I suppose this means that you’re not going to tell me about your little tower now. :sad: — "praxis

:snicker: Absit iniuria MAYAEL.

"Chaos" and "God" to be essentially the same thing? — punos

Ok, ok. My personal views on the matter are that chaos and God, other relevant concepts are simply values assigned to the variable primum movens (first cause). It appears to me that people fear ignorance more than falsehoods. Something's better than nothing!

The premise disputed was "deserving". — 180 Proof

Are you saying this as an is (the way the world is, a game of luck and business deals) or does it extend to ought too (how the world should be)?

What's your opinion on meritocracy and its variations?

That's the point, don't choose just do. Can you do? — punos

I'm afraid my brain won't allow it!

I'm not challenging you about your stance on "free will", i'm actually agreeing with you on this matter here and now. I personally don't care if you believe in "free will" or not, i thought i was having an academic discussion with you. Was i wrong, was it more than that?

I would find it regrettable to have a communication breakdown with you simply because we may have disagreed about one thing or another. — punos

It's just the way it is, oui? Ups and downs, crests and troughs, peaks and valleys, to and fro, rise and fall. We needn't let small misunderstandings get in the way of progress.

Coming back to the questions you put to me, I'd say I'm as much in the dark as everyone else is I suppose. Consider this report I got from my antivirus: 4 GB of junk files.

I don't understand. You don't want to clarify, not even a little? — punos

I'm afraid it isn't a choice I have/make.

Have a choice for what?
What do you mean exactly by "fit the oceans into a teacup"? — punos

:brow:

For better or worse I'm quantum illiterate!

All I can say is that we're trying to fit the oceans into a teacup. Not a good idea, but the thing is we don't have a choice!

NATO has to reinvent itself - open a department that doles out aid/grants/loans etc. if it's to stay relevant in the modern global climate. Once Russia falls, who's it going to pick as its next bogeyman (foil)? China? And after that? I dunno!

I was driving and this: Always ask on any topic whatsoever the question "What do (Ashkenazi) jews have to say about this?" A good rule of thumb given it is a proven fact that (Ashkenazi) jews have high IQ. Dear ol' Albert Einstein was a(n) (Ashkenazi) jew!

P. S. Please don't leave us. Danke in advance.

Apologies if this comes off as racist! Not my intention. Mods, feel free to delete the post if it's offensive in any way. Cheers!

I love this girl. I want to give her a gift, a box of chocolates. The problem is I don't know if she likes chocolates or despises them. I consider the options. What should I do? Then it hits me! I'll buy the box of chocolates for her; after all if she doesn't like chocolates, she can always decline to accept them. :snicker:

Why is NATO only supplying armas? It, as a strategic military alliance, lives upto its name, oui? It isn't exactly the go-to-guy in an armed conflict. Where's the peace deal that's supposed to be on parallel tracks?

If the only thing you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. — Maslow's hammer

All I can say is that the external material world isn't necessary. :snicker:

When purported knowledge mates with skepticism, faith is born!

What is time then? If nobody asks me, I know; but if I were desirous to explain it to one that should ask me, plainly I do not know. — St. Augustine

Vide Ludwig Wittgenstein, words are essentially essenceless.

Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know. — Laozi

1. Jews believe in God.

2. Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 900 individuals, of whom at least 20% were Jews (ref. Wikipedia)

Ergo,

3. God exists.

:snicker:

@Bartricks

So you upped the ante as it were. Not just suffering but, alack, undeserved suffering! Could we add another layer to this delicious antinatalist cake, please, pretty please?

Why's that ironic? Are you Alanis Morrissette? — Bartricks

:rofl: Absit iniuria Janus

Gratitude is a nonbinding IOU issued by some beneficiaries. :snicker:

Life is a karmic debt trap - once you're born, it's impossible to live a life without sin and once you sin, and you will, you enter into the vicious cycle of Samsara ($Birth \leftrightarrow Sin$). Quite the scheme, whoever is running it!

Humans are, in the most general of terms, bad, but paradoxically they're the only ones who know what good is. Momma nature, in my humble opinion, wields the h. sapiens double-edged sword like a pro. She, it seems, is prepared to make major sacrifices to ensure we last long enough to learn how to correct her flaws. We must press on! For our own sakes we must!

... as Variables are to Values. — 180 Proof

On target! Spot on, mon ami, spot on!

:ok: I was worried for this thread. It came close to derailment on a number of occasions.

@OP, Nice!

Not only is it that we can't gurantee happiness to children, it is their right, by virtue of their innocence, to be happy. Double whammy!

Most interesting. — Ms. Marple (a childless spinster)

Regarding the position of an electron in an atom, is the uncertainty, as captured by the probability distribution

1. Epistemological as in the electron does have an exact location, it's just that we don't know or it's unknowable.

2. Ontological as in the electron actually is in all those locations as described by the probability distribution. Pythagoras was said to be possess the ability of bilocation.

???

:chin:

Let us look at the OP's question in terms of necessary conditions instead of both that and sufficient conditions! I guarantee progress if we do so.

Reading your arguments, such as they are, entails suffering we do not deserve. — Bitter Crank

:rofl: Let us enjoy our suffering, mon ami! Let us.

Clearly our conceptual frameworks are either N/A or far too limited, too parochial, too earthly to answer cosmic questions. It's like asking a bacterium in a rain puddle to answer questions about the Pacific and that's being generous. Our brains simply can't get a handle on events/phenomena at the astronomical scales we're talking about here.

No harm in trying though!

I was not taking praxi's history into consideration I was simply responding to his negitive smart ass comment because the world has enough negative fighting going on everywhere and I didn't come here for that crap I came here to have a productive conversation and not feed dopamine to a narcissist, I'm sure he's a nice guy at times just like we all can be . — MAYAEL

Very balanced analysis! Gold star for you!

Questions are to Answers as Possibilities (darkness/imagination - doubt) are to Actualities (light/reason - certainty).

my phone apparently saved the comment I tried to post last night but I didn't have service so it apparently didn't post and so today I went to reply to that little shit head and I didn't see the tag for you on there so I edited it soon as it posted but apparently not fast enough but that wasn't meant for you in any way shape or form my apologies — MAYAEL

:ok:

a half a point is better then nothing! , I wonder how many pine points or who's line is it anyways points I can get with it? We need a forX for points lol — MAYAEL

You get points for exploring uncharted territory. :smile:

:brow:

Killing two birds with one stone, eh? Good job! I don't know about myself but I'm certain praxis doesn't deserve such vitriol!

Good day monsieur/mademoiselle.

"If you can't bring a person into a perfect version of their Utopia/Paradise, then it is wrong to bring that person into the world, period". — schopenhauer1

Some are willing to, as they say, settle for less which takes forms such as less suffering than joy or both in equal amounts or even more pain than pleasure given some idiosyncratic conditions are met. How would you convince such folks? We can't, can we? If the main premise of antinatalism is rejected right from the get go, antinatalism is a lost cause.

Food for thought: Assuming, arguendo, that objectively there's more suffering than joy in life or, worse, life is suffering à la Buddhism, is hell an adequate deterrent for those of immoral bent? People don't seem to mind or are we f*cking insane?

@Marvin Katz

1. Inclusivity principle. :up: I suggest that we have too broad a definition of "human" but only as an ad interim measure; it's the least worst option in my humble opinion.

2. Consistency principle. :up: Kantian in spirit. I propose that this to be provisional in the specifics; after all we need to bear in mind the possibility that new contradictory evidence may come to light.

That's all from me for now. Danke for the reply. It was illuminating in so many different ways.

Agent Smith doesn't exist. — Agent Smith

It's basically a catch-22 situation: For x such that Px, Px $\to$ ~x.

The liar sentence uses true/false, false to be precise, as a predicate. Is truth value a valid predicate? If no, how did Gödel break math with his incompleteness theorems?

:chin:

dark ages — Metaphysician Undercover

Any good reason why "it" was called "the dark ages"?

Wikipedia says that this was a period of cultural, intellectual and economic decline in Europe and surely because of that civilization as we know it was delayed by, what?, a coupla friggin centuries.

However, I'd like to compare morbidity and mortality statistics, adjusted for confounding factors, of the so-called dark ages with those of other ages. It matters in my humble opinion, oui? Quite possibly the dark ages were a period of relative peace. Dunno!

More so, I object to the notion that innocence is any kind of virtue, or bestows any kind of entitlement. It is no achievement and merits no reward, not even temporary existence, for which and to which it already owes its life. — unenlightened

Most interesting. — Ms. Marple

Innocence, in this world, as it is, the sooner you lose it the better! Every innocent person has a piece of paper stuck on their back that reads "kick me!" Oui, monsieur?

:smile:

Eureka!

People opt for Christianity for a very simple reason viz. Jesus was persecuted - tortured horribly and then crucified in the deserts of the Levant (as per Bibilical sources). Connect the dots mon ami, connect the dots!

Then there's a more mundane reason - Christianity buys converts, at least in the poorer parts of the world.

Hmmmm...

You get half a vote from me for your thesis.

Doubting Thomas!