Searle believes that brain matter has some special biological property that enables mental states to have intrinsic intentionality as opposed to the mere derived intentionality that printed texts and the symbols algorithmically manipulated by computers have. But if robots and people would exhibit the same forms of behavior and make the same reports regarding their own phenomenology, how would we know that we aren't also lacking what it is that the robots allegedly lack? — Pierre-Normand
Are biologically active molecules not in some ways also "symbols" ie structures which "say" something - exert a particular defined or prescribed effect. — Benj96
However, my point was about the relevance of isomorphisms. Pointing out that there can be irrelevant isomorphisms such as between a constellation and a swarm of insects, doesn't change the fact that there are relevant isomorphism. (Such as between the shape of bird wings and airplane wings, or between biological neural nets and artificial neural nets.) — wonderer1
Since artificial neural networks are designed for information processing which is to a degree isomorphic to biological neural networks, this doesn't seem like a very substantive objection to me. It's not merely a coincidence. — wonderer1
Consider the system reply and the robot reply to Searle's Chinese Room argument. Before GPT-4 was released, I was an advocate of the robot reply, myself, and thought the system reply had a point but was also somewhat misguided. In the robot reply, it is being conceded to Searle that the robot's "brain" (the Chinese Room) doesn't understand anything. But the operation of the robot's brain enables the robot to engage in responsive behavior (including verbal behavior) that manifests genuine understanding of the language it uses. — Pierre-Normand
I'm not sure how that follows. The authors of the paper you linked made a good point about the liabilities of iteratively training LLMs with the synthetic data that they generated. That's a common liability for human beings also, who often lock themselved into epistemic bubbles or get stuck in creative ruts. Outside challenges are required to keep the creative flame alive. — Pierre-Normand
their training data and interactions with humans do ground their language use in the real world to some degree. Their cooperative interactions with their users furnish a form of grounding somewhat in line with Gareth Evans' consumer/producer account of the semantics of proper names — Pierre-Normand
Unless, consciousness is a product of complexity. As we still don't know what makes matter aware or animate, we cannot exclude the possibility that it is complexity of information transfer that imbues this "sensation". If that is the case, and consciousness is indeed high grades of negativity entropy, then its not so far fetched to believe that we can create it in computers . — Benj96
..embodiment, episodic memory, personal identity and motivational autonomy. Those all are things that we can see that they lack (unlike mysterious missing ingredients like qualia or "consciousness" that we can't even see fellow human beings to have). Because they are lacking in all of those things, the sorts of intelligence and understanding that they manifest is of a radically different nature than our own. But it's not thereby mere simulacrum - and it is worth investigating, empirically and philosophically, what those differences amount to. — Pierre-Normand
Of course, this is all still quite different from the way human cognition works, with our [sic] biological neural networks and their own unique patterns of parallel and serial processing. And there's still much debate and uncertainty around the nature of machine intelligence and understanding.
But I think the transformer architecture provides a powerful foundation for integrating information and dynamically shifting attention in response to evolving goals and contexts. It allows for a kind of flexible, responsive intelligence that goes beyond simple serial processing. — Pierre-Normand
But then, the actor's ability to imitate the discourse of a physicist would slowly evolve into a genuine understanding of the relevant theories. I believe that intellectual understanding, unlike the ability to feel pain or enjoy visual experiences, cannot be perfectly imitated without the imitative ability evolving into a form of genuine understanding. — Pierre-Normand
there remains a stark distinction between the flexible behavior of an AI that can "understand" an intellectual domain well enough to respond intelligently to any question about it, and an actor who can only fool people lacking that understanding. — Pierre-Normand
But you could say the same about me. Am I a simulation or a duplication of what another human might say in response to your commentary? — Benj96
The second thing is how do we give it both "an objective" but also "free auto-self-augementation" in order to reason. And curiously, could that be the difference between something that feels/experiences and something that is lifeless, programmed and instructed? — Benj96
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." — Pierre-Normand
For them to see when standing what we see when hanging upside down it must be that their eyes and/or brain work differently. — Michael
I’m saying that whether or not sugar tastes sweet is determined by the animal’s biology. It’s not “right” for it to taste sweet and “wrong” for it to taste sour. Sight is no different. It’s not “right” that light with a wavelength of 700nm looks red and not “right” that the sky is “up” and the ground “down”. These are all just consequences of our biology, and different organisms with different biologies can experience the world differently. — Michael
It is neither a contradiction, nor physically impossible, for some organism to have that very same veridical visual experience when standing on their feet. It only requires that their eyes and/or brain work differently to ours.
Neither point of view is "more correct" than the other.
Photoreception isn't special. It's as subjective as smell and taste — Michael
Some thoughts: I take it that Direct Realists must, to a least a large degree, accept Physicalism. — AmadeusD
If that is so, these are brain states, not dispositions. They are emergent, in experience, as an attitude or disposition, but are in fact, specific physical states of hte brain in relation to whatever objects are in question. So, a DI could plausibly argue that those states are conditions necessary for whatever experience they are calling veridical. The state + the object = the experience. That seems direct enough.
I reject all of this, though. — AmadeusD
This raises a deeper question for the common-factor theorist: if perceptual experience is just a matter of inner sensations or representations caused by some stimulus, what makes it a perception "of" anything in the external world at all? What are the conditions of satisfaction that determine whether a perceptual experience is veridical or not — whether it matches mind-independent reality?
The common-factor view seems to lack the resources to answer this question. There's no way to directly compare an inner perceptual representation with an outer state of affairs to see if they match. Representational content and veridicality conditions can't be grounded in purely internal phenomenal character.
The disjunctivist, in contrast, can ground perceptual content and veridicality in the perceiver's embodied capacities for successful interaction with their environment. Consider the experience of seeing an apple as within reach. On the disjunctivist view, the phenomenal character of this experience isn't exhausted by an inner sensation or mental image. Rather, it consists in your very readiness to engage with the apple — your expectation that you can successfully reach out and grasp it.
This means that the content of the perceptual experience is inherently action-oriented and world-involving. It includes an implicit reference to your bodily abilities and their anticipated successful deployment in the environment. The experience is veridical just in case this perceptual-motor expectation is fulfilled — that is, just in case your body is actually attuned to the apple's affordances in the way your experience presents it as being. — Pierre-Normand
Not identical in what way? — hypericin
Why can't she expereince ammonia when there is none? Moreover, how do you account for the case where Sue knows there is no ammonia, but still feels she is experiencing that identical smell? — hypericin
But then, all you can say that can provide a possible alternative construal of what the world is, is done in language. — Astrophel
Asked what something is, and there is language "ready to hand" for deployment. — Astrophel
Do you really think the world wears its symbolic possibilities "on its sleeve" so to speak? Or are these possibilities generated in social environments, making an alinguistic world — Astrophel
Certainly does NOT follow from the assumption that I never see the lamp. Not sure where this comes from. — Astrophel
I don't think perceptions are different from beliefs. All perceptions are apperceptions. When you see a cup, you know what it is IN the seeing, that is, the cup is already known prior to the seeing, and seeing it is a confirmation about the conformity between what you see and the predelineated "cupness" that you come into the perceptual encounter with that allows you to spontaneously without question or analysis note that it is indeed a cup — Astrophel
But a question that looks at the knowledge relation between me and my lamp and asks how it this possible? It is stunning in its simplicity as an existential query. I mean, forget philosophy. Two objects, a brain and a lamp. Causality fails instantly. So how? — Astrophel
You mention that this ambiguity allows us to stipulate perception in sense 1 but not sense 2 (hallucinating the lamp, or "seeing a lamp that isn't there"). But does it also support the reverse? That is, can I maintain that my sense-2 perception of the lamp is genuine, and a legitimate use of the word "perception," without committing myself to some story about how it supervenes (or otherwise connects) to a sense-1 perception? — J
how is knowledge that you see a lamp possible? — Astrophel
Light waves are not lamps. Nor is brain chemistry. — Astrophel
User
Ok, however, explaining what hallucinations and veridical experiences have in common cannot be a key issue for the disjunctivist, since, as you say, the disjunctivist wants to deny that they have something in common.
For Searle they do have something in common: e.g. brain events are constitutive for them as experiences, and they can be experientially indistinguishable.
If there is a key issue that needs to be explained or clarified in Searle's criticism of disjunctivism it might be his internalist account about the semantic content of intentional states that refer to external things.
Please clarify Searle's internalist account. If possible, in connection to his theory of perception on how external objects and states of affairs are perceived directly.
Relevant sources: Searle's book Seeing Things As They Are (2015), or Searle's openly available article Philosophy Of Perception And The Bad Argument (2018). — jkop
Response
You raise an excellent point about the key issue in Searle's critique of disjunctivism being his internalist account of intentional content, rather than what hallucinations and veridical experiences have in common. Let me try to clarify Searle's internalist view and how it relates to his direct realist theory of perception.
In his book Seeing Things As They Are, Searle argues for a direct realist view of perception, according to which we directly perceive external objects and states of affairs, unmediated by any intervening representations or sense data. When I visually perceive a yellow station wagon, the object of my perception - what I directly see - is the actual car itself in the external world.
At the same time, Searle maintains an internalist view of intentional content. The intentional content of a perceptual experience - what the experience is about or directed at - is determined by internal factors in the subject's brain/mind. It is not constituted by any external objects or relations to them.
Searle uses the "brain in a vat" thought experiment to argue for this internalism. If my brain were in a vat being fed perceptual experiences qualitatively identical to my current ones, those experiences would have the same intentional contents, even though they would fail to refer to any actual external objects. What fixes the representational content of experience are internal neurobiological features, not external relations.
So in the case of hallucination, the intentional content is the same as in a matching veridical perception, because the internal brain processes are the same. The difference is that in hallucination, the experience fails to refer to any actual object.
Searle sees his internalism about content as compatible with direct realism, because he argues perceptual experiences have two levels of content:
The intentional content fixed internally by brain processes
The directly perceived external objects/states of affairs themselves, when the intentional content is "satisfied" or "made true" by those objects/states of affairs successfully referred to.
In veridical perception, both levels of content are present. In total hallucination, only the first level is present. But either way, the intentional content itself is determined internally.
This is a tricky balance to strike, and there is certainly room to question whether Searle succeeds in coherently combining internalism about perceptual content with direct realism. But that seems to be the key thrust of his view and his critique of disjunctivism. Disjunctivists want to say veridical and hallucinatory experiences have fundamentally different contents, while Searle maintains they have the same narrow intentional contents, just different referential relations to the external world. — Claude 3 Opus
The intentional content of a perceptual experience - what the experience is about or directed at - is determined by internal factors in the subject's brain/mind. It is not constituted by any external objects or relations to them. — Claude 3 Opus
The experience sets conditions of satisfaction, and these conditions are those under which the experience is veridical as opposed to those conditions under which it is not veridical. Confining ourselves to seeing the tree in front of me we can say that the conditions of satisfaction of the visual experience are that there has to be a tree there and the fact that the tree is there is causing in a certain way the current visual experience. So on this account the visual experience in its conditions of satisfaction is causally self-reflexive in that the causal condition refers to the perceptual experience itself. .....
This type of intentionality is also unusual in that the conscious visual experience gives me a direct presentation of its conditions of satisfaction. Perception differs from such philosophers' favorites as beliefs and desires, because they are in an ordinary sense 'representations' of their conditions of satisfaction. There are important differences between representations and presentations. Perhaps the most important is that the presentation cannot be separated from its conditions of satisfaction in a way that representations can. If I believe that it is raining I can separate my belief from the fact that it is raining, but when I see the tree I cannot separate the visual experience from an awareness of the presence of the tree. This is true even if it is a hallucination and even if I know that it is a hallucination. In such a case, I have the experience of the perceptual presentation of an object even though there is no object there. A great deal of philosophical confusion surrounds this last point.... — Searle
Reply
You raise an excellent point. I agree that in the context of our discussion about Searle's criticism of disjunctivism, both views assume direct realism and reject the idea that veridical perceptual experiences involve representations.
So you're right that there isn't a need to invoke representational content to explain misrepresentation in this context, since veridical experiences are taken to directly present objects rather than represent them. The disjunctivist can allow that hallucinations have representational content while denying this for veridical perceptions.
I think I slipped into talking about perceptual content and misrepresentation because those notions are so commonly invoked in discussions of perceptual experience, but you're absolutely correct that they aren't relevant given the shared direct realist assumptions here.
The key issue is explaining what hallucinations and veridical perceptions have in common phenomenologically, without appealing to a common representational content. The disjunctivist wants to deny they have anything metaphysically in common, while Searle objects that this fails to account for their phenomenological indistinguishability.
Thanks for catching my error and helping to clarify the dialectic! Let me know if you have any other thoughts on this. It's a subtle issue and I appreciate you pushing me to be more precise. — Claude 3 Opus
The key issue is explaining what hallucinations and veridical perceptions have in common phenomenologically, without appealing to a common representational content. The disjunctivist wants to deny they have anything metaphysically in common, while Searle objects that this fails to account for their phenomenological indistinguishability. — Claude 3 Opus
The press there has more guarantees of freedom as well as more self-regulation than anywhere else I've heard of. — Vera Mont
User
Thanks. You write: "..rather than being different types of the same mental state (representational experience)." However, according to Searle the mental state is not a representational experience but a presentation of the perceived object (the intentionalistic sense of 'experience'). Do you agree or would you like to clarify what you mean by 'representational experience'?
Response
You raise a good point, and I appreciate the opportunity to clarify. In using the term "representational experience," I was referring to the idea that perceptual experiences represent or are about objects and properties in the world, rather than being mere sensations or qualia. This is a common view in the philosophy of perception, but you are correct that it may not align precisely with Searle's account.
Searle argues for a direct realist theory of perception, according to which perceptual experiences are direct presentations of the perceived objects themselves, not internal representations of those objects. On his view, when we perceive an object, the object itself is a constituent of the perceptual experience. This is what he calls the "intentionality" of perception - perceptual states are intrinsically about or directed at the objects perceived.
So in Searle's framework, it would be more accurate to characterize perceptual experiences as presentations rather than representations. The experience directly presents the object rather than representing it via some kind of internal content or vehicle of representation.
I think Searle's account captures important insights about the phenomenology of perception - the fact that perceived objects seem immediately present to us, not indirectly accessed via representations. That said, I'm not fully convinced that we can do away with representational content altogether in explaining perceptual experience. It seems we need some notion of perceptual content to explain perceptual illusions, hallucinations, and the fact that experiences can misrepresent the world.
But you are right that "representational experience" doesn't quite fit Searle's view, so thanks for pushing me to clarify that. Let me know if you have any other thoughts on this! — Claude 3 Opus
In his book "Seeing Things as They Are" (2015), John Searle criticizes disjunctivism, a theory in the philosophy of perception. Disjunctivism holds that veridical perceptions and hallucinations/illusions are fundamentally different kinds of mental states, rather than being different types of the same mental state (representational experience).
Searle's main criticisms of disjunctivism can be summarized as follows:
Disjunctivism fails to account for the subjective indistinguishability of veridical perceptions and hallucinations. Searle argues that from the first-person perspective, a hallucination can be identical to a veridical perception, which suggests that they are the same kind of mental state.
Searle contends that disjunctivism does not provide a satisfactory explanation for the common cause of both veridical perceptions and hallucinations. He argues that the most plausible explanation is that they are both caused by the same underlying neurological processes in the brain.
Searle claims that disjunctivism relies on a flawed understanding of direct realism. He argues that direct realism does not entail disjunctivism and that one can maintain direct realism while acknowledging the commonality between veridical perceptions and hallucinations.
Searle argues that disjunctivism creates an unnecessary and unparsimonious divide between veridical perceptions and hallucinations. He maintains that a unified theory of perception, which treats both as the same kind of mental state, is more coherent and simpler.
Overall, Searle's criticism of disjunctivism centers on the idea that the theory fails to provide a convincing account of the subjective similarity between veridical perceptions and hallucinations and that it unnecessarily complicates the philosophy of perception by positing two fundamentally different kinds of mental states. — Claude 3 Opus
Disjunctivism holds that veridical perceptions and hallucinations/illusions are fundamentally different kinds of mental states, rather than being different types of the same mental state (representational experience). — Claude 3 Opus
User
On philosophy of perception, how would you compare the stances of John Searle and John McDowell on disjunctivism?
ChatGPT
John Searle and John McDowell have distinct perspectives on disjunctivism within the philosophy of perception, although they both engage with the topic in significant ways.
John Searle: Searle is known for his direct realism and his critique of representational theories of perception. He argues that perception involves a direct, non-representational relation between the perceiver and the perceived object. Searle rejects the idea that perceptual experiences involve mental representations that mediate between the mind and the external world. Instead, he contends that perception is a direct awareness of external objects and their properties.
In the context of disjunctivism, Searle's views align with what is sometimes called "naive realism" or "anti-representationalism." He maintains that perceptual experiences are veridical and directly reflect the external world. Searle would likely reject the disjunctivist claim that perceptual experiences are fundamentally different in kind between veridical perceptions and hallucinations or illusions.
John McDowell: McDowell's approach to disjunctivism is more nuanced and complex. He acknowledges the disjunctive nature of perceptual experiences, recognizing that there is a difference between veridical perceptions and perceptual illusions or hallucinations. However, McDowell does not endorse the radical form of disjunctivism that posits a fundamental gap between veridical and non-veridical experiences.
McDowell's version of disjunctivism is more moderate and is often referred to as "epistemological disjunctivism." He argues that while there may be differences in the causal origins of veridical perceptions and hallucinations, they are nevertheless part of a seamless, unified perceptual experience. McDowell emphasizes the rationality and responsiveness of perceptual experiences to reasons and justificatory norms, even in cases of perceptual error.
In summary, while both Searle and McDowell engage with disjunctivism within the philosophy of perception, they approach the topic from different perspectives. Searle adopts a direct realist stance that rejects the need for mental representations in perception, while McDowell offers a more nuanced account that acknowledges the disjunctive nature of perceptual experiences while emphasizing their rational and epistemic significance.
User
In his book Seeing things as they are (2015) and in articles and interviews that are available online, Searle criticises disjunctivism. Can you summarise Searles criticism of disjunctivism?
ChatGPT
John Searle criticizes disjunctivism in the philosophy of perception primarily by challenging its central claim that there is a fundamental discontinuity between veridical perceptions and perceptual illusions or hallucinations. His criticisms of disjunctivism can be summarized as follows:
Rejecting the Discontinuity Thesis: Searle argues against the disjunctivist claim that there is a fundamental difference in kind between veridical perceptions and perceptual illusions or hallucinations. He contends that all perceptual experiences, whether veridical or non-veridical, involve the same basic perceptual mechanisms and are part of a continuous spectrum of conscious experiences.
Maintaining Direct Realism: Searle advocates for direct realism, which posits that perception involves a direct, unmediated awareness of external objects and their properties. He criticizes disjunctivism for undermining the directness of perceptual experience by positing a radical discontinuity between veridical and non-veridical perceptions.
Challenging the Role of Mental Representations: Searle rejects the idea that perceptual experiences are mediated by mental representations that stand between the mind and the external world. He argues that such representationalist accounts fail to capture the immediacy and directness of perceptual awareness, leading to an unnecessary ontological and epistemological gap between the mind and the world.
Emphasizing the Role of Background Knowledge: Searle emphasizes the role of background knowledge, context, and conceptual frameworks in shaping perceptual experiences. He contends that perceptual experiences are influenced by our beliefs, expectations, and prior experiences, which play a crucial role in determining how we perceive and interpret the world.
Overall, Searle's criticism of disjunctivism centers on its rejection of direct realism, its reliance on representationalist accounts of perception, and its failure to account for the continuity and richness of conscious experience across different perceptual states. He argues for a more unified and integrated account of perception that preserves the directness and immediacy of perceptual awareness while acknowledging the role of background knowledge and contextual factors in shaping our perceptual experiences.
— Chat GPT 3.5
Yes, but that "what we in our scale see as cars" depends on us (and our sense organs) and is an essential component. — Michael
The notion that a car is reducible to atoms and the forces that bind them together is a false one, but is unavoidable if you try to remove humans from the equation. — Michael