Further demonstration that you haven't grasped the point. — Clarendon

The point being that "you can't get out what you don't put in?"

Then, explain to me the function of the following neurotransmitters -

• Dopamine
• Serotonin
• Norepinephrine
• GABA
• Glutamate
• Endorphins
• Cortisol


The point being that atoms must have consciousness?

then, explain to me why I cannot ask a rock how it is feeling?

that you can't get something for free. — Clarendon

Actually, our brains are the biggest consumers of energy in our body.

It's painfully simple. — Clarendon

There is nothing simple about the functioning of the human brain.

the arrangement — Clarendon

But it is not about the arrangement. See? You are the one who is not grasping the point.

Unless a new kind of property is already in the base, no amount of complexity - or whatever - will conjure it. That is the point you haven't grasped. — Clarendon

I grasped it, and rejected it. To ascribe a special property to atoms in the human brain, but not in all atoms, flies in the face of rational thinking. Consciousness is not conjured, but produced by the action of the neurons in the human brain. I suggest you do some reading about it.

reorganisation cannot create a new kind. — Clarendon

It was not an ad hominem. What goes on in a human brain is not "reorganization."

Complexity does not create new kinds of property. It only reorganises existing ones — Clarendon

i suspect you have very little understanding about the function of the brain.

You seem to be saying that subjective determination can have no basis. That makes no sense. — praxis

In this land of humans, there is nothing that exists except the subjective.

“What’s happening in Minnesota is wrong. There are no shades of grey.”

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DUlCU-Uig_2/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

A member of Congress has confirmed that Trump's name is in the Epstein files over a million times.

Raskin had access to the unredacted files.

an emotional position. — AmadeusD

Are you for real?

A complex is a combination. — AmadeusD

Review your grade 9 notes about the types of chemical equations. Now multiply that by a thousand and you'll have maybe a smidgeon of the chemistry that goes on in a human brain.

The human brain literally combines different atoms into microstructures, microstructures into brain areas and brain areas into hemispheres. — AmadeusD

You are talking structure, not function

It's all combination — AmadeusD

God, no. It's chemistry to electrical circuitry. it's on and off switches, and a whole lot of other things.

it's just perhaps counter to your preferred way of thinking about the mind. — AmadeusD

My preferred way relies on evidence.

The complex neurochemistry of the brain is not different from complex neurochemistry everywhere else — AmadeusD

Like where?

Is the suggestion that a certain level of complexity in a system magically generates a novel attribute? — AmadeusD

it's not magic. It's function from structure.

But your position seems to me magical thinking rather than some kind of mechanical explanation. — AmadeusD

No, the brain is not mechanical.

You seem to be saying that the human mind is so special that we can't apply general logical principles.

I wondering what it is about the human mind/consciouness (hint: not the brain) that leads you jettison that avenue when assessing the question? — AmadeusD

I would not use the word "special" - just different. Maybe it's the same thing.

The examples you mentioned are about combining. The human brain does not combine. It is involved in a highly complex chemistry - I would say the most complex chemistry that exists on this planet.

So, you see, your examples are not logical, but misinformed.

mere electrocchemistry. — AmadeusD

Here lies your error. It is not "mere" - for it produces every thought you have. F*cking amazing

what about, the human mind makes it so special that standard logic doesn't apply? — AmadeusD

I think I have already answered this. Its highly complex electrochemistry

400,000 non-mammals combining together wont make a mammal.
65 non-sugar crystals wont make a dissacharide carbohydrate
100 white people wont make a black person
3,545,654,646 thoughts don't make an object. — AmadeusD

irrelevant.

there is nothing like a human mind.

How that happens needs to be explained. — Patterner

Science is working on it! But to come up with the answer that, "atoms must be conscious" is an absurd conclusion to make.

Is it only atoms in the human brain that have this magical ability? How about the atoms in a rock? Why don't they get this magical ability?

It's fascinating how the anti-Trump mind works. — NOS4A2

I consider it the pro-truth mind.

But it needs good education and philosophical training — Corvus

Thanks for the encouragement! I will follow up!!

Its a person using language to manipulate — Philosophim

You really need to shrug off this sense of victimization.

I am sure when people speak their truth, they are not thinking about you.

It won't be long before they'll start condemning Trump as a rat and a bad friend. — NOS4A2

Maybe he is?

Anyway, about that bridge ... still waiting on your response to that.

But consciousness is not brain or neurons. It is not atoms or particles. — Corvus

No, atoms, molecules, neurons, brain - that is structure. But when engaged in its highly complex function - that produces consciousness. A brain has to be working to produce awareness.

It needs personal history, emotions, thoughts and reasoning and imagination as well as linguistic abilities which are backed by past memories of living individual. — Corvus

And doesn't that just make the brain all the more the marvel of human evolution?

Pictures of Trump and Epstein — NOS4A2

You're completely ignoring Trump's actions. You're completely ignoring the cover-up. You're completely ignoring a vast body of information that shows Trump is a scumbag.

Science tries to explain how information is processed in what path of the neurons conjunction to which part of brain, when they claim to be explaining consciousness. — Corvus

I don't think it is so much "explaining" as finding the structural source for it.

It does not touch anything about what consciousness is. — Corvus

Since we all have it, we know what consciousness is. The role of science is to try to link consciousness - the function - with the structure - the brain.

That’s right. The former Governor of the Bank of England and now Prime Minister of Canada photographed with child-sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell, just hanging out at music festival in 2013. No big deal. — NOS4A2

By all accounts, they were not "hanging out." They barely knew one another. In the Epstein files, there is no direct communication between Epstein and Carney. What you're presenting here is not even a good try. So transparently desperate to take the heat off where it should be.

You do understand that Trump and his administration is engaged in an active cover-up of the largest sex-trafficking scandal and influence pedaling scandal in US history?

Lol, the right is pretty desperate.

I am confident that Carney has nothing to explain.

you lot — NOS4A2

Really? You lot?

your story. — NOS4A2

It's not my story. It is the story of a 1000 abused, raped and exploited girls.

Even though Trump thinks it is just about him.

Will you recall this information — NOS4A2

What? Trump's lies?

will you bury it deep in your psyche? — NOS4A2

You're misguided, judging me instead of Trump.

But anyway, what is your response to Trump's rant about the bridge?

Do you think he is just angling to get the bridge named after him?

Do you understand that after years of US inaction, Canada stepped in and solved an American infrastructure failure?

Do you agree that a US president cannot seize a foreign-owned bridge on a whim? Or suddenly demand half of its ownership?

What do you think of Trump’s lies on this one?

His claim of “no US content” is a flat-out lie. The bridge used US steel, US labour, US contractors and hundreds of US suppliers.

Obama did not secretly waive anything for Canada. Trump did in 2019 – within existing trade agreements.

When Trump says the “US gets nothing” – they get a modernized trade corridor, and thousands of Michigan jobs, at zero construction cost.

And the Chinese government has no control over hockey (it’s just called hockey – not “ice” hockey) or the Stanley Cup.

Mark Carny did absolutely nothing. — NOS4A2

It's Carney. I'm not sure what you're talking about, or why you are mentioning Carney, (who became the Canadian PM in 2025), in this context. What's he got to do with Epstein?

Lol, using what Trump says to exonerate him. Don't you know everything he says is a lie?

The Gordie Howe International Bridge – a new international artery between Michigan and Ontario - is nearly ready to open. Construction began in 2018, during Trump’s first term, just over seventeen months after Trump and Trudeau’s joint statement of support for the project.

The bridge was financed by Canada, used both US and Canadian steel, and is publicly owned by the governments of Canada and Michigan, but now Trump wants to hold it hostage in one of his extortion schemes. This lying sack of corruption is seriously bent.

(or maybe just desperate – re: Epstein files)

Here’s what he posted on his social media yesterday –

As everyone knows, the Country of Canada has treated the United States very unfairly for decades. Now, things are turning around for the U.S.A., and FAST! But imagine, Canada is building a massive bridge between Ontario and Michigan. They own both the Canada and the United States side and, of course, built it with virtually no U.S. content. President Barack Hussein Obama stupidly gave them a waiver so they could get around the BUY AMERICAN Act, and not use any American products, including our Steel. Now, the Canadian Government expects me, as President of the United States, to PERMIT them to just “take advantage of America!” What does the United States of America get — Absolutely NOTHING! Ontario won't even put U.S. spirits, beverages, and other alcoholic products, on their shelves, they are absolutely prohibited from doing so and now, on top of everything else, Prime Minister Carney wants to make a deal with China — which will eat Canada alive. We’ll just get the leftovers! I don't think so. The first thing China will do is terminate ALL Ice Hockey being played in Canada, and permanently eliminate The Stanley Cup. The Tariffs Canada charges us for our Dairy products have, for many years, been unacceptable, putting our Farmers at great financial risk. I will not allow this bridge to open until the United States is fully compensated for everything we have given them, and also, importantly, Canada treats the United States with the Fairness and Respect that we deserve. We will start negotiations, IMMEDIATELY. With all that we have given them, we should own, perhaps, at least one half of this asset. The revenues generated because of the U.S. Market will be astronomical. Thank you for your attention to this matter!
PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP

I notice you both take issue with my other example, but offer nothing against my main point.

We cannot discuss anything physical in regards to consciousness. — Patterner

The two main scientific theories that are used to help explain consciousness would disagree with this.

Integrated Information in Discrete Dynamical Systems: Motivation and Theoretical Framework

We have suggested that consciousness has to do with a system's capacity to generate integrated information. This suggestion stems from considering two basic properties of consciousness: (i) each conscious experience generates a large amount of information, by ruling out alternative experiences; and (ii) the information is integrated, meaning that it cannot be decomposed into independent parts. We introduce a measure that quantifies how much integrated information is generated by a discrete dynamical system in the process of transitioning from one state to the next. The measure captures the information generated by the causal interactions among the elements of the system, above and beyond the information generated independently by its parts. We present numerical analyses of basic examples, which match well against neurobiological evidence concerning the neural substrates of consciousness. The framework establishes an observer-independent view of information by taking an intrinsic perspective on interactions.

https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000091


Conscious Processing and the Global Neuronal Workspace Hypothesis

We review the central tenets and neuroanatomical basis of the global neuronal workspace (GNW) hypothesis, which attempts to account for the main scientific observations regarding the elementary mechanisms of conscious processing in the human brain. The GNW hypothesis proposes that, in the conscious state, a non-linear network ignition associated with recurrent processing amplifies and sustains a neural representation, allowing the corresponding information to be globally accessed by local processors. We examine this hypothesis in light of recent data that contrast brain activity evoked by either conscious or non-conscious contents, as well as during conscious or non-conscious states, particularly general anesthesia. We also discuss the relationship between the intertwined concepts of conscious processing, attention, and working memory.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627320300520

is that you can't get out what you don't put in. — Clarendon

by combining — Clarendon

as our brains are made out of atoms, then either atoms have consciousness (or are disposed to) or brains simply can't have consciousness. — Clarendon

With respect to consciousness, to say “you can’t get out what you don’t put in” neglects the highly complex electrochemical functioning of the human brain. To reduce this function to “atoms combining” is to not take into account that the human brain is comprised of around 86 billion highly specialized neurons, one with up to thousands of connections to others, performing highly synchronized and regulated electrochemical processes, involving highly complex molecules. Brain waves arise from the overall co-ordination of this vast functioning in neuronal networks between specialized brain regions.

To say that atoms must be conscious in accounting for human consciousness is like saying atoms must be able to move because muscles can.

MAGA-enthusiast — ssu

"Imagine being so hateful that you can't hear joy, just because it is in Spanish."

“If you are seriously threatened by a performance that celebrates diversity and tolerance and love and joy, maybe America is not the right place for you.”

Objective truths are those that are explained by math and physics. Sometimes I even wonder about that. And really, how much does all that impact on your daily life? We live in our experiences. Maybe all truth is subjective, because it does not exist outside of a subject (the human mind).

Anyway, some believe that subjective truth doesn’t exist. They are reluctant to apply the word “truth” to human thought. (It’s almost like I sense a fear of any who have a different truth from them.) They dismiss the idea that a human mind can have a relationship with truth, a relationship which involves a bigger commitment (and often a passion) to one’s position – "going all in."

For example, we may speak of activists “living their truths” and thus forwarding progress in society.

But of course, sometimes there are questions about the value or rightness of one person’s subjective truth. However, that does not change the fact that the truth is true to the subject. If it fits that definition, it is truth.

The only criterion required to call a human position a subjective truth is that it be true to the subject.

I learned a new word this week - shraddha – a term derived from two Sanskrit roots: shrat meaning "truth," "heart" or "faithfulness," and dha, meaning "to direct one’s mind toward."

https://www.yogapedia.com/definition/5360/shraddha

Shradda -

"is literally 'that which is placed in the heart,' : all the beliefs we hold so deeply that we do not think to question them. It is the set of values, axioms, prejudices, and prepossessions that colors our perceptions, governs our thinking, dictates our responses, and shapes our lives, generally without our even being aware of its presence and power. This may sound philosophical, but shradda is not an intellectual abstraction. It is our very substance."

Ecknath Easwaran, The Bhagavad Gita, Introduction, p. 63 (Nilgiri Press 2007)

There’s not really an equivalent English word. In the Western tradition, the best we can do in a similar vein is refer to our subjective truths. We all have our subjective truths.

If I determine that something is true to me, I’m not sure how anyone else can effectively contradict that (in any case, it would require they call on their own subjective truth).

On that note, watching Bad Bunny’s Superbowl halftime show (the most watched halftime show in its history) – it came to me – the show was an expression of the performers’ truth – and also another truth became apparent – that love and joy can be political acts.

If you missed the show, you can watch it on YouTube -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6FuWd4wNd8&list=RDG6FuWd4wNd8&start_radio=1

Hunter Hess, a young Olympian, was asked what it feels like to represent the United States at the Olympics this year.

He answered with his truth.

He said it feels complicated. He said it feels a little hard. He said he’s proud of his family and his friends and the people who raised him, but he cannot pretend he’s proud of everything happening back home. He said what any emotionally intact adult would say if they were asked to hold the flag in one hand and the headlines in the other.

Trump stepped in and called him a loser. A Tennessee Rep told him to shut up and go play in the snow. Strangers filled online comments sections with venom. Truth was not expected, or wanted, from him. All that was expected of him was to pretend and perform.

Does waving an American flag now mean surrendering your humanity?

"My truth" is usually an expression of the speaker's self-regard when making a statement of little importance. — Ciceronianus

Maybe i am speaking as a writer. i write stories. And the only good stories are the ones that captures some of the writer's truth.

why does anyone else have to care, acknowledge or acquiesce to it? — AmadeusD

Uh no, just let them live, or just ignore them.

Certainly do not make arbitrary rules that they are no longer allowed to serve in the US military.

Because there is no such thing as "my truth". There are your opinions and feelings. — AmadeusD

I have my subjective truths. Here are a few of them. I have no hesitancy in saying they are truths.

I am a cisgender female. My mother loves me. My sisters will never abandon me. Being caregiver to my disabled husband was the most important thing I have ever done. Everyone is doing the very best they can. Honesty produces better outcomes than falsehood. Givers are happier than takers. Newborn infants are perfect...

These are a few of my truths. I've got overwhelming evidence - 60+ years of observation and analysis to support my truths.

And if someone begins their litany by saying "I am a transgender..."

That is their truth. And it has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Can someone be mistaken in your view? Even wrong? — Banno

Subjective truth can for sure be wrong. Just look at racists. That they are superior is whole-heartedly true to them, but would be false to me. But it makes their subjective truth no less true to them.

But being racist is applying what you wrongly believe about others into your world-view. Such is not the case with transgender persons. Their subjective truth is only about themselves. They are not judging others. it is the others who are judging them.

It’s people who do not accept the personal truth of others who are the power-trippers.

What I have observed is that those who object to anyone living by their own truth do so because they want those people to live by the objector’s own subjective truth, which they conveniently claim to be objective truth.

This is clear with the transgender issue.

Peak anti-Trumpism is becoming more and more common. — NOS4A2

You're out of the loop.

No-one - and I mean no-one - has put more targets on the backs of people than Donald Trump.

And his best friend was a pedophile.