A cave is no dark room. — Cartuna
I was hungry, for real. I had 0 burgers, 0 hotdogs, 0 eggs, and 0 liters of milk. I'm, for some strange and unfathomable reason, still hungry. — TheMadFool
That baseline is achieved indeed by maintaining a certain free energy that's needed to live a life. — Cartuna
The status quo can be maintained. If unexpected things happen, the free energy has to increase. Excitement occurs. Information increases, depending on the new situation. — Cartuna
One can arrange life to meet as little surprises as possible, like seek sanctuary in a dark room, but surprises are needed in life. — Cartuna
I got no counter. — Kenosha Kid
In a darkened room, the brain will still be expending just as much energy in its metabolism. — apokrisis
What I said still stands: the notion described in the article is interesting, but not decided.
— Banno
This is a reasonable conclusion. — Caldwell
I had in mind Descartes' "oven", in which he did his meditating. Perhaps an armchair in a comfy room with a laptop is the modern equivalent, the least surprising thing hereabouts. — Banno
Point being, despite some protestations to the contrary, it is still not clear how this fits in with thermodynamics and information theory. — Banno
Yes, you can pick something (dark caves), apply it one way (our models wouldn't be fit for such an environment, maximising present surprise), and get the desired answer. Or pick something else (going night-diving), apply it in a completely different way (curiosity adds information to our model, minimising future surprise), and get a very different answer. That's not encouraging. — Kenosha Kid
Not clear to you or not clear to the neuroscientist — apokrisis
The dark room is a red herring. — Banno
What about when surprise becomes confusion? — Banno
Indeed, as I noted earlier, a theory that explains everything, explains nothing. — Banno
I don't think so. — Cartuna
The free energy minimizes, to sustain the basic needs for life. But the urge for surprises will drive your brain to get in form. Free energy will increase. — Cartuna
The dark room is a red herring. — Banno
Both. I can minimise surprises by picking the garlic that will rot if left much longer. But in stead I came back to this surprisingly entertaining thread. Both of my actions are apparently explained by thermodynamics, and so thermodynamics explains nothing. — Banno
There's nothing sweeter than an observation that doesn't fit the model. — Kenosha Kid
There's nothing sweeter than an observation that doesn't fit the model. — Kenosha Kid
That's why, in my humble opinion, (religious) miracles are a scientific obsession and yet if you look at what Hume says - a miracle should only be believed if its falsity is even more miraculous - it would seem that scientists are extremely reluctant, even openly hostile, to give due consideration to miracles (basically counterexamples to the laws of nature). I just don't get it. — TheMadFool
Aren’t you just playing Buridan’s ass here? — apokrisis
Let’s get real about the scientific method. — apokrisis
And there's another problem. We _like_ confusion. The history of science is predicated on the attraction of surprise and confusion. There's nothing sweeter than an observation that doesn't fit the model. Moths to a flame. — Kenosha Kid
But it is not beyond the realms of possibility that curiosity itself drops out of the odd and obtuse considerations of thermodynamics - indeed, somehow, I suppose it must be so, if we are physical entities. — Banno
No, if put that way. I'm lazy to go back to that article to lift a passage, but there's the comment, I think, by the Theorist regarding the relativistic nature of surprises, and the subjective response to surprises by the agents -- as in, a "surprise" relative to what?That the free energy principle is the constraint that drives adaptive learning is what is in contention. — Banno
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