This also involves the question of what is the significance of human consciousness in evolutionary processes? — Jack Cummins

Can you expand on this and offer up some kind of example (hypothetical if necesary).

Thanks :)

No, I think that's just logic. If spaces are divided by sex, then only sex should be considered for those spaces. — Philosophim

Yes. There are degrees where spaces are open to trans women that are open to women. There are contexts where trans women are not allowed in spaces (as in competitive physical sports) women occupy.

I think it is pretty ordinary to allow someone who looks and acts like a woman into a woman's space, just so long as they are not gaining an unfair advantage (hence how sports are beginning to handle this issue).

As with every area that involves personal freedoms there are bad actors and good actors. I do think this topic has kind of started to level off now, but maybe not. It would be nice to see people not acting on blind prejudices and just discussing in a reasonable manner. It can be hard sometimes though if the topic concerns yourself personally and there is an emotionally charged vibe in the room.

The biology is incidental to the social grouping, not constitutive of it. — Banno

Your choice of words. I was just rehashing what you said. I originally said:

Socially they are women and treated as women. The* (amened) simple fact that women give birth to children is not intrinsic to what it means to be a woman. My point was that over all human history (regardless of whether you use the specific term 'woman') people with breasts and people with penises are generally divided socially into reasonably clear cut groups. — I like sushi

Hopefully you now understand what I mean above. That biology does play a key role into how we socially divide people, because biological traits effect our roles in society. The role of giving birth is not one open to men. This is actually a rather significant part of how groups of people live together and various traditions arise due to this.

If you think the concept of 'woman' is more a social construct than something that exists more due to biological traits then we could probably go back and forth several times on this matter.

I am saying that due to biological traits people are neccesarily ordered into social categories. Males fight because they are stronger, and thus a social group that defines this activity is created. Likewise, females are the ones who give birth, and thus a social group that defines this actviity is created.

This also ties into my question:

You would not consider that biology is actually far more constituitive to social grouping than you currently believe it is? Incidental sounds weak to me. — I like sushi

If you believe what you said then clearly this is one major difference in how we are looking at this. Fair enough.

What do you think I was saying here? Use your head. Be charitable in how you interpret what is being argued.

This is not a guessing game. I imagine both yourself and the vast majority of people reading what I wrote within the context I wrote it understand perfectly well what I am getting at.

You know what I am saying. You are just playing an evasion game now.

The biology is incidental to the social grouping, not constitutive of it. — Banno

You would not consider that biology is actually far more constituitive to social grouping than you currently believe it is? Incidental sounds weak to me.

Yes, literally. If "woman" is seen as a gendered role rather than merely a sex role, the trans women are women. — Banno

Do you think men fighting rather than women is a 'gender role' that has nothing to do with biology? It is clearly a biological difference we are talking about here that groups men as fighters and women as non-fighters.

Interesting comment about historicism. The idea that women are historically bound to certain biological interpretations of that term sounds historicist...? — Banno

A boy is a young male, and a man is a mature male - not based on social constructs.
A trans boy is a trans boy, and a trans man is a trans man - these are social constructs.

I have no huge issue with conceding that a trans man/woman falls into a broader social category of what a man or woman is. Legally there are differences between a woman and a trans woman. If the law is understanding there are underlying biological conditions that group trans women differently to women then it is not really about some linguistic nuance.

Issues may arise if people start saying 'I am a man' instead of saying 'I am a trans man'. In day to day life this has little to no bearing though. No one I know has ever declared their gender to me upon first meeting and I would find it kind of strange if they did.

Post-menopausal women are women. Infertile women are women. A woman does not cease to be a women by having a hysterectomy. Women have chromosomal or gonadal variations. And trans women in many social, legal, and linguistic practices are women. Demonstrably, the term “woman” is coherently used in ways that do not involve reproductive function. — Banno

I think you missed the point I was making.

Post-menopausal women are women. Infertile women are women. A woman does not cease to be a women(a) by having a hysterectomy. — Banno

Irrelevant to what I was saying. Women give birth to children. If someone loses all their limbs we do not cease calling them human. There are cases where there are circumstances where male chromosome people present physically in many ways as female due to congenital hormonal issues. Socially they are women and treated as women. That simple fact that women give birth to children is not intrinsic to what it means to be a woman. My point was that over all human history (regardless of whether you use the specific term 'woman') people with breasts and people with penises are generally divided socially into reasonably clear cut groups.

To be sure, the argument here was that there are multiple ways to use "woman",[u]all of them well founded[/u]; and that "A trans woman is a woman" is true in several of them. And this is all that is needed to show the issue with the OP. — Banno

Well, not literally. Saying "A trans woman is a woman" is as true as saying something like "Hunting elephants can help prevent their extinction". Both are true. The problem is in both cases they need to be explained beyond ordinary assertion and in very specific circles of understanding. No doubt many would assume that hunting elephants does nothing to prevent their extinction.

Your main concern is the Truth of the statement? Is so it makes better sense to say trans 'women are women, but ...'. Bracketing out the common linguistical ground for how terms are used in colloquial circles does not seem to help highlight the Truth of the statement.

The most common term I can think of in the English langauge that carries with it a tonne of baggage is 'race'. I am in a rush so will just say that 'race' is a term that has straddled scientific and common parse alike. Now we have muddy waters that cause a lot of problems and needless obfuscation. It appears that is precisely where genders studies is going to (already has to some degree) land us.

Etymologically, it's a combination of wif and man, the need for the addition of "man" showing how "man" was neutral - "person". Wif might be from a PIE term for pudenda,(*ghwibh-) hence "pudenda-person", or "*weip", to wrap, a reference to face scarves. All a bit uncertain. So it's not clear that it originally has a sexual tone. — Banno

You will have to explain further why this matters. I was refer to the concept of woman in societies. Not a huge fan of historicism other than as a curiosity. Please explain why you see it as relevant.

I think what the issue may be is stating the intpretation is binary. Clearly not.

What I would contend is that 'woman' is inexably used as a term that presents sexuality in regards to actual sexual acts and reproduction.

To say that the term woman is purely a gendered term is blatantly wrong. To say that the term woman is purely a biological term is blatantly wrong.

It is impossible to follow up on the claim that the term 'woman' is not inexcractibly linked to female and sexual reproduction (both biologically and socially). It is not reasonable to say that 'female' is inextractibly linked to the purely gendered use of 'woman'.

You have to be really careful when reading what I have said above. They are not saying the same thing. Sexual activity (society) with reproduction leads to the existence of the term woman in the first place.

You are not reading my statement with a charitable outlook then. — Philosophim

I was reading it critically. What you wrote is what you wrote. If you meant something specific then be specific rather than rely on charitable interpretations.

Pointing out how your words may be read is a 'charitable' act. If you wish I can stay silent in the future.

You have an oddly hostile response here. — Philosophim

Perception.

I was discouraged every step of the way to 'stay in a lane', 'find what was popular' and just comment on old works to meet publishing quotas. — Philosophim

This kind of context helps. The reason for this is if you want to get papers published you are more likely to get published in areas that are hot topics. This is generally sound advice to someone pursuing a Phd.

Both Phd and Masters are about showing method rather than creating any ground breaking work.

If I had to guess its because questions from children are often simple to answer while questions from adults are not. — Philosophim

I think this is backwards. The simple questions are often mistaken as insignificant. Th ekin dof questions adults ask are relatively stupid and ideologically charged. The purity of innocence that children possess leads them to cut through the slop of so-called 'maturity'.

Children's statements and questions cut to the bone more so than most adults.

I left because I worked more than 40 hours a week in a thankless job. I taught math and constantly told kids to get a good math based degree to make good money. Took my own advice eventually. — Philosophim

I have never suggested to a single student that they should choose their degree based on what income they may be able to make. Any independent businessman I have ever spoken to states one key point in their success: Do something you care about. The reason being when the shit hits the fan you stick to it because you care.

I ask students what they want to be. Those who say 'rich' often have no idea what they wish to do once they have 'money'. Pressing this question I feel is the most relevant question to ask students in regards to their future. Goals without reasons are empty dreams.

Correct. I feel philosophy is uniquely fitted to take this on and yet it has no brave pioneers pushing it to address current events. A large part of this is the field I feel, is set up to stop pioneers and original thinkers. It is ironically a very conservative and traditional field. — Philosophim

Be brave. Tell us.

Every field of interest is full of people who are apathetic to some degree or another. Philosophers at least tend to be more self-reflective than in other fields I have found. There is a built in scepticism as it is clear to see how many commonly held views can seem like they lie on a solid rational foundation.

If anything, there are faults in philosophy (as well as science) due to how outsiders misrepresent and misuse what is being said.

A lot of people are just plain stupid. This is probably mainly due to poor education and being told to prioritise 'money' above personal passions and intrigue ... but some a re just plain dumb. No way around that until neural implants take off.

I can recommend something to read?

Popper's 'The Open Society and Its Enemies'. I think you would find it an interesting read judging by what you are questioning here.

Probably best to think of it as fundamental elements. It most certainly is an annoying term!

When it comes to ethics I am interested in metaethics, which is more or less looking at the fundaments of what ethics means, how valid it is and what alternative perspectives there are of looking at behaviours and ideas considered as ethical that can be framed as something apart or a part of ethics.

Think of it as what aliens would do if they came across a TV for the first time. They would explore its function, purpose and what it consists of. They may never figure out its use doing so but they would certainly be able to discover a lot about the object before them.

There is a lot of jargon across academia. I think when it comes to the sciences and philosophy it is often needed. Beyond that it is just pure obfuscation used in an attempt to make something look intellectual-- Foucault, Heidegger and Derrida are some examples of this in philosophy. That is not to say just because people do it they mean to always fool the reader, but some do, and themselves too just as often.

It is a lesson in being concise so as not to trick youself. If you find the term useless do not use it and question it when you see it used. I have struggled with the very same issue as you too. Just stay alert and keep questioning what people mean and if they are really saying anything at all :)

With a simple smattering of charity you could just have offered that they are maybe trying to say that phenomenon is all we have via sensibility?

@Corvus I think that is all that is being said?

I'm not being stubborn, but I just don't see how it follows. If you said, "Anything beyond is not anything for us," I'd see your point. But why would you assert that "for us" encompasses all there is? — J

Have you read Kant? If you have then refer to what he says about negative and positive noumenon.

Nothing more to say (you can search this very site to find examples of myself and others pointing out this difficult obviousness).

Because what 'is' for us is all there is for us. Anything beyond is not anything. (again, Kantian noumenon).

We cannot even speculate about what we cannot ever comprehend; therefore, there is nothing we cannot speculate about or comprehend. — J

I think you made a mistake there.

Because we can only experience what we experience. We can discover only what is availble to us via experience-- because that is all there is for us.

We cannot even speculate about what we cannot ever comprehend. This is basically Kantian Noumena (a term which defies itself!). Obvious, but confusing if you get hold of the wrong end of it.

If someone is satiated then they must experience something negative. Furthermore, someone who does not feel any negativity prior to some pleasure feels the pleasure in a more muted manner than those who have suffered somewhat for said pleasures.

It is probably here where we can claim that a 'bad' pleasure would be overly harmful negativity. The key is to balance and find the sweet spot. This is more of less where Aristotle ended up.

Does the article actually show modelling and probablity though? No. It is simply a far flung hypothetical. Next week they will be running something like 'What would happen if we were hit my an asteroid?'

Nothing wrong with speculating about all manner of things. There is something intrinsically wrong with pushing an agenda when the facts do not align with the data though. I cannot read the article so no idea what it says or what it concludes. I like the New Scientist because it does cover some more niche ideas so I hope they did a decent job of it?

It wouldn't hurt to listen to Berlin here in terms of what philosophical discourse has to offer people:

An Introduction to Philosophy - Isaiah Berlin & Bryan Magee (1977)

Initial thoughts on it? Looks kind of interesting.

Stupidity has its boons my friend ;)

Well I’m not in a position to argue with that. — Punshhh

If you can so readily admit that you are wiser than most people most of the time (possibly myself included). It is tough thing to question one's views and understand that they are in part driven by beliefs rather than any substantial evidence-based reasoning.

Human stupidity has its advantages though :) Sometimes we accidently do something extraordinarily amazing that no person of reasonable intelligence woudl ever have tried in the first place! :D

I said this:

I've just learnt over time that when it comes to scientific analysis in the public sphere it is always hyperbolic. When it comes to actual human atrocities on other humans it is usually underplayed. — I like sushi

Someone followed up with an example of such hyperbole.

My original point was that the main concern I have is with predictable weather causing huge disruptions to food supplies and widespread famine > and the other horsemen too if severe enough.

It all started with this:

Don’t forget when the tropics become uninhabitable. — Punshhh

Which is hyperbole.

FIN bye

It is serious, but I can see solutions to that... — ChatteringMonkey

We have no food. You have food > War. Planning ahead would be nice and there are schemes in place already to try and diversify. I doubt it woudl be truly global tbh, but I can see some nations losing out if farming became unpredictable for several staple crops in just one season.

If you go below certain thresholds of bio-diversity the whole network could collapse, and then we're talking millions of years to recover. — ChatteringMonkey

This is hyperbole.

A potential globewide famine is kind of serious. Biospheres being wipedout is not ideal, but nature would recover faster than I imagine human civilisation would in the event of widespread famine.

I've just learnt over time that when it comes to scientific analysis in the public sphere it is always hyperbolic. When it comes to actual human atrocities on other humans it is usually underplayed.

That is nto goign to happen. I think some of the scaremongering is finally coming to an end.

The only serious threat from climate change--and it is serious--is unpredictable weather cycles that disrupt farming. Other than that there will be bumps in the road not a a collapse of civilisation.

Question, doubt and speculate.

Avoid conclusive answers outside of abstract structures.

This is not shameless promotion as I have barely any time to write on here anymore but it probably touches on the kind of thing you are talking about. Popper's poitn about the transition from Closed to Open Society is somethign I feel is too readily overlooked:
Open Society, Open Wound

Neither you or Banno can tell the difference between "identical" and "epistemically identical", apparently. — Millard J Melnyk

Can you explain as clearly and as succinctly as possible then please?

Aristotle basically was the first of the Greeks to lay down our modern scientific process (feel free to attack and debate this...). — ProtagoranSocratist

I think I heard most say Hobbes laid down the foundations of Modern Science.

With writing in general, I think the most popular principal is concision: you try to take something you write and remove as many words as possible, getting a similar message across. However, many would argue that such an approach doesn't always work, especially when describing something complex. — ProtagoranSocratist

I agree. I like the way Kant put it in COPR (not that I memorised verbatim). He said in trying to say somethign precisely we can make it fairly obtuse. I also like Husserl's approach about diving into the 'obvious'.

If possible I think a multifacted approach is best. Be both concise and then back it up with greater detail where needed. I think of Heidegger here, as for me he wasted a lot of paper explaining concepts I already took to be obvious. I am certain there are texts out there I woudl read and need greater detail where others would not. This is just the nature of our own individual starting points.

To make the question more direct and concrete, what philosophy writing will make your writing survive better through the ages, what philosophy writing will receive little in the way of fame, praise, or hostility? — ProtagoranSocratist

All I can say abotu this is that people come along and generally change the landscape of philosophy a little by reiterating those who came before them more concisely OR by applying old ideas for modern application, which can reveal something of quite unique interest.

I feel where we are the moment is in a state where too many people have too narrow a field of interest. I think we need more of Berlin's 'Foxes' who have a more comprehensive overview of various subjects, rather than being confined to their own little corners--often oblivious to how misguided some of their thoughts are.

To look deeper into this I think takigna page from writers of fiction could be of extreme use. Neitzsche was someone who broke the mould in some ways, but sadly I think too many recently have tried to mimic his approach instead of doing how he instructed--to rise above and discover yourself beyond yourself.

I can. You are using terms in one specific context and then saying this meaning they are identical in other contexts.

Premises:
[1] Epistemically, belief and thought are identical.
[2] Preexisting attachment to an idea motivates a rhetorical shift from “I think” to “I believe,” implying a degree of veracity the idea lacks.
[3] This implication produces unwarranted confidence.
[4] Insisting on an idea’s truth beyond the limits of its epistemic warrant is irrational. — Millard J Melnyk

1) This depends on how you are using the terms 'belief' and 'thought'. A belief can be a thought (I guess where it is not it woudl be referred to as somethign liek an 'Alief'), but a thought cannot be a belief.
2) Nothing is certain unless framed in an abstract framework. Having a degree of belief is perfectly rational (ie. believing a dice roll of 6 is more probable than not if I roll it 100 times).
3) No. It is called doubt and/or scepticism. These are kind of important. It is not unwarranted to state that a 100 dice rolls will almost certainly result in rolling a 6 (Entropy is evidence of highly improbable thigns being reclassified as 'impossible' for common purposes).
4) Insisting that belief and thought do not differ is to take an irrational stance. You have stepped beyond the limits of what such language is capable of by tagging colloquial language as if it is a mathematical truth.

The objection I presented is that we can think something without believing it. It follows that belief and thought are not identical. — Banno

I think it is fair to say that there are given contexts where they are used synonymously, yet even then we could perhaps extend this and say they are identical in the sense that light blue and dark blue are identical as being shades of blue. Meaning, both are ponderings.

Because the gap between “I think” and “I believe” seems to be hallucinatory. — Millard J Melnyk

In given contexts they are most certainly synonymous. "I believe I am breathing" is hardly the same as me saying "I think I am breathing". The first is an ironic statement and the second is a flight of fancy.

Beliving something and Thinking it are quite different in some contexts and practically identical in others. It is irrational to say Blue can mean Sad and that Red can mean Passion that all colours are synonymous with this or that emotion. This is kinda what you are doing with Think and Believe.

I do not think so. We can trust someone's opinion but it is necessarily based on our own misjudgments of character.

When I think of trust I think of friendship and the people I can rely on to say what is difficult to say rather than say nothing. Trust for me is an Active Function not passive

It is precisely the insistance of some 'God'/'Law' given Right that leads to their abuse. For those they matter too they do not even need to be mentioned.

Do we really want to end up sounding like people who say things like not believing in God means you have no morals.

Human Rights are not upheld in many countries because they have different laws. We can amend laws, to some degree, but they are not the be all and end all of individual human actions. I would argue they are small things compared to the power of individual human will. To question what we will is basically how laws come into being.

Anyway, maybe this is not the thread for this. No intention of derailing, so I guess it can be taken up elsewhere.

You are checking to see if a social construct fits into another social construct. That is why I pointed out that human rights are social constructs.

Things like religious rights are not so important to the devote. They will do as they do regardless of any reasonable arguments against them. Reason has limits.

Human Rights - Human rights are rights inherent to all human beings, regardless of race, sex, nationality, ethnicity, language, religion, or any other status.

We can specify this further with personal and group rights. — Philosophim

Human Rights are a social construct. We are not born with legal documents that are backed up by some higher power. This is something that is so blatantly obvious that people miss it and construe our creation of Human Rights as something we have always possessed.

I believe this may help focus how people approach legal rights.

Everything will be fine. Don't sweat it.

Seriously. Just because we are stupid and focus on negative things more than positive it does not mean there is nothign positive going on.

I am right. You are wrong. Because I say so.

Infallable!