I'm not really familiar with that phrase, so I don't have an intuitive grasp for what it includes versus excludes. — Terrapin Station
What are you referring to there--the word? The concept (or meaning as you suggest in the next sentence)? Are you positing a necessary, real universal? — Terrapin Station
So you've been thinking that "physicalism" simply amounts to people who believe that some, but not all, of "what there is" is physical? Contra people who think that nothing is physical, maybe? — Terrapin Station
Okay this is the last time you play this trick before I call it quits. Yes, it is circular reasoning the way you phrased/reasoned it initially. Now you just rephrased it and pretend I did not notice it. — Emptyheady
That is fine. Like I said our moral philosophies differ. The keyword here is "suffering." I care more about (individual) rights than suffering. — Emptyheady
It's not physicalism if it posits there there are things in the world that aren't physical (whatever a particular species of physicalism considers "physical" to denote, exactly). — Terrapin Station
Like a dog chasing its own tail. I am a bit tired at this moment, is this circular reasoning or just an tautology... — Emptyheady
As long as you are a human being, you remain to have moral agency and therefore human rights. That is because humans have a special property of moral responsibility -- call them moral agents or moral actors if you'd like. — Emptyheady
Okay, but if they're not physical, then it's not physicalism. — Terrapin Station
Come now... such a rash and lazy reasoning. The fact that you can abuse animals does not entail that animals have rights. You can also abuse buildings, plants (e.g. trees) and cars -- you can even get legally punished by doing so, but none of this entail "rights" like human rights.
Note that this is an otiose point. This specific point is regarding its controversy. It adds nothing to the crux of this discussion, but I found it interesting to mention nonetheless. I took some classes in law. The fact that animals have no rights was uncontroversially true (legally). The moral case is easily made as well. — Emptyheady
Suffering is not the basis of my moral philosophy. Besides, laws are more about rights than suffering anyway. — Emptyheady
We might have to discuss some metaethics at a deeper level, but if we agree that humans are capable of acting morally and animals not without equivocating, then we can take it from there. If you disagree, then we should look where exactly we differ and how humans are morally different from animals. — Emptyheady
It sounds like you're saying that under physicalism, "universals" are simply the properties that obtain via particulars. But that's not realism on universalism at all--that's nominalism. — Terrapin Station
Your claims are controversial. Morally and legally speaking, animals do not have rights the way humans do. This is pretty much a consensus everywhere in the world. — Emptyheady
Would that include fields? Fields are studied by physicists, their effects can be detected by instruments, but they have nothing in common with physical objects, because they're not physical objects, and some of them are not detectable except in terms of their effects. — Wayfarer
Easy. Animals have no rights and can therefore be used as property/utility by moral agents (i.e. humans). — Emptyheady
Okay, but you're positing an entity that's not identical to its instantiations in particulars, right? What I'm asking you is how that entity is physical. — Terrapin Station
Re the parts in italics above, and especially the terms in bold, how would the entities in question be physical? Where would they be instantiated first off? — Terrapin Station
Surely it would be that universals like "the perfect triangle" or "perfect body proportion" are just an ideas within our minds and hold no physical existence outside of our thinking of them. — intrapersona
Why does it sound like philosophers are saying that certain ideas of objects and forms actually have an existence outside of the mind? That just sounds silly, yet I know I am missing something here...
Just to confirm, physicalism and universals are non-compatible right? — intrapersona
"Let us not pretend to doubt in philosophy what we do not doubt in our hearts." — aletheist
Um... those five items are of vital importance. — lambda
If you don't know whether your cognitive faculties are reliable, whether you're dreaming, whether the people around you are conscious, whether you are truly morally responsible for your actions, or whether the walls of your room continue to exist when you're not experiencing them, then you are in a state of total intellectual paralysis. — lambda
The absolute failure of philosophy is a great example of how unaided human reasoning leads to nothing but absurdity. — lambda
Nor, however, have I ever known a made-by-women feminist list like yours, except the ones drawn up by antagonistic men who were trying to discredit a much subtler and more illuminating set of ideas. I don't think such lists ever make sense. There is an analysis of patriarchy, there are theories, there are ideas for action. There aren't simple bullet-points of anti-men statements to swallow before a radfem bedtime. Perhaps I'm naive, but overthrowing patriarchy always seemed to me a good idea. — mcdoodle
So you don't think that things can be predicated of formal and final causes? — apokrisis
"I myself always use exist in its strict philosophical sense of “react with the other like things in the environment.”
"I define the real as that which holds its characters on such a tenure that it makes not the slightest difference what any man or men may have thought them to be, or ever will have thought them to be, here using thought to include, imagining, opining, and willing (as long as forcible means are not used); but the real thing's characters will remain absolutely untouched." — apokrisis
You believe that nothing is real unless it exists - i.e., that there are only material/efficient causes and brute facts? — aletheist
Good job I don't say principles "exist". Or that they are "brute facts".
And saying that about properties would be inconsistent too. — apokrisis
Well, only the one. Apeiron. Or however we would best understand that appeal to material principle in our best physicalist theories. — apokrisis
A "monism" that is irreducibly complex in being a triadic process. — apokrisis
But the whole point - following triadic hylomorphism - is that whatever the material principle is, it can't be itself substantial in the kind of sense you have in mind. It can't already possess properties, as positive properties are the product of formal causes, or constraints. — apokrisis
A mystic. A pseudo philosopher. — apokrisis
So after the Big Bang, the bath of radiation cools enough and massive, slower than light, particles emerge. A lucky asymmetry means that nearly all of the negative anti-protons have gone, likewise nearll all of the positive anti-electrons. That lets you have some persistent basic ingredients - oppositely charged electrons and protons. From there, you can get stellar physics and planetary chemisty.
So the emergence of complex materiality - stuff with properties - is no big deal at all. What is a big deal is getting behind that to the story of how anything could emerge to start the story in the first place. — apokrisis
People call Whitehead a process philosopher. I don't. I am arguing pansemiotics, not panpsychism. — apokrisis
And you don't need a middle ground between substance and process as the argument is that substantial being is a process. — apokrisis
The larger point is that religious thinking about science has a tendency to latch on to the uncertainties necessarily latent at the bleeding edge of science, rather than at any point where the scientific work is well established. In every case it's just low hanging, God-of-the-gaps bullshit, a kind of desperation to slot God in to any (rapidly diminishing) space available. A theology with a bit of dignity ought to probably find the divine at work in everything, but then again, the theological engagement with the sciences gave up it's dignity long ago. — StreetlightX
Anyone who tries to 'prove God doesn't exist' has already conceded too much to theology - has taken God to be in any way a legitimate problem at all. — StreetlightX
Not God's 'existence' but his relevance ought to be perpetually put into question - which is why I much prefer 'naturalism' to 'atheism', insofar as the latter is still too oppositionally defined by a relation to the divine. I would prefer simply not to care about the very idea of God, let alone to argue 'against' it. — StreetlightX
One can only face palm at a comment like this. Does this everyday concrete stuff exist, or is it simply how we construct our experience of it? — apokrisis
What do you mean? I'm saying substantial being is a process. And that is opposed to the view that substance has fundamental existence rather than pragmatic persistence. — apokrisis
Great. — apokrisis
There's a great big world filled with suffering, sadness, pain, and need, and you sit idly by connected to a cold machine pushing a Sisyphus button with fervor. — Hanover
So it would be circular for a metaphysics to try to account for dynamical particulars in terms of "just more dynamics". A semiotic approach to metaphysics is different precisely because it accounts for universals in terms of sign relations. The realm of symbols - or informational constraints - gives the "universals" a real place to exist, much like Plato's realm of ideas. The difference is that this informational aspect of existence is thoroughly physicalist and doesn't need the mind or ideas to be a second kind of substantial being. — apokrisis
Whoosh. I hear the noise of words flying right over your head again. — apokrisis
But you can hardly claim to be saying anything interesting about metaphysics these days if you throw up your hands in horror when someone mentions holographic bounds and least action principles. — apokrisis
So as it says on the bottle, this is process philosophy. And both the particular and the universal are things that only "exist" in the sense of being features of processes. — apokrisis
The best way to ontologise that view is then - as Peirce did - to divide reality into constraints and freedoms. Universals are the contextual reality. They are the general habits, the global tendencies. And particulars are the events that are regularly produced, the outcomes that may share family similarities but also express an irreducible spontaneity or indeterminism. — apokrisis
Reality is the process of becoming real. And reality is characterised by its general stablity - its long-run, self-sustaining, dynamical equilibrium. To exist is really just to persist in a way where continuing change does not result in significant change. — apokrisis
That's right. That's why I am arguing against nominalism. — apokrisis
But how do properties emerge into crisp being if vague being isn't what they are leaving behind? — apokrisis
The problem with your kind of ontology is that it can't explain existence as a causal development. Existence is just some dumb brute fact. Or maybe God invented it. — apokrisis
Shame that hypothesis doesn't fit the facts then. The evidence that the cosmos keeps spitting out the same entities, the same patterns, can be seen everywhere we look. (Have you heard of fractals or powerlaws?) — apokrisis
So why the problem when I take something like universals to be real, and then offer a modern infodynamic account? — apokrisis
One can be a speculative naturalist without, for all that, simply falling into the black hole of scientism. — StreetlightX
It doesn't help either that the constant and brazenly fallacious appeal-to-ignorance that is the invocation of quantum theory is basically the last refuge of the theological scoundrel, having been driven from literally every single other explanatory level of existence other than where - surprise, surprise - the dark and fuzzy frontier of scientific knowledge lies. There's a reason you don't get religious kooks barking shrill over the divine properties of say, silicon chip engineering. At some point, apparently, the perpetual embarrassment tips over into shame. — StreetlightX
If the less-than-century year old debate over this disqualifies naturalism as a viable position, then theology ought to be once and for all confined not simply to the trashcan of history but it's landfill. — StreetlightX
Freedom is a funny thing. — Wosret
If one believes so then they will be inclined to start believing in their superiority over other groups of people or their absolute beliefs about themselves. Dangerous stuff. — Question
