Perhaps more the relationship of language to world. Don't you agree? — RussellA

You had said he puts mind at the center of reality, and language at the center of mind. That's why I thought the ultimate relationship would be mind to world. No?

I see. So Austin doesn't want sense data because it interferes with the way he envisions the relationship between mind and world?

As Austin is speaking from a position of Linguistic Idealism, Sense and Sensibilia should be read bearing this in mind. — RussellA

Could you explain what that is?

Wanna go out for a few beers tonight? — BC

Sure. I'll be right over. I've decided the world doesn't need to be saved. It's pretty much whatever it's supposed to be.

maybe I was of the the last comrades still standing? — BC

It just seems like that would be the reason to maintain contact, not sever it.

So sad. :groan:

It would be so great to have a time machine and go to the future when the mind is more fully understood. :smile:

I've been a small-time victim of a woke-leftist (whom I counted as a good friend). I rejected the necessity of the working class acquiring marxist enlightenment as a necessary prerequisite to solving the environmental crisis of global warming. "If that's the way you think," he said, "I never want to talk to you again!" and he hasn't. — BC

That's crazy. Maybe you popped his hope-balloon and he couldn't forgive you?

I'll still vote for Biden over Trump, but let's not pretend things have gone well in the last four years. There's a reason Biden is losing to Trump in numerous polls. — RogueAI

I think it's mainly because large numbers of Americans are nuts.

The world has gone to shit under his watch. Afghanistan was a humiliating debacle. The border situation is a festering wound. The Democrat NY mayor says New York might be "destroyed" by an influx of migrants. Americans are still reeling from historically high inflation. There's a stench of corruption around his whole family. Stores are pulling out of Democratic run ci — RogueAI

Sounds terrible. Although inflation is down. The Fed is probably through raising rates.

Biden will be the nominee unless he decides not the run. I think he's doing an excellent job. Do I wish he was younger? Yes. Every year after 80 is a year of decline toward the drain for most people.

The condemnation due to Israel is rather due to their broader historical role in creating the situation, not simply that there has been an attempt to destroy Hamas at all. They are at fault in that they helped create Hamas and the situation they find themselves in, not because they are using military force to remove a hostile government that carried out an attack against their population. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Do you think Israel would have been more brutal and careless about civilian casualties if they'd been unhampered by international pressure and hostages?

my position is due to the clear and powerful emphasis that jesus places on the afterlife and avoiding hell. he preaches a hard line. do you disagree? — BitconnectCarlos

His predominant message was about love and forgiveness when he wasn't talking about the end of the world. Yes, the afterlife comes up from time to time, but Jesus didn't inject that into Judaism. It was already there.

with Jesus his teachings tends to focus more attaining the ideal even if it puts one at great danger. — BitconnectCarlos

Where is this in the gospels?

Did you make an argument for the gospels being life-denying? I didn't see that.

Jesus is unquestionably life-denying if we regard his teachings in the gospels as accurate representations of his thought. — BitconnectCarlos

No, I don't think so. I think you misunderstood something.

Yet, again, it seems that you and me, are the ones who are interested in 'hallucination' regarding this topic, Frank. — javi2541997

I couldn't conclude that we never see things correctly due to the possibility of hallucination. Detecting an hallucination presupposes that at some point I determined what was real to some suitable level of certainty.

What the possibility of hallucination does is confirm that there certainly is very good reason to occasionally doubt what you're seeing. For instance, a 15 year old boy with new onset schizophrenia tells his parents that he's hearing voices telling him to do harm to the people around him. He is in a state of doubt. He's looking for guidance. If he finds himself in the 21st century, the people around him will tell him the voices aren't real. If it was the year 1410, he would be told that he is possessed. So the resolution of his doubt really comes down to the hinge propositions of his time. It does not come down to some absurd rule that there's never reason to doubt your senses.

But indirect realism isn't a matter of saying that we never see what's real. The indirect realist does believe she has access to the truth. She just thinks her access to truth is indirect by her definition of indirectness. You don't have to be a direct realist to be a realist. Obviously.

Sometimes there is reason to doubt what you're experiencing, say if they just gave you ketamine and you're now convinced you're a character in a video game, screaming "I'm not real! I'm not real!" That happened, btw.

But if no one is telling you that you're drugged and hallucinating, you probably would just take the whatever as real.

but a history whose basis and sense is rethought in every epoche. This is the sense of the genealogical for Nietzsche. — Joshs

I don't think he's trying to let each "epoche" speak for itself. He's myth making to explain why we have directly opposing conceptions of goodness. His answer is that it's our heritage, built into our language. One could easily swap that answer with something about the structure of the human psyche.

For sure, they are not going to do you any good. — Banno

:grin:

It depends on what the goals of those countries are. Are they expansionist? Are they threatening other Western countries and/or countries that are friendly to Western interests? Do they fund anti-West terrorists? The West should definitely be antagonistic towards China, Russia, Iran, and N. Korea. — RogueAI

I think we'll find reason to be at odds with each other one way or another.

Might lead to qualia — Banno

That might be painful.

If you don't let go of the past, your heart won't have any room for the present

Waking from a dream.

Rising to the surface as a sun, exhaling streams of light

Making the world

Is a loveless job

:cool:

I'm a big fan of Nietzsche. I feel a connection to his writing that goes deep, like into the realm of dreams. He was the forerunner of people like Freud and Jung. Like you, I'm fascinated by the way consciousness evolves, but I think we're limited to metaphors in describing that. Historical accuracy isn't required or called for by Nietzsche's project. That was my point, I guess.

This quickly becomes a precarious topic because on the one hand, Judaism is possibly the most influential orientation of consciousness in human history. On the other hand there are huge, unhealable wounds that humanity bears that are touched upon by the OP.

And for someone who has been called out for not knowing much of anything, but rather just running their mouth, I'd wager you've not read much of Nietzsche at all — Vaskane

Yea, but that was by someone who's not all that bright himself. :razz:

That provides Nietzsche with a less bias fiction on what happened. — Vaskane

He didn't know anything about the Bronze age because little was known about it at the time. I remember overlooking a fair amount of false conclusions from him, though I'd have to look back at it to remember details. My take was that his outlook should be taken as myth making. There is truth in there, but it's not necessarily based on facts on the ground. I'd go with MI Finley over Nietzsche as far as history goes.

I would just say it's important to take Nietzsche's history with a grain of salt, not just because of his own attitude regarding the mythical nature of truth, but because there was much information about the ancient world that just wasn't known at the time.

Isn’t it true you can’t have it both ways, you either have universal rights and liberal principles are a thing or they are not. — schopenhauer1

Do you mean the west should be antagonistic toward countries that don't value rights and liberal principles?

You can measure anything as a standard for what makes an enemy- ideology, religion, power. For much of history it was power. In the West, religion and ideology gradually replaced power alone, but certainly, power was never dead as a reason. — schopenhauer1

Exactly. Where there are multiple cultures in competition, there are two primary survival tactics: military prowess and intolerance of foreign ways. It's shouldn't surprise us that the world is now full of both. It could be seen as a kind of natural selection.

When one religion claims to have superior knowledge of "how things really are", this is an automatic declaration of war to all other religions.” — Joshs

What we know is that there was no religious intolerance throughout most of the ancient world. That changed when monotheism and the concept of false gods became prevalent. It's probably overly simplistic to say the Jews were responsible for that. It's probably more that the western world in general went through a transformation that the Jews had gone through much earlier.

Either way, that transformation was accompanied by a new emphasis on truth and an association of falseness with evil.

The element of being literate and educated certainly played a part but it should not be ignored that great efforts were made to convert them to Christianity or confine their civic rights and participation. — Paine

@Jamal

True. Around the turn of the 20th Century, the Germans tried mandatory education for Jewish children to force assimilation. It didn't work. The USA would later use the same tactic on the Lakota. It destroyed their culture.

But by the 1500s the Italians provided Europe with banking to finance wars and what not.

I think the stereotype of the money-minded Jew comes from the fact that they were usually wealthier (and more educated) than the local peasants. Envy, basically.

Philo Judaeus, a Jewish Plantonist was the first to synthesize faith with reason creating the Logos philosophy, which is responsible for the Evangel of John. Philo’s primary importance is in the development of the philosophical and theological foundations of Christianity. — Vaskane

I read about him. Fascinating guy.

Cool! Thanks.

It's what we do? — Banno

Maybe it comes from an analysis of what we do. Where does the framework for that analysis come from? Not sure.

The Law of excluded middle is not a rule? i don't follow. — Banno

It is. There's just no fact about whether you've ever followed it.

Strange, to think of laws of logic as discoveries or the results of evolution. — Banno

It's not rule following. It's probably something innate.

Would you agree that the varieties of contemporary anti-semitism expressed by the likes of Henry Ford, Heidegger, Hamas, Charles Lindburgh, Kanye West and Louis Farrakhan have less to do with the judaism of the middle ages than with their interpretation of the motives and practices of the modern world Jewish community? — Joshs

Sure. I was trying to explain earlier that anti-Semitism has to be understood with reference to the problems and stressors of the times in which individual cases of it appear.

I know. Likewise, progressive American Christianity is fairly interfaith.

You're fond of taking the high ground and lecturing people about what they have to do to know the stuff that you know, but your posts show very little evidence of having a clue about anything, to be frank. — Jamal

Was there something specific you disagreed with?