• What should religion do for us today?
    A pretty strange axiomic system seeing how many times it contradicts itself (check the difference between Meccanic and Medinaic verses). Go on alcantali!Nobeernolife

    They only appear as contradictory to those who neglect the context of the revelation, when it was revealed, and what it was revealed in response to (which you allude to by pointing out that some verses are considered Meccanic, and others Medinaic). The period in Mecca was met with huge trials, where the muslims were severely oppressed by the pagan majority. They left after the pagans plotted to kill them, and fled to Madina where they were given a safe haven, and where they (including the non-muslims) elected Mohammed as an authority over them. The period in Medina was met by constant harassment by the same people who had oppressed them for their entire time in Mecca, and most of the controversial verses in the Quran were specifically referring to dealing with said oppressors. There is no contradiction. Like I say, you have to neglect so much information in order to impose such opinions. For example, when the Muslim's conquered Mecca, not one person was killed. Why? Because they understood the context of the verses that was revealed to them spoke about specific circumstances, that the bounds shouldn't be transgressed, and that they themselves shouldn't become oppressors.
  • Can you be factually wrong, but morally right?
    Also, saying factually wrong is ambiguous enough to include multiple circumstances that extend beyond wilfully lying.
  • Can you be factually wrong, but morally right?
    great points!

    as I mentioned in the OP, this was in response to a drama surrounding AOC. The phrase which has confused you was the wording used by AOC regarding her own comments; and further used by her political opponents in their responses.
  • Can you be factually wrong, but morally right?

    You missed the point of my example. I wasn’t saying that it is moral or just to give the Nazi a gun. I was pointing out the issue with the idea that people were putting forward that it’s not possible to be factually incorrect and morally correct simultaneously, and the Nazi example was proof that one could in fact be morally right but factually incorrect. I wasn’t saying that facts = justice either. Not sure how you derived that from what i said. When I say factual, I mean simply stating something that is the case.

    If staying silent leads to suspicion by the Nazi, and the inevitable capture of his victims, and you have no choice but to lie or tell the truth, I think it would be moral to lie (a minor immoral act) in order to prevent murder (a much more major immoral act) and would be a case of undergoing a smaller evil to prevent a larger one. The overall situation being taken into consideration rather than the individual acts in isolation.
  • The Shoutbox
    And no worries. Not that important. He just didn't strike me as the kind of person that would get banned.
  • The Shoutbox

    I'm gonna guess this is a troll, and the borg reference is something I am ignorant of. lol
  • The Shoutbox

    no information on his banning there.

    so if I type @Borg that gets in touch with all of you? lol or are you trolling me?
  • Problem with the statement: THE INFINITE IS LIMITED TO NOT BEING FINITE
    I get you. I seem to be running up against the same problem when talking to other atheists as well. I think one of the biggest problems is semantical. Language and concepts is a tool for finite things to grasp other things by setting boundaries around an idea in order for it to be comprehensible. The problem with "the infinite" is that its a self-defeating task to try and conceptualise it; that is, an attempt to put limits on the limitless.

    EDIT: **in order to conceptualise the unconceptualisable**
  • The Shoutbox
    Also, is there not a @handle to just get in touch with of the staff?

    like @staff.. that would be a nice feature.
  • Problem with the statement: THE INFINITE IS LIMITED TO NOT BEING FINITE

    this is an interesting point. When I'm talking to people about how we should conceptualise the infinite when thinking about the source of all things, I often stress the difference in the use of the word infinite in this sense, compared to the mathematical use given in your example. Do you generally see this distinction as well? Or would you say they use it in a similar way?
  • Problem with the statement: THE INFINITE IS LIMITED TO NOT BEING FINITE
    Come to think of it, I think I may have represented this incorrectly in formal logic.


    So the statement reads something like X = ¬X = X ?

    How do the parts relate? would it be a simple transition in equality, or is it there a better way of representing this statement in formal terms?
  • "White privilege"
    Who are you to tell Teller what he feels or should feel or what is suitable for him to feel.T Clark

    Did this mean to come across as aggressive as it did? Lol
    I'm not telling him what to feel. I'm telling him what I think. Big difference.

    Also, as you can see below, he acknowledged his gratitude.T Clark

    Didn't read so far down to see this yet. But if he said that in the end then maybe my intuition on his choice of words wasn't that misplaced after all?
  • "White privilege"
    For myself, I am proud that I had loving parents, grandparents and grew up in a stable home with both a mom and dad present.Teller

    I don't think "proud" is the right word to use, maybe grateful might be more suitable?
  • VOTE RESULT | Philosopher of the Month Awards (May)
    Vote closed winner announced.

    Sorry I was in the mosque for the last ten days of ramadan so haven't been online.
  • The Shoutbox
    I don't see what all the fuss about is with GOT. Just watched the season finale and I'm happy its all wrapped up and finished. Didn't end as you would expect it to, but thats always been what GOT was about. Ever since season 1 when they popped off Ned, they set a precedent for getting you to love a character and then taking them away. The battle scenes got nearly as long as a film gets. Didn't see the point in prolonging it.

    After the walking dead milked it well past its expiration date, I hate it when a series just keeps producing material for the sake of it. Much prefer it when they finish a story and move on. GOT delivered, it was great, I loved it and now its ended. Happy days. Don't get why people feel the need to whine about it so much.
  • VOTE RESULT | Philosopher of the Month Awards (May)

    so bloody vote for him instead of just talking about it lol if you to went to the poll and chose wallows then he'd be neck and neck with everyone in the poll.
  • VOTE RESULT | Philosopher of the Month Awards (May)

    I only changed the rules after this had been done. So I said that it would be specifically for a post someone has done for that month, starting from June.

    Last month someone's cat won and they didn't even have an account; where were your complaints then? lol
  • VOTE RESULT | Philosopher of the Month Awards (May)
    Please go to the beginning of this thread and participate in the poll.
  • Viktor Frankl: Man's search for meaning - EMPATHY
    It's said that the Buddha's father (a king) put the Buddha in isolation, away from the pain and suffering of the common people so that he wouldn't lean towards religion. This failed, fortunately or not you decide, when one day the Buddha left his ''heavenly'' palace to mingle with his subjects who were Suffering.TheMadFool

    But you also miss out the motivation for wishing to leave his "heavenly" palace in the first place. Was it not fuelled by a dissatisfaction with said palace? And was it not his experiencing the extremes of both pure abundance and absolute poverty that allowed him to become enlightened in the end?

    Were his conclusions not that ALL life is suffering- and just that of the poor?

    Does his (Prince Siddhārtha's) story not undermine your point rather than support it?
  • The Shoutbox
    theres a lot of green at the top of the discussions feed today.
  • Viktor Frankl: Man's search for meaning - EMPATHY
    I guess what I'm saying is empathy is a posteriori and learning experiences are more if you're lower in the pecking order.TheMadFool

    Maybe. Although I'm not sure its as obvious as you make out. How does one quantify how many learning experiences those at the top of the pecking order have?
  • Most depressing philosopher?
    Its not the rock thats of significance here. Its the person pushing it.
  • Most depressing philosopher?
    I may be wrong, but I think the problem lies in seeing it as a circular movement, returning to the same place again and again. Instead it should be seen as more of a spiralling accession. One returns, circling around, but never to the same spot as the same person. The movement itself changes one enough so that returning to the same place is impossible. The experience of the same hill is somewhat illusory . Every accent is a different one, each hill unique.
  • Most depressing philosopher?

    I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises the rocks. He, too, concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.
  • Viktor Frankl: Man's search for meaning - EMPATHY
    As a result of this I became frantically obsessed with Stoic thought and ethos. It was an attempt to desensitize myself from the whole experience. Around my 20's I picked up Frankel's book and was engrossed with the account of almost superhuman desire to help others however he could.Wallows

    Stoicism seems like a reasonable response to such horror.

    It is very easy to fall in despair over the tragedy of the Holocaust after visiting and then reading about the first hand experience of a survivor. But, the proper response in my opinion is gratitude. To be thankful that such atrocities will most likely never happen again.Wallows

    I'm not sure the world is such an optimistic place. I think seeing such things happen in the past only confirms to me that it is always possible for them to happen again in the future. For the aesthetics of a situation to be just different enough for the people who commit such crimes to be able to convince themselves that its not the same. That they are justified. I don't doubt that Nazi Germans had their own horror stories which instilled in them the same kind of disgust and horror we feel when we see their actions. I think they rationalised it in such a way as to make them blind to the similarities. Unfortunately, I'm not as optimistic about such things as I wish I could be. Pragmatism seems to pull me when making such observations.

    However if anyone has a good enough memory and follows some of my babble I think that I have become paranoid and suspicious of others. I am also extremely hypervigilant about other people due to this experience and insight of what people can do. I see no way out of this predicament and take medication to stabilize me.Wallows

    Because there is always a possibility that you may be dealing with monsters. I think the problem is that seeing such things has the potential to awaken the monster in ourselves. This can be a daunting thing to experience, and will likely make you realise that if little old me is capable of something so horrific, maybe everyone is. Everyone has the capacity to hurt someone else under such conditions, and so you put yourself at a distance to the rest of the world. I know I've done something similar. I've been hurt, and almost certainly done my own share of hurting. This combined with the awareness of atrocities like genocide etc, probably forces one to stay somewhat detached to everyone one meets. Or feel guilty or wary when one becomes too attached; always anticipating some form of pain as a result of the relationship.

    But then this worries me also because its possible that this very reaction to the world could also harbour the seeds to the monstrosities that can give rise to that very behaviour in the first place.
  • Viktor Frankl: Man's search for meaning - EMPATHY
    I only recently realised that empathy is not about feeling how I would feel in your situation, it's feeling how you feel in your situation. I just thought I'd offer that, for those who (like me) mistook the exact meaning of the word. If you already knew, well, I'm sorry for wasting your time. :wink:Pattern-chaser

    Its interesting you say that, because I kind of allude to this problem in my post. Is it possible to do anything more than imagine yourself in such a position? Can you ever successfully understand what it feels like for someone else to experience something? This would require you to transcend your own subjectivity and to completely replace it with their own; which is itself so complex and so dependent upon countless things which other people can never get access to. I can't help but feel we have the ability to share abstract and common generalities. But each persons own subject is exclusively their own, and that empathy as you describe it is impossible to achieve. The only possible form of empathy is to place yourself in there shoes and imagine how you may feel under such circumstances, but that will always be a deficient form of empathy due to our finite understanding of other people. Which unfortunately is inevitable.
  • Viktor Frankl: Man's search for meaning - EMPATHY
    I think the development of a Nazi or gang member happens slowly. One step at a time, a person becomes numb to his own conscience. Add an authority figure, various rationalizations and rewards to it, and the numbness just goes deeper and deeper.frank

    I can imagine these sort of things creep up on you. I often think about how love an turn people into monsters as well. People I've known who have resorted to disgusting behaviour as the result of what they perceive to be an overwhelming feeling of appreciation of the other person.

    I think wondering if you could become the monster is the first step in avoiding it. People who are convinced of their own righteousness won't notice the signs that it's starting to happen. They won't see the moral grey-zone they're stepping into.frank

    Maybe, but what I think worries me is that if you don't notice this kind of thing creep up on you, then maybe even recognising it as a problem isn't enough to prevent the evolution towards such ways of being.
    I remember once feeling really low, but nothing like a concentration camp victim, but this poem helped me. Maybe a little cheezy, but I think it's along the lines of what Frankl discovered:

    Out of the night that covers me,
    Black as the pit from pole to pole,
    I thank whatever gods may be
    For my unconquerable soul.

    In the fell clutch of circumstance
    I have not winced nor cried aloud.
    Under the bludgeonings of chance
    My head is bloody, but unbowed.

    Beyond this place of wrath and tears
    Looms but the Horror of the shade,
    And yet the menace of the years
    Finds and shall find me unafraid.

    It matters not how strait the gate,
    How charged with punishments the scroll,
    I am the master of my fate,
    I am the captain of my soul.

    Its not cheesy. I love poetry, and that certainly is a good one. Thank you for sharing it with me. The last stanza is especially great. The last two lines manage to pierce through in a very dramatic way instilling hope. I love how weird poems can be and how they have the power to effect us. Its a strange phenomena to observe. Especially considering that someone who doesn't understand English could look at the same arrangement of symbols and feel nothing but puzzlement from something that can be so effective to someone else.
  • Viktor Frankl: Man's search for meaning - EMPATHY
    interesting comment. Although I find it strange when people talk as though the super rich don't have problems, which also shows a lack of empathy. The rich and the poor live in two different worlds, it makes sense that it would be hard for one to successfully transport themselves to the position of the other with the imagination alone.
  • Those Who Claim Morals Only Come from God are Against Seclularism
    sorry read again and noticed the word endorsement which changes the meaning I thought you were saying.
  • Those Who Claim Morals Only Come from God are Against Seclularism
    @DingoJones made no such remarks. Thats a straw man of what he actually said. Quote specifically what he said that motivated your response
  • Recommendations of logic text books
    Tracy Bowell & Gary Kemp, Critical Thinking: A Concise Guide, (London: Routledge, 2015)

    Used this book for my studies at university in logic and got a 98% in my exams. Not sure how much I should give thanks to this particular book for my high score, but I can say that it certainly contributed. Great book and I highly recommend.
  • The Shoutbox
    I don't get it...
  • The Shoutbox
    if you could turn the shout box into a book, I wonder how many pages it would be.
  • VOTE RESULT | Philosopher of the Month Awards (May)
    I think next month I might change it up a little. After this month, you can only nominate someone with an example of what they did in that same month that makes them worthy of nomination. You can then leave a quote of them being a top notch philosopher and your reason as to why this shows them worthy of being put to the vote.

    NOTE: only genuine nominations will be considered. Jokey or facetious ones will be disregarded :smile:
  • VOTE RESULT | Philosopher of the Month Awards (May)
    ok so we have 3 (serious) nominations so far.. lol

    @Bitter Crank

    With regards to @S's nomination of Catbird, it seems obviously facetious so I'm just going to ignore it :wink: with only three posts on the forum, one being a music video, the second being a comment on committing to non-engagement, and the third being a description of what a catbird sounds like, I think its fair to favour the above mentioned three over your nomination :L lol

    We'll see how this continues for another week or so, give others a chance to nominate anyone they think might be worthy, and we'll go from there. I'll put this to the vote on Monday, God willing.