He taught that the Bible had multiple levels of meaning and that it should be interpreted allegorically as well as literally. He believed that the literal meaning of scripture was the surface level, but that beneath that there were deeper spiritual truths that could be understood through allegory and symbolism. — Wayfarer

The problem with allegorical and symbolic interpretations is that they can make a writing mean anything at all. Sam Harris makes the point better than I could in his recipe analogy.

You can google "Sam Harris recipe" for many links which mention it.. Below is a cut and paste from one link for convenience.

Harris walks into a bookstore (Barnes & Noble), and with his eyes closed, randomly grabbed a book and opened it at random. The book was called “A taste of Hawaii: New Cooking from the Crossroads of the Pacific.”

Here’s what Harris wrote in the end-note.

“And therein I discovered it as yet uncelebrated mystical treatise. While it appears to be a recipe for seared fish and shrimp cakes with tomato relish, we need only study list of ingredients to know we are in the presence of unrivaled spiritual intelligence. Then I list the ingredients: One snapper fillet cubed, three teaspoons of chopped scallions, salt and freshly ground pepper… there’s a long list of ingredients.

Then I go through with a mystical interpretation of this recipe. The snapper fillet is the individual himself. You and I, awash in the sea of existence, and here we find it cubed which is to say that our situation must be remedied in all three dimensions of body, mind, and in spirit. They have three teaspoons of chopped scallions, this further partakes of the cubic symmetry suggesting that that which we need add to each level of our being by way of antidote comes likewise in equal proportions. The import of the passage is clear: the body, mind, spirit need to be tended with the same care. Salt and freshly ground black pepper; here we have the perennial invocation of opposites. The white and black aspects of our nature. Both good and evil must be understood if we would fulfil the recipe of spiritual life. Nothing after all can be excluded from the human experience. This seems to be a tantric text. What is more, salt and pepper come to us in the form of grains which is to say that the good and bad qualities are born at the tiniest actions and thus we’re not in good or evil in general but only by virtue of innumerable moments which color the stream of our being by force of repetition. Then this dash of cayenne pepper: clearly a being of such robust color and flavour signifies the spiritual influence of an enlightened adept. I go on and on and this is all bullshit because it’s meant to be bullshit.”

If the Bible says Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, but the Quran says God neither begets nor is begotten, then, at best, followers have no choice but to agree to disagree. At worse, they can have a war to decide who is right. — Art48

Why is their disagreement cause for such alarm? — Hanover

The very first sentence in your first post in this thread mentions alarm, which does not appear in the original post. I'm happy to defend WHAT I POSTED. If you disagree with something in the original post, please cite the specific sentence(s) and we can proceed from there. If not, then I'll agree to disagree and move on.

In any event, if you're going to post an OP, it would seem reasonable that you defend it and not just simply try to declare a truce. — Hanover

I'm happy to defend what I posted. If you disagree with something in the original post, please cite the specific sentence(s) and we can proceed from there.If you have multiple disagreements, let's do one at a time to avoid confusion. Deal?

Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

You are arguing an immutability of religious views — Hanover

As I mentioned, religions can and do change their teachings, by reinterpreting or ignoring scripture but not by repudiating scriptural verses. If you disagree, can you provide an instance where a religion admitted a scriptural verse was wrong?

Your comments only point to your lack of knowledge of those denominations that do allow for the complete rejection of certain religious tenants — Hanover

What denominations reject scriptural passages? Witches and slavery demonstrate certain scriptural passages can be ignored. But that's not the same as saying the passages are morally wrong and not from God.

It is very clear that the Bible has nothing kind to say about homosexuality — Hanover

It is quite clear to whom? The following verses are from Leviticus:
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Chapter 18 verse 22
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." Chapter 20 verse 13

You are arguing an immutability of religious views — Hanover

I clearly say views are mutable (as in the case of slavery and witches).
I'm beginning to feel our exchanges are a waste of time..

You are also arguing that there is this monolithic structure called "Religion" that each and every organization under that category must meet in order for it to be a religion. This leads to an impossible effort on your part to explain how Fundamentalist Baptists, for example, are similar to Reform Jews to the extent they both hold to the same interpretative systems. — Hanover

Wow. Another view I do not hold. Let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

Hanover,

Physicists can say Newton was wrong. Can you cite a similar instance in religion?
Of course, religions change. But do they ever repudiate scriptural teachings? No.

Christianity no longer kills "witches". But has it ever said "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Ex 22:18) is wrong and not of God? Of course, not. It can't because of its epistemological method.

Has it repudiated the chapters of Exodus which give rules for enslaving? No.

Revelation's first chapter (as I noted above) has a false prophecy. Can Christianity acknowledge that? No.

Some Christians take Genesis literally. Others in interpret it metaphorically. None that I'm aware of reject it.

I once made a list of some of the ways scripture is massaged to make it say what is desired. Here it is.

To properly understand the Bible, one must: 1) not read too superficially 2) not read too literally, 3) understand the overall context, 4) refer to the meaning of the original ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words, 5) understand the meaning of the words in their ancient linguistic/grammatical context, i.e., proper exegesis, 6) understand verses in their larger historical and literary context, i.e., proper hermeneutics, 7) be led by spirit not by mere words (“for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life” 2 Corinthians 3:6)

But saying scripture is just plain wrong is not in the list.

" According to your argument, that hospital ought not to exist, and nobody working there could describe themselves as Christian, yet it does, and they do."
According to your straw-manning of my argument.

My argument is that religions cannot repudiate their sacred texts because of their childish epistemological method. But then can, and do, in cases ignore the writings. That's why the hospital treated your wife with skilled surgeons and nurses, not casting out demons and forgiving her sins.

Here's another case in point. The first page of Revelation describes things which must "soon come too pass". It then describes the Second Coming.
The Second Coming has not come "soon". Revelation is wrong.
But what Christian preacher can admit that simple, obvious fact?

Wayfarer,

I have no problem with the idea “they are descriptions of different manifestations of the Ultimate”. But “and as such they do not conflict with one another” is obviously wrong. Either Jesus is God or he isn’t. Either heaven/hell awaits us, or reincarnation. Etc.

But this is all besides the point, which is that once a religion accepts certain writings as scripture, then the writings cannot be repudiated. For centuries, physicists believed Newtonian Mechanics was accurate and true. But science’s epistemological method allowed them to change their minds and accept Einstein’s theories. Have any Christians repudiated any teachings of Jesus as wrong? Not likely. Why? Because religion uses a childish “a special person said/wrote this so it must be true" epistemology.

Google “child dies because parents religious beliefs” Even today, Jesus’ nonsense description of disease as caused by sin and demons, and his cure of prayer and fasting, is still accepted by Christians. Can any of them say Jesus was wrong? It would save the lives of children. But they can’t say it and remain a Christian.

Hanover,
And you need to learn how to read a post and respond to what the post actually says.

Hanover,

You write: Why is their disagreement cause for such alarm?
You write: you can't then say that the theology that follows is not subject to criticism and debate within the particular ideology.
You write: you're rejecting religions that insist there is one simple reading of a particular sacred work and that it is not subject to debate or interpretation

I never said any of those things. Try re-reading the original post.

You write: If you want to criticize those religions that do that, have at it, but that would be a criticism of certain religions and not of religion generally. That leaves open the possibility of accepting religion, but denying the very simple criticisms you assert in the OP.

The fundamental criticism of the OP is religions’ faulty, childish epistemological method. If you know of a religion which is not based on purported “sacred” writings, then let me know what it is. It’s certainly not Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or the various Hindu religions.

You had originally written "Religions do not agree but their prophets do."
I took that to mean that the sayings and/or writings of prophets agree with each other, which I don't believe.

But if you mean they experience the same reality, that's a different issue.
So, maybe you and I can agree that all "genuine" prophets experience the same Reality, but they express their experience differently, and so sometimes may disagree.

Many people wonder what happens after death.
If prophets agree about what happens after death, please enlighten us as to what they agree on.
(You can't do it.) — Art48
You ask me to show you something and then you say "(You can't do it.)".
I'll not bother arguing with someone who has completely made up their mind. — TheMadMan

Why not do it for the benefit of others who will read your post?
You can't do it because "prophets" disagree, about what happens after death and other things.

I've seen the idea that all religions (if followed far enough) eventually lead to the same place (God) because at some point, the person begins to follow God, not the religion. This is the "personal search for genuine knowledge and experience of God" referenced in the original post.

In this sense, it can be said that all religions ultimately agree, or ultimately lead to the same place.
But that's quite different than saying all prophets agree.

Another view, would be all "genuine" prophets experience the same Reality, but they express their experience differently, and so sometimes may disagree. However, "genuine" makes this statement tautological.

Religions do not agree but their prophets do. — TheMadMan

Many people wonder what happens after death.
If prophets agree about what happens after death, please enlighten us as to what they agree on.
(You can't do it.)

What God? You yourself said, correctly, that "religions do not, and cannot, agree", which means that the concept of "God" differs among them. And you confirm this later, by saying "different civilizations making up different stories about God." — Alkis Piskas

The idea is that there is a reality that deserves to be called "God" and the human civilizations have made several childish, erroneous attempts to describe that reality.

I wonder how much you've really thought through these statements. You don't elaborate much about it, so you end up with cliche: science good/true/real, religion bad/false/fictional. — Mikie

I've thought about them a great deal. Something I'm currently working on.
https://adamford.com/NTheo/NewTheology.epub
https://adamford.com/NTheo/NewTheology.pdf

Dr. Mengele and his colleagues have already shown us what it would look like if science were to "appropriate the fields of ethics and ultimate values for itself." — T Clark

One case doesn't prove anything. Christianity for centuries endorsed killing women for the "crime" of witchcraft and said slavery was A-OK. And then there was the Catholic Church's habit of transferring child-raping priests so then could rape again and again. If science is disqualified from speaking about ethics and ultimate values, then so is religion.

P.S. I didn't mean to condemn Luther entirely. In fact, there was a Catholic bishop (I forget who) who echoed his view. And, of course, the case of Galileo is well-known. The point was merely astronomy was once in the domain of religion but today is not.

To me, the ideas of papal infallibility and ex cathedra.demonstrate the nonsense that is often religion, the utter disregard of reality. Any rational organization would first ask itself if past popes had ever spoken ex cathedra but nonetheless been wrong. If it found even one, it would know papal infallibility and ex cathedra.are false.

I am myself a materialist (in the sense that I believe the material world is primary and that our subjective experiences arise directly from the physical) and have been trying to reconcile the idea of the "self", with a materialist worldview. — tom111

A different perspective is that I am consciousness, which is aware of sensations of various types: physical sensations, emotions, and thoughts. My ego is a thought or complex of thoughts which I believe to be the experiencer. Actually, the experiencer, the self, is awareness, consciousness, in which various sensations ebb and flow. I experience only sensations. A “material object” is an idea which I apply to certain bundles of sensations.

Isaac,
OK, but doesn't neuroscience presume a physical explanation is possible? Before the Michelson-Morley experiment, it was presumed light traveled in the luminiferous aether. Physics texts of the time discussed the luminiferous aether as if it were a real thing and presumed the physics of the day could eventually explain its properties. The closest I've seen to a physical explanation is the quantum microtuble explanation but that explanation is still hypothesis and not universally accepted.

Art48
What more would you need to know though? If you can explain what every physical state means mentally, then you've answered all the important questions. — khaled

This is exactly what I disagree with. Look at the mouse trap thought experiment. The spring has 2 physical states which perfectly correspond to 2 mental states (1. excitement/anticipation and 2. release/relaxation). But such correspondence in no way explains how a mouse trap could be conscious.I'd say there are important questions unanswered.

Your claim was not merely that it has not been, but that it could not be, explained (likened to trying to reach the earth from the moon by car). — Isaac

Yea, I see how that could mislead. My bad.

I am NOT saying that consciousness positively cannot be explained in terms of physical processes. (I don't think anyone can say that with certainty.)

In my defense, in addition to the moon comic, I do write “If consciousness somehow emerges from the fundamental forces, we have yet to understand how” and “We SEEM to be in a similar situation: no understanding of physical processes, however complete, explains consciousness.”

Isaac,
I'm always eager to correct my beliefs so if consciousness has been explained, please post some links to relevant papers and/or tell me who has succeeded in explaining it in terms of physical processes.
That would be much appreciated.

Update: A YouTube clip that addresses the question.
Do Complex Numbers Exist? (Sabine Hossenfelder)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALc8CBYOfkw&t=615s

— Does quantum mechanics need imaginary numbers? - Physics Today https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4955 — Andrew M

Final paragraph of the article is:
Neither Pan’s nor Fan’s group has yet closed the loopholes in their experiments. Technically, therefore, the jury is still out on whether real or complex numbers are the better descriptors of the quantum world. Still, it seems likely that future students of quantum mechanics will have no choice but to continue to grapple with the mathematics of imaginary numbers.

Seems like it's still an open question (with evidence leaning towards that complex numbers are necessary).

The Avella paper is a great resource. Thanks everyone.

What you are proposing in the OP is . . . the physical world is exactly the world of forms. Some form of idealism. — Banno

I’m not sure idealism applies. I’d say our consciousness directly experiences its physical, emotional, and mental sensations, and so we can be certain the sensations exist. (Much like “I think therefore I am” although I’d replace “think” with “experience”.) What causes the sensations? Are we a brain in a vat? Or are we experiencing the world more or less as it is? Or is what we experience Platonic forms? Or is there a monist entity responsible for what we experience? I can make some intelligent hypotheses, but I just don’t know.

I'd submit that consciousness is the very processing you dismiss. Again, you are not sitting inside your head looking at the results of the processing, but rather you are the processing. — Banno

I think of consciousness as what is aware of the sensations. I think some philosophers view consciousness in the same way. Thus, the “hard problem of consciousness.” And, thus, the concept of philosophical zombies, which have all the sensations but no consciousness.

Neuroscience can explain (to a certain degree) our bodily, emotional and mental sensations but I don’t think it can yet explain consciousness (except for the view that it’s “what the brain does,”, i.e., consciousness has a physical basis).

Excuse my being blunt, but it is wrong on multiple levels. There are far more than five senses. — Banno

Being blunt (or frank) is virtue. We get a lot more accomplished that way. And it helps me clarify my own thinking.

You write “There are far more than five senses.” As I noted when I mentioned ESP, more senses aren’t a problem. Emotions and thoughts, like our physical sensations, are inputs to consciousness. If it’s not one-way, if our emotional or mental state impacts what we sense, that, too, is not a problem.

The basic picture is that we have transitory physical, emotional, and mental sensations. Sensations imply a sensor, an experiencer. A criticism I’ve seen of the homunculus idea is infinite regress: who sees what the homunculus senses? I don’t see the same problem with consciousness. In effect, the buck stops with consciousness.

I see consciousness fulfilling the role of experiencer. Of course, this assumes we have an enduring self. Hume just saw sensations, not the self. I think the answer was Hume’s self—in my view, his consciousness—was the self he couldn’t find, just as the eye can see everything but itself.

So, consciousness is one answer to the question of how personal identity persists through time. To me, it’s the best answer. Historical continuity, for example, gives a kind of personal identity, but it seems a somewhat superficial type of identity.

You write “actual input” is misleading and mention neural network processing. But I mean input to consciousness, after all processing has been done.

If trees are found in the world, who finds them? Can you explain the tree-sensing sense that allows us to sense trees? Is there such a sense? If so, what is the organ of our tree-sensing sense?

When I introspect, my consciousness experiences a stream on physical, emotional, and mental sensations. I feel my consciousness is “me” while the sensations, because they are transitory, are not me. So, my view is not merely mental. It describes more or less how I experience myself.

If the meaning of "two" is a private concept in my mind, — Banno

In my view, it is not a private concept. It's a pre-existent idea which we encounter in the "mindscape," just as we encounter a pre-existent tree in the landscape. In my view, ideas are pre-existent.

The chief difficulty with Platonism is that while proposing a distinct type of reality of mathematical entities, it must then explain how this reality interacts with everyday things. — Banno

Good question What do you think of the following explanation for explaining interaction?

Regard a human being as having four-parts: body, emotions, intellect, and consciousness. Consciousness receives input from seven sources: the five bodily senses of sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch. It also receives input in the form of emotions and thoughts. (If an eighth sense, like ESP, exists, that won’t impact the argument.) So, when we “see” a tree, we actually see only light. (It could not be otherwise because we lack a specific tree-sensing sense). The actual input is patches of green and brown. Based on that input, the idea “tree” arises in our mind. If we “touch” the tree, we experience a rough surface, which gives us confidence that the tree is not an hallucination. If we see multiple patches of green and brown, the idea of number arises: we “see” two trees. So, it appears that “tree” and “two” are on equal footing: they are ideas which arise in our mind which help makes sense of the seven inputs.

This view, I think, is somewhat similar to Kant’s view that all we experience are phenomena. It differs in that it limits the phenomena we experience to sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, emotion and thought.

In this view, mathematical entities are not a distinct type of reality. They are ideas, just like “tree.”

Yet it can refer to objective reality, to things which exists independently of us. (There's a tree in my yard.). An image of the tree exists in your mind. But no actual tree is to be found between your ears. Similarly, math is a language that refers to objective reality, for instance, the number 2. — Art48
↪Art48
, words can be used to talk about stuff, sure. Are you suggesting that what is being referred to is the image of the tree in your mind rather than the tree in your yard? — Banno

In responding to "math is a language", I pointed out that language can refer to objective reality. The word "two" refers to the objectively real number 2, just as "tree" refers to an objectively real tree. I meant to say the tree image (or concept) in our mind corresponds to an objectively real tree, and the concept of "two" refers to something objectively real.

What if instead of "one mind creating the concept of 2", it is a construct of our communal capacity to use language — Banno

I just don't believe the concept of "2" is created. Yes, we come to apprehend it. But when we come to apprehend a tree, we don't believe we created it. I believe intelligent aliens would have the same concept of "2" as us.

Notice that Sherlock is not restricted to the mind of Doyle - after all, Sherlock is still around whilst Doyle's mind is long gone. — Banno

If Sherlock is still around, where? Somewhere in spacetime? No, it seems to me concepts exists outside spacetime.

Mathematics is a language. — Alkis Piskas

English is a language. Yet it can refer to objective reality, to things which exists independently of us. (There's a tree in my yard.). An image of the tree exists in your mind. But no actual tree is to be found between your ears. Similarly, math is a language that refers to objective reality, for instance, the number 2.

OK, if the number 2 is in spacetime, where is it? And when? — Art48
It exists in the mind as a concept, and it exists when I think about it, — RussellA

Does your mind create the concept of 2? Does the concept of 2 cease to exists when you stop thinking about it? And if you create it, can you make it anything you wish? Can your 2 be an odd number? If it's your concept, why not? Why can't your 2 be greater than your 3? Because numbers have objective properties.

In contrast, Sherlock Holmes existed as a concept in the mind of Arthur Conan Doyle. Therefore, Doyle had the freedom to describe Holmes. He could have made Holmes short, tall, British, Scots, or even French.. But 2 is objectively real. That's why you cannot give your 2 any properties you wish. When we say "2+2=4" we are talking about objective reality, not any particular 2 in the mind of any individual person.

The implications of numbers existing outside space-time are certainly truly staggering. — RussellA

OK, if the number 2 is in spacetime, where is it? And when?

Was mathematics invented or discovered? :
Both discovered and invented — Gnomon
More or less, although most math people give this question little thought. In my case, I was introduced to a notion years ago in my PhD studies. — jgill

I got an MA and did 2 years towards a math PhD (a PhD dropout, in other words). To me, math objects just seem to be there, much like a tree is there. I feel I can see numbers, fractions, etc., much like I see a tree. Mathematical Platonism seems to describe my experience.I read about Formalism but it doesn't "click" with me. P.S. there's a math prof on YouTube who questions if real number "really" exist. His name is N J Wildberger. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXdFGbuAoF0

How is two plus two equals four subsisting outside space-time different to two plus two equals four existing outside space-time ? — RussellA

I usually use "exist" for both cases. Another person brought up the exist/subsist distinction, so I used the word "subsist". Some philosophers (ex, Russell's "On Denoting" if I recall correctly) use the exist/subsist distinction where "exists" applies to things in spacetime, and "subsist" applies to abstract objects.

No. "Outside spacetime" is as incoherent as north of the North Pole. And to subsist is to be thought by minds which are, as I've pointed out already, embodied spatiotemporally; so the question remains doubly nonsensical to me. — 180 Proof

OK, I suppose that's one view of abstract objects. Another view is that they exist subsist outside spacetime. For instance, "two plus two equals four" subsisted and was true before the big bang.
In your view (if I understand it correctly) the thought "two plus two equals four" didn't exist immediately after the big bang because there were no minds to think it. Is that right?

We have quantum entanglement, which says that signals can travel faster than light. — Art48

No, quantum entanglement says measurements will be correlated - a very different thing. As physicist Asher Peres noted, "relativistic quantum field theory is manife — Andrew M

My understanding is that Einstein's famous "spooky action at a distance" concern was about something going faster than the speed of light. Here a quote from an article of Astronomy.com
- https://astronomy.com/news/2022/10/what-is-quantum-entanglement

"The strange part of quantum entanglement is that when you measure something about one particle in an entangled pair, you immediately know something about the other particle, even if they are millions of light years apart. This odd connection between the two particles is instantaneous, seemingly breaking a fundamental law of the universe. Albert Einstein famously called the phenomenon “spooky action at a distance.”

Does is make sense that mathematical functions exists outside spacetime?
Another incoherent question. Abstract objects subsist in minds and minds exist – are embodied – spatiotemporally. — 180 Proof

Good point. Some philosophers say that material objects exist but abstract objects subsist.
So, let's change the third question.

reality—that me, you, Earth, universe, etc.—is fundamentally some sort of abstract object SUBSISTING outside spacetime. — Art48

This makes no sense to me. — 180 Proof

Does it make sense to you that our deepest description of matter is the wavefunction?
Does it make sense that the wavefunction is a mathematical function?
Does is make sense that mathematical functions SUBSIST outside spacetime? — Art48

Does it make sense to you now?

reality—that me, you, Earth, universe, etc.—is fundamentally some sort of abstract object existing outside spacetime. — Art48
This makes no sense to me. — 180 Proof

Does it make sense to you that our deepest description of matter is the wavefunction?
Does it make sense that the wavefunction is a mathematical function?
Does is make sense that mathematical functions exists outside spacetime?

There is no such entity as "science" — Vera Mont

Similarly, there is no such entity as Vera Mont. Conversation over.

It fails to converge on a coherent picture of the spiritual universe. — Art48

Why would "it" even want to? Religion is not a single entity. It is legion. Why would you expect religions all to have the same world-view when political ideologies don't? The organized religious bodies are rivals, competing for hungry souls, each offering some version of what one man, or a committee, thinks the other people need. — Vera Mont

Science has found truth about the physical universe. There is no Christian chemistry, Islamic chemistry, and Buddhist chemistry. There is just chemistry

Religion has failed to find truth about the spiritual universe.That's why there is Christian dogma, Islamic dogma, and Buddhist dogma.

If religion doesn't want to find truth about the spiritual universe, then so much the worse for religion.

It doesn't fail. It doesn't want to converge on a coherent picture picture of the physical universe. — Vera Mont

It fails to converge on a coherent picture of the spiritual universe.

The disagreements are multiple. A short list:
Is faith alone sufficient for salvation, or are works needed too?
Is Jesus God. Christianity says yes, Judaism and Islam say no.
Do we go to heaven or hell when we die, or are we reincarnated?