But why should it be managed at all? — NOS4A2
Poverty, overconsumption, monopoly, wealth inequality, seem to me the common objections. Keynes said as much in his essay “The End of laissez-faire”. But all of the above are apparent in all systems — NOS4A2
All of it at the cost of justice. It cannot differentiate between just and unjust distribution of wealth. — NOS4A2
I gave you evidence that there is no such thing as a "lack of regulation", and in fact there is a massive accumulation of regulation over time. The causes of the crisis were myriad, but to pin it on a system of laissez-faire when it has occurred in a highly-regulated mixed-economy is a bit out of bounds. — NOS4A2
We conclude widespread failures in financial regulation and supervision proved devastating to the stability of the nation’s financial markets. The sentries were not at their posts, in no small part due to the widely accepted faith in the self correcting nature of the markets and the ability of financial institutions to effectively police themselves. More than 30 years of deregulation and reliance on self-regulation by financial institutions, championed by former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan and others, supported by successive administrations and Congresses, and actively pushed by the powerful financial industry at every turn, had stripped away key safeguards, which could have helped avoid catastrophe. This approach had opened up gaps in oversight of critical areas with trillions of dollars at risk, such as the shadow banking system and over-the-counter derivatives markets. In addition, the government permitted financial firms to pick their preferred regulators in what became a race to the weakest supervisor.
So perhaps rather than asserting the red herrings which are the first two you could actually address @frank's claim which is the third. To back up his claim, see The Financial Crisis Inquiry Report:
This is why a laissez-faire economy can't work. Contrary to your naive idealism, people are greedy and selfish and make many bad decisions. A democratically-elected government is the best tool we have to protect ourselves.
in the absence ofstate(private property)a majority of free people will not resort tyranny, theft, murder, and they should have the means and ability to defend themselves against those who would (take away their communal rights to live as free citizens in hunting gathering lifestyles). They will be free, at least. — Bizarro NOS
an unjust transfer in wealth never results in a just distribution, let alone a just state of affairs. We cannot use injustice to reach justice. No matter the efficiency, no matter who gets what, it’s injustice all the way down. — NOS4A2
People fear laissez faire because they think it unjust. It's only sociopaths like you who think hoarding all the capital you can get your hands on is 'just'. The rest of us think justice is about what people deserve to get, not what people can get. — Isaac
Who should stop them? — NOS4A2
What a state provides, which corporations cannot, is a semblance of legitimacy, even as the state works directly for such corporations. — Streetlight
But an unjust transfer in wealth never results in a just distribution, let alone a just state of affairs. We cannot use injustice to reach justice. No matter the efficiency, no matter who gets what, it’s injustice all the way down. — NOS4A2
And it’s not clear to me that the absence of regulation can accurately be said to cause a certain activity. — NOS4A2
It’s a faith of mine, but one founded on experience, that in the absence of state power a majority of free people will not resort tyranny, theft, murder, and they should have the means and ability to defend themselves against those who would. — NOS4A2
That is the fatal flaw in my arguments: it serves no utilitarian purpose. It won’t just work out. I do not believe laissez-faire or free markets results in some sort of market equilibrium. I do not believe it will work or function that well, especially in a culture crippled after centuries of state rule and intervention. It doesn’t aim for the greater amount of happiness for the greater amount of people. — NOS4A2
The best laissez-faire could ever do is provide a space for humans to figure it out on their own, absent absolute power, the hard and soft despotisms and the game-rigging of a coercive and exploitative institution. — NOS4A2
Sure, but the presumption is that under a truly laissez-faire economy it would be worse than it is now. — Michael
It’s a faith of mine, but one founded on experience, that in the absence of state power a majority of free people will not resort tyranny, theft, murder, and they should have the means and ability to defend themselves against those who would. — NOS4A2
So your argument is either pointless whinging or lacks foundation.
The issue is what is just, not why people fear laissez faire. People fear laissez faire because they think it unjust. It's only sociopaths like you who think hoarding all the capital you can get your hands on is 'just'. The rest of us think justice is about what people deserve to get, not what people can get.
Ignoring or dismissing this comes across to others that you are being dishonest. And if you are dishonest in your dealings here, how can anyone believe your world where everyone is honest and good?
It’s a faith of mine, but one founded on experience, that in the absence of state power a majority of free people will not resort tyranny, theft, murder, and they should have the means and ability to defend themselves against those who would.
People are greedy and selfish and make many bad decisions, and that’s one of the many reasons why I do not want to give them power over others. It’s a faith of mine, but one founded on experience, that in the absence of state power a majority of free people will not resort tyranny, theft, murder, and they should have the means and ability to defend themselves against those who would.
This is just more of the same Ayn Rand type BS you have already been spouting.The reason The Wealthy purchase or influence power is because the people with power are selling it. If the state didn’t have that power The Wealthy wouldn’t be able to purchase it. The Wealthy do not have the power you claim they do until the people with power afford it to them, and even then it’s just the promise that the state will use its power to benefit The Wealthy. — NOS4A2
Which is really no power. The only time the poor has real power is when things are so bad that they start working together collectively and stop relying on those with money or in the state to tell them what to do. Of course I imagine someone like you would call that socialism which of course is even a bigger evil then your so called "State"The Poor, with no wealth, can only purchase or influence power through less-costly means such as voting or protest. — NOS4A2
What conveniently forgetting with your Ayn Rand type rhetoric is the uber wealthy elites already have immense power over the plebs and wage slaves that serve them and with their easy access to money it is much, much easier for them to influence politicians then it is for the poor.Both seek to influence power, actual power. Both desire the same ends: to use state power to benefit their preferred group of beneficiaries. — NOS4A2
Again, I don't know what you have against cops but whatever it is it is likely unfounded. Police officers are mostly there to act as arbitrators in whatever disputes or crimes in the communities they serve and have to work in and obey the law just as much as the citizens they are there to serve and protect. Without their service (just as many ways the soldiers in the US military) you wouldn't have the freedom right now to speak your mind and spout your anti-cop nonsense and insult them.A police officer has the legal right to use force against you. The bureaucrat has the legal right take your children, your home, your wages. They can put you in prison. I don’t think any other class of people has that sort of power in the statist system. — NOS4A2
:up:If anyone in a discussion with us is not concerned with adjusting himself to truth, if he has no wish to find the truth, he is intellectually a barbarian. That, in fact, is the position of the mass-man when he speaks, lectures or writes. — Jose Ortega y Gasset - The Revolt of the Masses - p.72, footnote 1
That’s right. Little prigs like yourself would authorize stealing so you can give it to people you want. — NOS4A2
Laissez faire: cover for corporatism. — Xtrix
You should probably double check what that word means. — NOS4A2
That is what it means. — Xtrix
It is almost a given that the uber rich are at least smart enough to know that if the State/government wasn't there to protect them there would be little to nothing to prevent the plebs that serve them from taking up arms and going against them. — dclements
The reason The Wealthy purchase or influence power is because the people with power are selling it. — NOS4A2
Yeah, when I read that it kind of made my head spin as well. It looks like NOS4A2 is willing to blame people in the State for being willing and going through with the selling of political influence to the uber wealthy while at the same time thinks that the uber wealthy are blameless in such transactions because it is merely what the wealthy "do".The reason The Wealthy purchase or influence power is because the people with power are selling it.
— NOS4A2
Imagine actually believing this.
Put yourself in these shoes and consider it.
Frightening, isn’t it? — Xtrix
No, stealing is taking something which doesn't rightfully belong to you, you've yet to establish that the taxed part of your wage doesn't rightfully belong to the government. It's not sufficient to just say that you don't like it, this is a discussion forum, not a blog, we're not interested in your idle opinion.
To argue against government intervention on grounds of injustice you need to say why it is 'just' for you to retain your gross wage and unjust for the government to take it's taxes. The simple fact that it resides for any period of time in your bank account is not a measure of justice.
I worked for that money and acquired it through the voluntary consent of all parties involved. The government did not work for that money nor did it acquire that money through the voluntary consent of all parties involved. — NOS4A2
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