Hence we must admit that the relation [‘north of’], like the terms it relates, is not dependent upon thought, but belongs to the independent world which thought apprehends but does not create.
— “Bertrand Russell”
Crucial point. This is something that almost nobody gets. The way thought operates constantly relies on such judgements, that are not dependent on a particular mind, but only perceptible by a mind. They are rational relations and the basis for inference and judgement, and are real, but not physical, in that they’re prior to judgement. — Wayfarer
Aristotle does in fact use the expressions “prime matter” (prôtê hulê) and “primary underlying thing” (prôton hupokeimenon) several times — Mitchell
Russell wrote:
Consider such a proposition as "Edinburgh is north of London." Here we have a relation between two places, and it seems plain that the relation subsists independently of our knowledge of it. When we come to know that Edinburgh is north of London, we come to know something which has to do only with Edinburgh and London: we do not cause the truth of the proposition by coming to know it, on the contrary we merely apprehend a fact which was there before we knew it.
Russell wrote:
The part of the earth's surface where Edinburgh stands would be north of the part where London stands, even if there were no human being to know about north and south, and even if there were no minds at all in the universe. This is, of course, denied by many philosophers, either for Berkeley's reasons or for Kant's.
Russell wrote:
We may therefore now assume it to be true that nothing mental is presupposed in the fact that Edinburgh is north of London. But this fact involves the relation "north of," which is a universal; and it would be impossible for the whole fact to involve nothing mental if the relation "north of," which is a constituent part of the fact, did involve anything mental. Hence we must admit that the relation, like the terms it relates, is not dependent upon thought, but belongs to the independent world which thought apprehends but does not create.
The truth of the proposition is not caused by our coming to know it. I agree. It was caused by agreement regarding cardinal directions, the establishment of cities, and other meaningful creations of humans. — creativesoul
Not sure if it's the truth of the proposition that's "caused by agreement". I think it's the possibility of the truth of the proposition that's caused by agreement, i.e. the agreement creates a thing to say yes or no about, to be true or false about, or rather a question for nature to answer "yes" or "no" to, upon interrogation.
The meaningful element that we interpose, the cardinal directions, etc., creates the possibility for something to be true or false, or a standard in terms of which things can be measured, etc. — gurugeorge
And the "prime problem" is that Aristotle was focused on how actuality creates potentiality, rather than the more truly foundational issue of how potentiality creates actuality. — apokrisis
In a way, it's funny (to me) that you have both Plato and Kant as favorite philosophers, because in many ways, they are opposed to each other. — Agustino
There we go, this is a realist position and is opposed to the Kantian. — Agustino
Newtonian physics was reductionist in being a realist physics based on just observables — apokrisis
It is a priori knowledge. — TimeLine
Right, I agree that they are internalised in Kant, but that's precisely the problem. If they are internalised, then they are mind (understanding) dependent - they are of subjective origin. This is precisely what allows Kant to call space, time, causality, etc. as transcendentally ideal, as opposed to transcendentally real.There are divergences. Kant did a dissertation on the Ideal Forms in his early days, but changed his view later. But arguably they became internalised in Kant as forms of understanding. — Wayfarer
In Kant's terminology understanding and reason aren't the same. Kant's point is that the understanding gives (or creates if you want) the forms. So perception itself is fashioned by the understanding according to Kant. Understanding + sense impressions = phenomenon. So it's not that the understanding understands forms that are out there in the objects. But rather it creates the very objects that are objectively given in the phenomenon.Not so - only perceptible by a mind, a rational intelligence, that is capable of understanding 'north'. — Wayfarer
Sure, but presumably (we can't know for sure the subjective experience of a cow though), cows also have spatial perception. In order to have any kind of spatial experience, the understanding must supply the form of space according to Kant (refer to the transcendental aesthetic). Cows may lack conceptual ability, but this isn't to say they lack the forms. One can drink water without having the concept of drinking water. And one can perceive in space (ie their understanding provides the form of space), without being able to think about it.They do it without thinking about it (and science doesn't know how!) — Wayfarer
Morality is contingent upon thought and belief. — creativesoul
I agree that they are internalised in Kant, but that's precisely the problem. If they are internalised, then they are mind (understanding) dependent - they are of subjective origin — Agustino
Understanding + sense impressions = phenomenon. — Agustino
Cows may lack conceptual ability, but this isn't to say they lack the forms — Agustino
Ummmm. No, they are subjective and they pertain to whatever creatures experience things in space. I never meant by subjective that they pertain only to yourself - Kant was quite clear that the forms are universals and necessary - nothing can be imagined without them, and everything presupposes their existence (from your point of view at least).That is mistaken. They’re not ‘subjective’ in the sense of ‘pertaining only to myself’. — Wayfarer
You are not following closely what I've been saying. Your understanding can have the form of space (which you can take as a concept), without you being able to analytically describe this concept, break it into its parts, derive Euclid's postulates from it, etc.Strike two. ‘Percepts without concepts are blind’. — Wayfarer
Nope - what I meant by conceptual ability was ability to linguistically break things down into their component parts and perform operations with them. Cows do lack the latter part for sure, though very likely they do NOT lack the understanding that assembles experience through the forms of space, time, causality, etc.Strike three. — Wayfarer
Strike two. ‘Percepts without concepts are blind’. — Wayfarer
Morality is contingent upon thought and belief.
— creativesoul
You think? I did Landmark Education, one of their lessons is called ‘chocolate or vanilla’. It’s the way things come at you from a completely unexpected angle. Life throws stuff at you. Shit, as they say, happens, and you often don’t have a lot of time to think. And I think that’s where you learn character. You will see people on the news - ‘hey, I didn’t think, I just acted’ - and sometimes that’s positive, like ‘bystander rescues trapped driver from burning vehicle’, and other times it’s negative ‘I saw the money on the table and I just grabbed it’. Morality is what it is that determines which of those impulses wins out — Wayfarer
So then, we could take the position that being a universal is determined by how the word is being used. — creativesoul
Can we be wrong, not in the sense of using the word incorrectly, but can we both - use the word sensibly and say false things about universals? — creativesoul
That Aristotle is a kind of Platonist isn't very much in doubt. However, saying that Kant is a Platonist is very much different. In what sense is he a Platonist?Aristotle and Kant are both Platonists! — Wayfarer
So where exactly did Aristotle spell out an argument for prime substance? — apokrisis
Did you mean something like an Apeiron? — apokrisis
I agree that nothing comes from nothing, but also it can't be the case that immanent being is an efficient/material tale of how something comes from something. That way lies only infinite regress. — apokrisis
So the first substantial act or occurence would be the least possible state of being in terms of being en-mattered and in-formed - some kind of spontaneous fluctuation. — apokrisis
So finality, or the prime mover, is placed where it should be, at the other end of existence's journey. The Cosmos has to grow into its Being, even if - through mathematics - we can understand that Being to have retrospective necessity. — apokrisis
If the beginning was a symmetry, then only certain ways of breaking that symmetry were ever possible. And so the form of the Cosmos can be regarded as latent in prime matter. It could be considered "prime substance" on that ground. — apokrisis
I'm puzzled by how this qualifies by your lights, as being an appropriate reply. Relevance? — creativesoul
Just consider action and direction to be accidental properties of potentiality. — apokrisis
I was musing on the extent to which morality is dependent on thought and belief, rather than vice versa - that was all. — Wayfarer
Essential attributes and accidental attibutes are both properties, and properties are universals. (I think.) — Mitchell
EVERYTHING in the cosmos is composed of matter and form. Everything is concrete and individual. Hence the forms of cosmic entities must also be concrete and individual. Now, the process of knowledge is immediately concerned with the separation of form (morphs) from matter (hyle), since a thing is known precisely because its form is received in the knower. But, whatever is received is in the recipient according to the mode of being that the recipient possesses. If, then, the senses are material powers, they receive the forms of objects in a material manner; and if the intellect is an immaterial power, it receives the forms of objects in an immaterial manner. This means that in the case of sense knowledge, the form is still encompassed with the concrete characters which make it particular; and that, in the case of intellectual knowledge, the form is disengaged from all such characters. To understand is to free form completely from matter.
Moreover, if the proper knowledge of the senses is of accidents, through forms that are individualized, the proper knowledge of intellect is of essences, through forms that are universalized. Intellectual knowledge is analogous to sense knowledge inasmuch as it demands the reception of the form of the thing which is known. But it differs from sense knowledge so far forth as it consists in the apprehension of things, not in their individuality, but in their universality.
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