Comments

  • Critical thinking and Creativity: Reading and Writing
    So it Isn't that people don't see it. What other reasons could there be for lack of an article submission ?

    Perhaps:

    1.Those that have the ability to write such simply weigh up the pros and cons and don't think It's worth it. Wouldn't they be looking at publishing in a physical, established magazine like Philosophy Now.
    I am not sure about the monetary reward. I think someone once told me that they receive a free annual subscription. Are there copyright issues ?
    2. Some might be put off by the wording and don't feel ready to Submit. Encouragement and feedback throughout the writing process might produce more results.
    3. An initial stimulus or prod suggesting a theme that members could compete in writing about.
    Amity

    Yeah, I had an article published in Philosophy Now a long long time ago, and I received a year's subscription.

    Otherwise I'm not sure. It could simply be that while that discussion was pinned, we didn't have many members. The forum's grown a lot since then.
  • Critical thinking and Creativity: Reading and Writing
    I did find it difficult to find information about articles. It comes under 'article submissions' stuck between 'Feedback' and 'About TPF'. The headline 'ARTICLES' at top of page only takes you to the one and only article ever published ( as far as I can remember ).Amity

    If my memory serves me right, I had the Submit an article for publication discussion pinned at the top of the forum for a year or more, and we got almost nothing.
  • Brexit
    I'm interested in hearing jamalrob's opinion on proceedings.Evil

    Hi Evil. I don't think I have the heart for this debate any more. Who knows, maybe I'll muster the energy to gather up my tatty old opinions for another try, but maybe not.
  • The subject in 'It is raining.'
    Unless you go with the Bitter Crank-Terrapin view that "it" refers to the conditions (which is the view of at least one linguist, so Google tells me), it's just a dummy subject, stuck in there to satisfy the syntactical rules of English. In Spanish you'd say "llueve". There's no subject, because of the way Spanish works.

    So along with some others here I suspect it's not a philosophical issue.

    EDIT: Just noticed that Dawnstorm made the same point.
  • Is our dominion over animals unethical?
    A question with a view to showing that ethics is about the things we value and not merely about moral comprehension: if I destroy the Mona Lisa for no reason other than wanton destructiveness, is it a simple category mistake to call the action immoral?
  • Is our dominion over animals unethical?
    I'm sure you can imagine examples. The point is to show that our actions in respect of people or babies or animals or dead bodies or psychopaths do in fact take place in a moral sphere independently of any assessment of individual criteria such as future moral comprehension. The concepts of right and wrong do in fact, in real-world communities, apply to those actions. I take you to be arguing either (1) that they should not apply, that perhaps people all over the world have made a mistake, or (2) for a meta-ethical position whereby you think that the only reason we apply the concepts of good and bad to our treatment of others is that we recognize that they are, or will be, moral agents--that they have individually satisfied some criteria (and hence that principled veganism is based on a mistaken assessment). If your position is the latter, then it seems to me that our moral concern for people with severe cognitive impairment, for the dead bodies of our loved ones, and for pet animals stand as counterexamples.

    You do not treat a person well because you've established that they have the mental capacities that you deem to be requirements for morality. And if you treat a person well on that presumption, you do not suddenly treat them as morally insignificant if you later find out that they lack those capacities.

    But my wider point was that ethics just is about human actions concerning the things we value. We value pet dogs and most non-psychopaths would not wish to see them tortured. This is an ethical matter despite a dog's possible lack of moral comprehension. Do you disagree?

    EDIT: The even wider point is that I think you are appealing to an intuition that is close to my own view, which is about species membership and the moral sphere of human society (which includes animals, though not as moral agents). I.e., I think that individual capacities are a red herring.
  • Is our dominion over animals unethical?
    The case with infants is different, the infant will grow up and gain moral comprehensionDingoJones

    But take the generalized AMC. Some infants may not ever gain moral comprehension--it could be some kind of severe mental disability--and yet they would, obviously I think, remain morally significant.
  • Is our dominion over animals unethical?
    This probably doesn't go any way towards answering you, but note that I should have said something like: "That is, you could argue that species membership justifies the exploitation (the use) of animals". I didn't mean to suggest an argument in which species membership justifies any treatment that is currently practised, like cruelty.
  • Is our dominion over animals unethical?
    By the way, @Sir2u amd @DingoJones: the omnivore argument is pretty lame. Surely people here should agree for the sake of argument with the very reasonable proposition that all people could conceivably live healthy lives without animal products? Principle of charity and all that.
  • Is our dominion over animals unethical?
    Our interaction with animals is not an ethical matter. Ethics are a social contract which animals cannot agree too. What animals DO abide by is nature, survival. That is something humans are capable of understanding, and Id go further and say that humans are already doing that. We are a part of the food chain after all. Its just incoherent, to me at least, to include them in ethics. Even if we ignore that and we focus only on what humans can do to measure animals according to our rules, wouldnt we be obligated to do everything we can to reduce the suffering of animals inflicted by other animals? It doesnt make sense.DingoJones

    I can go along with your position that interactions between non-human animals are not governed by morality, and that animals are not moral agents. The trouble is that the human treatment of animals is part of the moral sphere, simply owing to their involvement in our practices. In doing things with animals we involve them in our relations with each other, and the "ethicality" of those intrahuman relations is thereby in a manner of speaking transferred on to the direct relations between humans and animals.

    I think just about anything can be "included in ethics" that concerns human actions, so the human treatment of animals is or can be an ethical matter. Let's agree that animals are not moral agents. Does it follow that human actions involving them are not a matter for ethics? I don't think so. Some version of the argument from marginal cases (AMC) can be used to show this. E.g., the treatment of infants is a matter for ethics even though they might have no concept of right and wrong.

    Notice that the AMC is not here being used to argue for anything so strong as animal rights, and in my opinion it doesn't even show that the exploitation of animals is wrong. What it shows is that human actions that involve beings--human, non-human, and maybe even non-living (dead bodies)--without the mental abilities we consider as normal for humans--such as the concept of self, right and wrong, and temporal self-awareness--are ethically significant, or can be.

    One intuitive way to see how this is so is to observe that the cruel treatment of animals may do harm to humans. The knowledge of cruel practices, and certainly the witnessing of or taking part in those practices, may have a brutalizing effect on people. I don't want to make any argument depend on this, but it's one way to look at it.

    And it seems to me quite difficult to claim that the treatment of pets is not an ethical matter, which your position implies.

    Now if I'm right and it is an ethical matter, you could still argue that it is not wrong to exploit animals, perhaps by invoking the significance of species membership (which includes the so-called "marginal cases"). That is, you could argue that species membership justifies our treatment of animals, even though it doesn't justify the claim that the treatment of animals is not ethically significant at all. This would probably be something like my own position, e.g., we can eat meat without doing wrong, so long as we don't treat the animals cruelly.
  • Direct Realism as both True and False
    The effects: conscious experiences, will never be the things they are experiencing. It is nonsensical to even think that could be the case, and to even ask the question: "How can we see things as they really are?"Harry Hindu

    Yes indeed.

    215. Here we see that the idea of 'agreement with reality' does not have any clear application. — Wittgenstein, On Certainty
  • Dennett on Colors
    Darwin explicitly uses it as a metaphor. I can't see in what way he treats it as a deity. On the contrary.

    Otherwise, you seem to be railing against the popular conception of evolution. I agree that people get it wrong, but in my experience they don't seem to misunderstand it in the way you describe, and in any case I don't see how such misunderstandings are caused by a metaphor.

    EDIT: By far the worst popular misunderstandings of evolution are: evolution as a ladder leading to humans (which predates Darwin), and the related idea that e.g., humans evolved from chimpanzees
  • Dennett on Colors
    what the metaphor is forWayfarer

    To help people understand natural selection: it is as if there were a breeder selecting suitable variations.

    Because it is assumed in all naturalistic accounts that there is no agency at work, and yet in the above, the metaphor is precisely one of agency, something that acts. This is the subtle duplicity at the heart of evolutionary biology qua philosophy.Wayfarer

    How is it duplicity if it's explicitly metaphorical?

    EDIT: sorry @Marchesk, this is off-topic
  • Emotional Reasoning
    Just use a single thread for all of them please.
  • Direct Realism as both True and False
    Yes, in fact I agree. But given Marchesk's definition of indirect perception as the perception of mental objects (as intermediaries between things "out there" and consciousness), one could say that an awareness of one's own perception is an example of indirect perception, in a manner of speaking. However, I'm not sure that this kind of awareness is what he means by "conscious perception".
  • Direct Realism as both True and False
    when I'm conscious of driving, the content of my perception is a conscious experience, which is mental. I'm no longer directly perceiving the car on the road. Instead, I'm perceiving a world of feels, sounds, colors, smells, and so on.Marchesk

    There's a missing premise here. You assume the equivalence of the content of perception and the objects of perception.

    But the content of perception--if it means anything at all--is the way things look, sound, taste, and yet it is the things that look, sound, and taste that way. To say that you are perceiving the way things look, sound, taste, is tantamount to saying you are perceiving your perception (one can attend to one's own perception, but this is not what you are talking about (or is it?)).

    Also, in an ecological direct perception account, the "non-conscious" absorption in an activity in an environment is paradigmatic of perception. To be conscious of one's experience sounds to me like those cases where one attends so much to one's own experience that successful absorption breaks down--as when you focus so much on what your hands and feet are doing that you momentarily lose the ability to drive.

    EDIT: maybe that means that I kind of agree with you, or at least with this: perception is sometimes direct and sometimes indirect
  • Dennett on Colors
    The feeling is a property of a system involving the perceiver in an environment, so no, I wouldn't accept your formulation.
  • Dennett on Colors
    No, it's the water that is the object of perception in cases both of feeling that's it's cold and feeling that it's warm.

    EDIT: in fact, the framework of direct vs indirect takes us down the wrong path here, I think. So yeah, temperature perception is a good example.
  • Dennett on Colors
    Therefore, our perception has a component that isn't in the water itself, since water can't feel cold or hot.Marchesk

    Well yes, perception is relational, depending on both perceiver and perceived (I'd also want to add the environment and the actions of the perceiver, but we can leave it aside for now).

    Temperature perception is variable in a way that colour perception is not, and this is expressed in the way we talk and think about hot/cold vs green/blue/red etc.
  • Dennett on Colors
    The reason for supposing the green is mental is because it's being generated in the brainMarchesk

    Our bodies (eyes, brain, etc) respond in specific ways to our environment. To me that doesn't make colour merely of the body. It is how we see things, and the way we see things is owing to the way our brains and eyes are (and how we behave). But still, it is the things that are green.

    NOTE: Haven't we been here before March, many many years ago? :rofl:
  • Dennett on Colors
    The relational account holds that the leaves themselves are green (under certain conditions etc). This entails that it is not something mental that is perceived, which is your definition of indirect perception.

    Thus direct perception on this account depends on both perceiver and perceived. As seems kind of obvious when you think about it.

    And if the fact that different perceivers perceive in different ways were enough to kill off direct perception as a philosophical position, then the fact that dogs can't see green would have resolved this issue a while ago.
  • Dennett on Colors
    I can't think of a way of saying it more clearly.
  • Dennett on Colors
    I think you're missing the point.
  • Dennett on Colors
    Because color and taste are in the brain, not out there in the world.Marchesk

    Why do you reject the relational account, under which colour is a property of perceived things, as perceived in a certain way in a certain environment?
  • Dennett on Colors
    Yes, but our experience isn't of the chemical makeup, but rather of color. And if that color occurs in the brain, then it's hard to see how we could be directly perceiving a red apple.Marchesk

    I don't see why. Evan Thompson's description is consistent with an account of perception that has been described as "direct". But then, different people mean different things by "direct perception". The substance of my post was the bit about colour being essentially relational.

    Perhaps not, but it does still leave all of Chalmers' arguments for the hard problem in play. How do we account for brain events having color experiences?Marchesk

    I'm not sure. With some kind of combination of evolutionary biology, ecology and phenomenology, I'd guess. That's handwaving, I know.
  • Dennett on Colors
    2. Does this entail that direct perception is false, being that secondary qualities (color, taste, etc.) are not properties of things themselves, but rather coding schemes that relate to the chemical makeup of sugar or reflective surfaces of leaves (using the two examples above)?Marchesk

    But the chemical makeup of sugar or reflective surfaces of leaves are properties of those coloured things.

    Being coloured a particular determinate colour or shade … is equivalent to having a particular spectral reflectance, illuminance, or emittance that looks that colour to a particular perceiver in specific viewing conditions. — Evan Thompson

    It's the leaves--not an "idea" or representation--that are green, but they only look green to certain perceiving beings in certain environments. Thus, colour is entirely relational. According to taste one could see this as a deficiency in the language--because of the way we use "colour", we can't say whether colour belongs solely to us or to the things we're looking at--or else one could see it as expressing the essentially relational nature of perception.

    3. We know that color experience is produced after the visual cortex is stimulated. This can the result of perception, memory, imagination, dream, magnetic cranial stimulation, etc. If a person's visual cortex is damaged enough, they lose all ability to have color experiences, including being able to remember colors. It's hard to avoid concluding that color experiences are generated by the brain. But that sounds like the makings of a cartesian theater, which Dennett has spent his career tearing down.Marchesk

    I don't think saying that the brain produces the experience of colour entails that there is an interior spectator. I imagine Dennett might say, not that the brain produces colours for us to look at internally, but that the relevant events in the brain just are those colour experiences. That's not how I would put it myself, but I don't think the Cartesian theatre is entailed either way.
  • Greetings
    I'm not sure if being thoughtful is the same as being philosophical, I only know that I do make my brain work a little bit extra, and I have the urge to exchange thoughts with others.

    I'm here hoping to be enlightened; and although I'd rather stay anonymous, I'd gladly make exceptions for minds I admire, and add them to my circle of friends. That would be the best rewards I could hope for!
    jaofao

    Seems like you'll be a good addition to the forum jaofao :smile:

    Welcome
  • The Shoutbox
    Well at least you knew who she was.

    :wink:
  • The News Discussion
    Realize, not realise. Who's been teaching you antiquated (look it up) English?Hanover

    In fact, -ize is older than -ise.

    I'm almost at a native level of speaking English [...] Ugh... I meant "less words"Benkei

    Fewer words.
  • Not-quarterly-any-more Fundraiser
    We currently have $196, and we have a number of monthly and quarterly subscriptions.

    Thanks all.
  • The Charade
    @CuddlyHedgehog @Sir2u

    Stop it. You want to behave like kids, go somewhere else.
  • The Shoutbox
    Would some motherfucker on this Board wish me a Happy Passover? Really? Just because my Lord and Savior didn't rise from the dead today doesn't mean I have no feelings.Hanover

    He gets crucified today, wakes up again on Sunday. Merry Passover.
  • What Is Contemporary Right-Wing Politics?
    Those who sat on the right in the National Assembly and in the assemblies that followed it were the nobility, and the monarchists. It seems to me that neither rightism nor conservatism are essentially (and transhistorically) pro-free-market.

    And there is the obvious fact that fascism is uncontroversially right-wing and yet is not especially pro-free-market, and has in fact often been explicitly against free markets.
  • The Shoutbox
    There was no poll.
  • The Shoutbox
    Was it in the lounge?Agustino

    It was not in the Lounge. It was in "Interesting stuff".

    I haven't seen the thread, but from the title, it doesn't seem "worthless".Agustino

    Shows how much you can tell from the title.
  • The Shoutbox
    How come the ethnicity thread got deleted?Mr Phil O'Sophy

    It was worthless. Four pages of garbage.
  • Sergei Skripal: Conspiracy or Not?
    I love conspiracy theories. They always get people to think more deeply about a problem rather than just listen to the official reports.René Descartes

    Somewhat off-topic, but...

    In my experience the opposite is true. Conspiracy theories appeal rather to those who want neat, logical answers, in which motivations are clear and intentions are cleanly carried through. They want a world that isn't messy like real life. Their thinking is anything but deep. Conspiracy theories are cartoon facts.
  • The Shoutbox
    I use Slack for work and I love it, but I don't really see the benefit for TPF. Even if it were free.