• Michael
    10.2k
    Same response. To the extent I'm a hypocrite or a scoundrel of any type is irrelevant to my comments in this thread.Hanover

    But not irrelevant to Arkady's comment to which I responded.
  • Mongrel
    3k
    Ought parents pay their kids' tuition with the expectation that they're buying control?
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    4.7k
    If my daughter walked out, at least I'd know she had conviction.Benkei

    I am not sure how showing respect for someone, whether we like them or not, is showing a lack of personal conviction but that is your circle to square.

    Where you would praise your daughter for walking out based on her convictions, I would praise my son for being able to maintain his composure, showing respect and handling himself like the young gentleman he has been raised to be.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    4.7k
    Ought parents pay their kids' tuition with the expectation that they're buying control?Mongrel

    That is a very good question Mongrel, one that is testing my long held belief that I know better than to place the responsibility of my expectations on anyone other than myself. For I have learned through too many disappointments, that by misplacing my expectations onto someone else, I am setting myself up to be disappointed. Instead, I usually embrace the idea that with no expectations of others, I am rarely, if ever, disappointed in how something turns out and on occasion I am pleasantly surprised by the actions of others.

    But now you have me wondering why, that personally held philosophy, is not being applied to my children. It is entirely possible that I am expecting him to conduct himself properly, my expectation, until he is off on his own, paying his own bills.

    As a side note, yesterday afternoon, my youngest indian received his letter of acceptance to the one school he wishes to attend and that is Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University . Needless to say we are extremely proud of the him and all the work he has put in, to achieve the goal of becoming a Riddler. Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University where it really is Rocket Science!
  • Mongrel
    3k
    It is entirely possible that I am expecting him to conduct himself properly, my expectation, until he is off on his own, paying his own bills.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    While you're paying his bills, you want him to do what you would do. Once he can pay his own bills, then you will recognize that he is a separate individual capable to making his own decisions.

    I just sat through 2.5 hours of speechifying regarding error prevention (in the healthcare setting). One of the topics was: "Why do people fail to speak out when they notice that something is wrong?"

    What sort of protest would you find acceptable for a new college grad?
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    While you're paying his bills, you want him to do what you would do. Once he can pay his own bills, then you will recognize that he is a separate individual capable to making his own decisions.Mongrel
    This is a very neurotic way to go about things. First of all, I think a child should be treated like a partnership - not like a slave. In a partnership there are give and takes. There's no "you want him to do this" and that's the end. You need him for the future, he's his own person - you don't want to alienate him by being an ass. (furthermore, he may rightfully choose not to go to college in the first place if you're going to be such an ass about it - or be vengeful about it in the future)

    It's much more effective to make him feel indebted to you. Grandmothers are very effective at doing this. A bright red letter pops in your mail, your granny's handwriting on it. You flip it open, read how much she misses you because you haven't visited lately, and boom - you feel guilty and schedule your next visit ;)
  • Arkady
    762
    My condolences to the victims of yesterday's bombing at the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester (22 dead and counting thus far, plus scores of wounded). I had initially suspected that this was the work of radical Anglicans (could you blame me?), but when an Islamist group claimed responsibility and the prime suspect was identified as a second-generation Libyan named Salmon Abedi, I was forced to revise this belief. Just goes to show that one oughtn't jump to conclusions.
  • Hanover
    7.5k
    It is not heroic to speak up every time you disagree with someone. Sometimes you really aren't the most important person in the room. You can be civil without abandoning your beliefs.

    Just some platitudes that more recent generations find annoying.
  • Hanover
    7.5k
    of all, I think a child should be treated like a partnership - not like a slave.Agustino

    A child should be treated neither like a partner nor a slave, but like a child.
  • Mongrel
    3k
    It's all about me.
  • Benkei
    5k
    I am not sure how showing respect for someone, whether we like them or not, is showing a lack of personal conviction but that is your circle to square.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    That's not what I said.

    And you forget the paragraphs before that on the issue whether we should accord everyone with respect and whether we should expect that in situations from people who had no say on who shows up and should then be forced to choose between not attending at all or this. The speaker and speakees aren't on the same level here, one sends, the other is condemned to listen; there's no equality.

    So again; Ancona? Yes, no, why?

    Personally, I'd hope everybody stands up and walks out on a speech by a known racist. I'm not saying I would walk out on Pence but I certainly recognise that some people think he's bad enough that they cannot in good conscience remain seated. Instead of saying they're disrespectful (which is just another way of dismissing their voice) we can respect their choices and their silent voices.
  • Hanover
    7.5k
    Personally, I'd hope everybody stands up and walks out on a speech by a known racist.Benkei

    Sure, except now everyone on the right is known as a racist by the left.
  • Michael
    10.2k
    Sure, except now everyone on the right is known as a racist by the left.Hanover

    And every Muslim is known as a terrorist by the right. ;)
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    A child should be treated neither like a partner nor a slave, but like a child.Hanover
    Well a "child" who goes to college isn't exactly a child anymore. He should be treated like an adult. Earning money right away shouldn't be a requirement for decent treatment. Or else, when the "child" does start earning money big time, you may see $0 of it. People are often stupid - they underestimate their reliance on others, and put too much emphasis on current conditions, and too little on future contingencies. What if you as a parent end up having ALS and being stuck to a bed - who will take care of you then, if not your child? This murderous parenting attitude of "treat him like a child" is very prevalent, and does more harm than good to both parents and children by fostering hatred between them. And no, good intentions don't cut it. Good intentions coupled with stupidity are worse than bad intentions coupled with indifference.
  • Benkei
    5k
    Sure, except now everyone on the right is known as a racist by the left.Hanover

    Apart from the fact this has little to do with what I said, this is a caricature as well.

    That said, what is "the right" in your opinion? The alt-right is pretty xenophobic in practise. Social and cultural conservatism tend towards discrimination as a logical consequence of their aim to maintain a status quo (or even move backwards). There's an issue with progressives, because those people are for change. But also with people too different to be considered part of their social or cultural "ideal". This could be gays, hispanics, blacks or muslims or whatever, depending on what they believe. As a result, it is much more likely that racists identify themselves as "right" instead of "left" but you can't conclude from that, that the "right" is racist.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    It's true we have to educate people to live better lives, but it's also true that (given current circumstances) people also have to educate themselves if they want to live good lives.
  • S
    11.8k
    We don't need no education.
  • Michael
    10.2k
    We don't need no education.Sapientia

    We don't need no thought control.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    We don't need no education.Sapientia
    >:O Yes, if you define education as what you learn in school (as that song does, if i remember their video correctly :P )

    But you definitely need self-education, studying and applying things you learn by yourself.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    Nothing stops you from going to the library, borrowing books, and learning whatever you want.
  • Michael
    10.2k
    Nothing stops you from going to the library, borrowing books, and learning whatever you want.Agustino

    Libraries lose a quarter of staff as hundreds close.

    Thanks Obama.
  • S
    11.8k
    Also, "we don't need no self-education, studying and applying things you learn by yourself" wouldn't have been as catchy.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    Funnily enough the point of that song (to me at least) was to think for yourself ;)
  • S
    11.8k
    We don't need no thought control.Michael

    Hey! Socrates! Leave those kids alone!
  • Michael
    10.2k
    All in all you're just another shadow on the wall.
  • Cavacava
    2.4k
    New American Gothic

    xdqadvxr2xdea8xb.png
  • Hanover
    7.5k
    A child is to be raised to be a good person, not as a potential safety net if your life takes a downturn. I'd expect a good person would care for his parents, but any parent who raises his kid specifically to protect that parent's future interests is not such a good parent.
  • Agustino
    11.3k
    A child is to be raised to be a good person, not as a potential safety net if your life takes a downturn. I'd expect a good person would care for his parents, but any parent who raises his kid specifically to protect that parent's future interests is not such a good parent.Hanover
    Why not? That's the job. To create a social mechanism/body (the family) which takes care of itself in perpetuity. We are interdependent - so we must acknowledge our interdependence and arrange things such that all of us are safe and can support each other if necessary.
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