already here.

Moral integrity? Moral integrity? You condone Hamas' terror attacks, you don't get to tell me about moral integrity.

I only question whether you really actually believe yourself. Is it cool with you when a suicide bomber walks into a night club in Tel Aviv and kills dozens of young people? Of course it is! Gotta fight Goliath!
Go punch an Israeli baby in the head - just fighting Goliath. I'm not even offended anymore, you just divide the entire world into good guys vs bad guys and sometimes the bad guys are children but who cares just kill them anyway; individuals don't matter only groups matter.

An onanist like you? Sure you do, BC. We all do. But especially you. — 180 Proof

I actually misspoke here and I wanted to correct this.

You're not a racist, you're just a psycho. I thought you were a racist because you have no issues with Hamas murdering Israeli/Jewish families (gotta give it right back to the oppressor), but then when you said you'd more or less be fine with your own family being murdered if they were in the oppressor class I just decided to leave you alone.

You'd like us if we were dead, 180. You love dead Jews (or subjugated ones), they can't oppress anyone -- perfectly harmless, just like everyone should be! :nerd:

Not dealing with your bullshit feels so good. :cool:

I don't interact with racists, period.

I'm not engaging you on this subject. After what you've said I'm done with you.

Zionism = Jewish liberation movement. I don't care what you think about it.

True. I wasn't suggesting you'd get angry or enraged. I was suggesting that you might be afraid. Very afraid. Now, if you had nothing to be afraid of, then they might be open to education. Failing that is when frustration and anger kick in. But here you are, the minority, trying to do the heavy lifting for them. I think you, in that case, and blacks here at home, in our case, shouldn't necessarily have to shoulder the burden of schooling their oppressors. The oppressors have a lot of work to do themselves, and the "enlightened" or "woke" members of their own should pitch in. — James Riley

I'd be afraid if I had a reason to be, for instance if there was residual anti-Semitism that reached the point of violence. There's so few Jews in Latvia and Lithuania today maybe we should take a country like Poland.

I hate to say it, but it is ultimately on the oppressed because the oppressed understand their own problems and situation better than the rest of the world. Even if allies try to connect and reach out, this is an interest or a hobby (maybe a job?) for us when it's your life. Allies certainly have some role to play and they can help, but it's not a leading one. I would feel intimidated teaching or lecturing on racism to other white people, but hats off to allies who make a genuine effort.

I can understand that. However, going to the extreme is not unlike a racist running to the "black welfare queen in Chicago" or pointing out the few looters in an otherwise peaceful protest or saying "All lives matter!" in response to a BLM statement. It's all a distraction from the merits of issue under discussion. It also ignores the casual mechanics of what got us here in an undesirable situation, and it is part of what keeps us here. — James Riley

I'm just always on the look-out. The last few posters that I talked to on this forum had this destructive mindset (including one from a former educator) so this type of mentality has become salient for me.

For example, views like that the oppressed class essentially has a blank check to do whatever they want to the oppressor class and they can't legitimately be criticized until the oppressor class is overthrown. Another poster framed it like the oppressed class is blameless and cannot even be held responsible even for crimes they commit against their own people as long as they're fighting an oppressor who is the real problem and the source of all problems. It's a sad reality, but I do ultimately need to check anti-racists to ensure that they're actually decent. I cannot trust them at face value.

It was a whole lot more than set up. It's billions of dollars every freaking year. — James Riley

It's not like Israel needs American foreign aid dollars to survive. American pumps billions into many other countries as well. All I'm saying is Israeli is ran by Israelis and when there's a war it's Israeli lives on the line. Other countries may support or cooperate with Israel, but at the end of the day Israel ultimately fends for itself.

the playing field is not level — James Riley

The playing field isn't level and never will be. Even if there was no slavery and we just dropped off black people into white society in the US in the 1820s-1830s or so they still don't speak the language or have any wealth with them. They wouldn't know the land. Sure, they could make a living and it would beat slavery but you're nowhere near bourgeoise white people levels both in terms of capital or - at least equally important -- the knowledge and experience that goes into maintaining that capital along with a ton of other financial knowledge about new financial products.

The way you formulated the issue made it sound as if I was the one who brought it up and was pushing it. — James Riley

I wasn't arguing with you and I didn't disagree with what you said, I was just picking your brain about how to best convey these truths to children as that's the current news issue. I didn't know you were black when I engaged you.

I'm sure CRT meant one thing to one "side" and another to the other. — James Riley

Yes, it does. I find myself watching videos on this subject and agreeing with both sides.

I really do think it's terrible branding, let's break it down word for word on this one.

Critical: This will remind many of "critical theory" which is a left-wing movement closely tied in with Marxism. For those who don't make that association, the word critical maybe sounds like judgmental or just nonsense jargon.

Race: A subject most Americans would rather avoid.

Theory: Americans just don't like theories. I don't know why, but we have a hard time with this concept in general. Americans like facts and success. Americans are also very uncomfortable with the idea that the majority ought to basically sit down and shut up when it comes to an important topic like race.

White people in general are suspicious of strong ethnic identities due to history in both Europe and here and I think decent chunk of white people wouldn't mind doing away with the idea of ethnic identity in general.

I dare say that if you were a member of the class of victim of the atrocities you would be way more than "frustrated." You might be down right scared! And understandably so. Imagine being black in a country when the enemy flag is still paraded around like an icon, and statues all over the fucking place. How would Jews feel if statues of Hitler, Goebbels (sp?), et al were up in places of government and prominence, along with swastikas and whatnot? Maybe not in Massachusetts, but Massachusetts ain't America. — James Riley

I am an Eastern European Jew who lost many family members in the Holocaust. I have never been to Romania, Latvia, or Lithuania but let's assume their Holocaust curriculum is lacking. In that case, if I lived there I would do my best to work within the system to change things. I'm a solution-oriented person and I prefer working within the system when possible. Getting angry or enraged about their lack of education doesn't solve anything. If anything it could be counter-productive because now I'm seen as unstable.

I've also lived in 4 different states now -- Texas, Maryland, California and Massachusetts and I'm not going to say what's "really" America and what isn't. They were all very different.

As for the confederate flag, I don't know what to say here. I just don't know or understand southern white culture and how they perceive their heritage or that flag. I would have to do a temperature check on the culture to see how they perceive it, but at the same time I certainly understand why blacks are upset about Confederate monuments and the flag.

That's a straw man, when someone says "X" and you say they are saying "X+1" you have set up a position for them that they did not set forth and a very easy one to knock down when no one in their right mind has said "X + 1". — James Riley

I said this earlier but I'm not attempting to counter your thesis here (because I don't know exactly what you believe.) I'm just throwing out a perspective and seeing whether you agree or disagree with it. As far as I can tell in this discussion we don't have any major disagreements yet.

The reason I bring up these points is because I do know people who think/believe this way and I like to know right off the bat whether I'm dealing with one.

That's because they don't want to admit they stand atop a pile of bones. Anyone familiar with finances and the compounding of money should understand the same principle applies to economic and cultural advantage. And the compounding also works the other direction, putting the debtor further in the hole. — James Riley

Civilization stands atop a pile of bones.

As long as those role models are pre- approved by us and the economic system in which we operate? "Look boy, if you do as we tell you, then you can be like Bob over here. Look at all the money he's got, and the house and car and boat. Why, if you're good enough, and you mind your p's and q's, they'll let you in the Country Club and you too can hob knob with the important folk. We're progressive now, don't you know? Just don't go gettin' uppity, now, ya hear?" — James Riley

Success is success is success, and don't let anyone ever tell you that money doesn't matter. Sure, some people love cars and boats and country clubs, but when you have millions of dollars you have the power to mold the world in the way that you want. You're in a much better place to give back to your community, not to mention you're able to spend your time the way that you want.

I understand that people can frame success in condescending ways, but I know you're able to look past the tone to see the deeper truth here.

We could have said that to the Jews: "Life's a bitch, sorry, but no state and no money. Keep wandering and maybe you'll learn to be like your tormentors some day. You could start by not being who you are. Yeah, that's the ticket."

Sarcasm off. — James Riley

The world will do as it does; the Jewish people strive toward their goal regardless. Sure the UN + Britain helped with the creation of the state, but Israel is always ultimately defended by Israelis, not Americans or Brits.

You lost me. Critical race theory? What? The way I'm describing what? — James Riley

CRT is the news of the day here. It brought race back into the limelight recently.

Alright, well here we go.

Where you deep in the heart of the conservative south when you learned all about that in public schools? Down south? Asking for myself. — James Riley

No, I went to school and grew up in an upper-middle class area of Massachusetts in the suburbs. I think they taught us US history in middle and high school. We did do a bit of history in Elementary school as well.

On to the main topic:

In any case, I just want to say if all you're asking for a type of education analogous to holocaust education that seems reasonable. I looked further into that 1919 Oklahoma massacre and it would definitely be interesting to study and understand the roots and causes of the massacre. Between 150-200 blacks were killed which makes it a very significant massacre.

You also keep accusing me of straw-manning you but I've never claimed to know or understand your exact positions so I wish you'd stop doing that. I don't know exactly what you believe. As far as I'm concerned we're not debating now, we're discussing.

First, the Germans have done an outstanding job of educating themselves about their history and what their forefathers did. They don't sweep it under the rug like many (not all) whites do about slavery, Indians, etc. But let's not play "favorites" with the Holocaust. Many other horrors were perpetrated on this Earth that did not involve Jews. Blacks have suffered some of it. Let's go deep in the heart of Dixie and set up half of what the Germans have set up regarding the holocaust, deep in the heart of Germany, where it happened. — James Riley

You bring up a good point here - the Germans did make serious amends over their past and they've got some very good Holocaust education over there. In other countries like Romania, Lithuania, and Latvia this is not the case. To this day I am very suspicious of Latvian and Lithuanian nationalists. I understand, maybe, to an extent -- if I was being educated in these countries and they were negligent or unwilling to talk about this topic I would definitely be frustrated.

If I had to guess, I'd say the reason whites aren't crazy about engaging on slavery is that a good chunk of them have no ancestral tie in with the institution. I have as much in common with you from a cultural/racial standpoint as I have with a Southern Anglo-Saxon or Scotch-Irish person. I share neither their heritage, religion, nor culture. None of my family has lived down South, nor did they even arrive here until the 20th century. We did spend a long time on slavery on my US history class though, but I have no idea how this topic is handled down South.

Hmmm. I was getting a paternal vibe about what we should be teaching in school or encouraging blacks to focus on. — James Riley

I am only commenting about public school teaching here. I am in no position to make any sort of definitive judgments on how blacks ought to perceive themselves or their history - that is their issue. However, if we bring critical race theory into public schools it becomes my issue because it's now being pushed by the state. From the way you're describing it though, it almost seems like it's a branding issue - call it something else, not critical race theory.

The intercession is NOT some white bread MFr coming in with a bunch of BS about bootstraps and hard work, and suits and ties and hair cuts and whatnot. It's more along the lines of what was done to make the Jewish state a success. — James Riley

I like that approach.

And yet you are out trying to get the abled to be concerned about the rights of the disabled? Should I just be clueless about the ADA and tell those folks they need to tone it down before I get annoyed? Why don't you just focus on their anecdotal economic success stories? — James Riley

Honestly, the bulk of what we do is we just help raise money for our cause - which goes directly to disabled people who need financial help with treatment. We do a bit of education but it's not really our main focus. And we do focus on anecdotal economic success stories because people need role models. The ADA rarely gets enforced at least when it comes to the particular disability I focus on, but regardless I don't expect to wake up one day and have stigma & prejudice just disappear. It'll always be there; oppression will always be there, but I am not defined by it nor am I helpless in facing it. If someone makes a stupid comment towards my condition I'll educate them, and I'll react to it like I'm talking to a small, dumb child.

Teach about oppression all you want; it's certainly out there in the world - it's a fact. It's entirely about you handle it and move forward. Kids are impressionable and we need to be careful with this.

EDIT: CRT in schools undermines Enlightment era liberalism and this - to many people, myself included - is something to be very cautious of before doing. I've never heard of Holocaust education faced with this accusation.

And, whether they agree with it or not, I think it's a good idea. — James Riley

Sure - don't forget, but also don't base your whole mentality around it. The Nazi hunters are all dead now and last one died out around a decade ago, it's just not a thing anymore in the Jewish community. I don't remember the last time I heard it mentioned. We should "never forget" events like the Holocaust because there are important lessons in it apart from the incredibly obvious "they went after the Jews!" There's really so many other important lessons about humanity revealed in studies of the Holocaust. There's definitely a strand of the "never forgive, never forget" attitude in Judaism but I would regard it as toxic. Do we never forgive the German people? Seriously?

Whatever they are is not for you to say. The question is, what are you? Are you a victimized skin color for feeling put-upon by those who support black push-back? — James Riley

You're right that it is not my place to tell black people what they "are." I was speaking to you as a person - a person who is a collection of traits - and I was asking you if one victimized trait makes one a victim.

I don't consider myself a victimized skin color. I've had very little to say about BLM. I've never really felt put-upon by those supporting the black push-back but if they were to get very pushy and aggressive about it I would be annoyed.

I would tell them that BLM is not my fight. I have my own fight as I'm part of a non-profit that pushes for disability rights. Even if I did join I'd just be another clueless white person marching for something they'll never understand.

Of course I want history taught honestly, but a history that presents America as being racist to the bone without any hope for black success outside of sports or entertaining is a really chilling cultural message to send. I think we can do better for our young people. Do you see how beliefs like that lead to toxic behavior? I'd certainly be toxic if that's what I was taught to me about how my people are treated in this nation. Violence becomes rational.

Our public schools should, but don't. Were you taught about the recently-in-the-new Oklahoma massacre? I wasn't. — James Riley

I've known about the Oklahoma massacre for years because I love history, but it's been 13 or so years since I've been in a history classroom so my memory isn't too clear. We were certainly taught about slavery, how blacks were treated under Reconstruction, the Civil Rights movement, and other topics but certainly if schools aren't teaching this then that's a problem. In regard to the massacre, it's about how you present it though. "Blacks were victimized and white people in Oklahoma did horrible things." - Fine, that's true. "Black economic success is worthless because whites just tore it down" -- incredibly destructive message. Child abuse.

You mean like the Jews? — James Riley

The central lesson of Jewish history and the cultural message should never be taught as "never forgive, never forget" and if you think that's how Jews teach their own history then you're clueless (I am speaking as someone who went through a considerable Jewish education.)

Look, the black victims are not "newly-anointed." — James Riley

But black people aren't just black. Is that all they are? A victimized skin color? Are they right to declare themselves -- as complex persons -- victims? Is that how it works -- if there's one aspect of me that's victimized do I get to declare myself a victim and say "never forgive, never forget" to all those evil oppressors?

And they don't need to be told what to think. — James Riley

You're the one telling them to think of themselves as victims.

We don't need to teach "them." — James Riley

Our public schools do. Unless you just want separate black education.